Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB

Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/index.php)
-   Wheels | Tires | Spacers | Hub -- Sponsored by The Tire Rack (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=24)
-   -   TRD brace set, or Cusco? (https://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9130)

TuxedoCartman 06-19-2012 09:00 AM
TRD brace set, or Cusco?
 
I rarely find myself this stumped on parts selection for my ride, but here I am: I can't decide between the TRD Member Brace Set (the red set, seen here), or the same parts from Cusco's Powerbrace line (seen here).

On the one hand, Cusco makes some damn fine parts; I used some of their suspension components on my 03 WRX I owned, and was happy with most of them. However, I know some of their stuff can be poorly thought-out (such as the underbody braces they made for the WRX that didn't fit if you had a cat-back exhaust), and sometimes seem a bit... lightweight... for structural support duty. Still, they race with the parts they design, and seem to do pretty well at it, and their parts are cheaper and seemingly easier to get at the moment.

On the other hand, TRD is in-house Toyota, so they've got a head-start on access to the car, and insight from the engineers no other company has. Their brace set seems to be beefier, and of heavier grade steel (which I'm conflicted on, as weight is bad for sports driving, but good for functioning as a chassis brace). Also impressed by their proactive release of a statement explaining why they didn't release some suspension components offered by "other" car tuners; apparently they didn't produce a rear strut-bar because they felt it would upset the chassis balance. Between that and the superior design of their front-strut tower bar, I tend to trust their designs a lot more. (Actually have the TRD front strut-bar on order already). However, TRD has a bit of a reputation for offering very mild performace parts, and banking on their Toyota name association for sales.

So I dunno... For those of you out there with experience with both companies, who would you go with for chassis bracing parts? :iono:

(P.S. Not looking for opinions on whether chassis braces are altogether dumb, or what other parts you think I should be buying, etc... If that's all you've got to contribute to this thread, kindly move along.)

wcbjr 06-19-2012 10:24 AM
Skip em both and wait for Whiteline. They build the beefiest suspension components and braces for cheap.

jkonquer 06-20-2012 02:34 AM
Are you looking for show or go? Order goes from trd to cusco to whiteline.

TuxedoCartman 06-20-2012 06:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkonquer (Post 267847)
Are you looking for show or go? Order goes from trd to cusco to whiteline.
Definitely "go". These particular parts don't lend themselves well to showing off very well. :)

Really? Am i reading you right, that you feel the Cusco braces are more purpose built? Any particular reasons you've got to support that theory?

cyde01 06-20-2012 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 265878)
However, TRD has a bit of a reputation for offering very mild performace parts, and banking on their Toyota name association for sales.
that's TRD USA only no? i was under the impression that TRD Japan has a reputation of offering the absolute best stuff, at baller prices.

7thgear 06-20-2012 02:47 PM
it's all metal

go with whoever uses better steel and better powder coating

TuxedoCartman 06-20-2012 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyde01 (Post 268675)
that's TRD USA only no? i was under the impression that TRD Japan has a reputation of offering the absolute best stuff, at baller prices.
Ya know, I'll be honest with you: I used to know quite a bit about quality of all the products available for Subarus and Mazdas, as I've owned a couple of each. But this is my first, err... "Toyota"... I've owned (don't look at me that way, Subaru drivers! It was co-developed!), so I've really no clue about the quality of TRD from either country, nor any of the other manufacturers that specialize in Toyota parts. But I'd heard the same thing about TRD America being mediocre, and TRD Japan being better, but who knows. That's why I thought I'd see if someone had first-hand experience on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 268710)
it's all metal

go with whoever uses better steel and better powder coating
Ya know, neither one of them specifies just what grade of metal they use on their product pages, neither in English nor Japanese (yes, I can read quite a bit). If it had been that simple, I coulda figured it out on my own. :thumbsup:

7thgear 06-20-2012 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 268741)
Ya know, neither one of them specifies just what grade of metal they use on their product pages, neither in English nor Japanese (yes, I can read quite a bit). If it had been that simple, I coulda figured it out on my own. :thumbsup:
have you tried asking them?

cyde01 06-20-2012 03:24 PM
don't have any first hand experience, but i do know that TRD USA just rebranded parts from other cheap aftermarket brands, which kind of ruined the TRD brand name in america. but TRD parts in japan are legendary. TRD LSDs, carbon fiber body parts, headers, for cars like the AE86 were all highly sought after even after they were discontinued, they had practically holy grail status. TRD engines like the 4A-GE and 3S-GE were insane, itbs, cams with insane duration, 9000 rpm redlines, extremely high comp ratios, dry sump oil systems. the TRD 4A-GE made 200 hp from a 1.6 liter motor, the 2.0 liter 3S-GE made 280 hp, both n/a.

based on the reviews i've seen of the full TRD GT86, i can assure you that the parts are made by the same people, they're definitely legit.

xcelir8brz 06-20-2012 04:00 PM
subscribed

TuxedoCartman 06-20-2012 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 268760)
have you tried asking them?
Nope; taking this in order of easiest to hardest. First asking around to see if anyone has experience with these companies, THEN moving on to calling two Japanese car parts manufacturers and asking them about their production methods and metallurgical practices.

So... do you have any experience with chassis braces by either of these companies, or are you just criticizing me for not pulling my answers up by their own bootstraps?

7thgear 06-20-2012 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 269033)
So... do you have any experience with chassis braces by either of these companies, or are you just criticizing me for not pulling my answers up by their own bootstraps?
i'm merely making fun of the fact that you're digging too deep into this.

these are metal rectangles with holes in them

:bonk:

dabocx 06-20-2012 05:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7thgear (Post 269041)
i'm merely making fun of the fact that you're digging too deep into this.

these are EXPENSIVE metal rectangles with holes in them

:bonk:
Added a important part. Regardless of the brand its going to be a decent chunk of change and its not a bad idea to do some research and try and get the most for your money

Surok 06-20-2012 07:42 PM
Go the TRD, the more TRD stuff we buy the more they will support the car..

Mitch 06-20-2012 08:57 PM
I'm new to this from the BMW world. Are these cars just have that much chassis flex? Other than the factory subframe brace and strut bars that were fully welded or allowed for pre-tensioning, not a lot of people even bothered with this kind of stuff. Does $1000 in chassis braces have the same impact as $1000 in shocks?

Dimman 06-20-2012 09:39 PM
Depends if you like red or blue better.

TuxedoCartman 06-21-2012 01:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dabocx (Post 269066)
Added a important part. Regardless of the brand its going to be a decent chunk of change and its not a bad idea to do some research and try and get the most for your money
:word:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surok (Post 269299)
Go the TRD, the more TRD stuff we buy the more they will support the car..
Good point. Unfortunately, though, I'll be buying the JDM version from Japan, so they won't have any new data telling them how much Americans like this sort of thing. Might not hurt to write them, though, and inform them of such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mitch (Post 269448)
I'm new to this from the BMW world. Are these cars just have that much chassis flex? Other than the factory subframe brace and strut bars that were fully welded or allowed for pre-tensioning, not a lot of people even bothered with this kind of stuff. Does $1000 in chassis braces have the same impact as $1000 in shocks?
No, there's actually very, very little flex in stock form. But if you plan on driving the car hard, AND keeping it for a while, bracing can prevent a chassis from wearing out or showing its age down the road. Ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure... does that qualify as weight reduction? LOL... :D

fatoni 06-21-2012 01:07 AM
if you really are about go and not show, there are dozens of ways to better spend your money. also, it is likely that trd did not make a rear strut brace because the frs does not have rear struts

TuxedoCartman 06-21-2012 01:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 269906)
if you really are about go and not show, there are dozens of ways to better spend your money. also, it is likely that trd did not make a rear strut brace because the frs does not have rear struts
<face-palm> See opening post where I said I'm looking for comparisons on these two items, NOT advice on what other parts you think I should be buying.

And the car may not have rear struts, but that doesn't stop Cusco from offering, quote, "Rear Strut Tower Bar." I'm sure you knew what was being referred to, but it's easier to be snarky on the internet than to weigh in with anything useful. :thumbdown:

Edit: side note here: why do people consider chassis bracing for this car "show"? You can't even SEE most of this stuff once it's installed. Hell, both TRD and Cusco had to take the whole rear of the car apart just to give a glimpse as to how the bumper brace is installed. Do you guys really think I'm buying these so I can pull into a PepBoys parking lot, pop the hood, and give all the fanbois wood?

fatoni 06-21-2012 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 269929)
<face-palm> See opening post where I said I'm looking for comparisons on these two items, NOT advice on what other parts you think I should be buying.

And the car may not have rear struts, but that doesn't stop Cusco from offering, quote, "Rear Strut Tower Bar." I'm sure you knew what was being referred to, but it's easier to be snarky on the internet than to weigh in with anything useful. :thumbdown:

Edit: side note here: why do people consider chassis bracing for this car "show"? You can't even SEE most of this stuff once it's installed. Hell, both TRD and Cusco had to take the whole rear of the car apart just to give a glimpse as to how the bumper brace is installed. Do you guys really think I'm buying these so I can pull into a PepBoys parking lot, pop the hood, and give all the fanbois wood?
the only reason i mentioned other ways to spend money is because you say you are about go. saying you are about go and then not wanting upgrades that are cheaper and infinitely more effective doesnt make much sense

i dont know about you but i think offering a strut bar where there are no struts seems like it cant be for anything other than show. why dont you just the objectives that each part accomplishes? what are you trying to accomplish with these parts? id be surprised if they made you any faster and will likely just bump you into a crazy racing class. what kind of advice are you expecting on two products that havent both been owned by a single person on this forum and more importantly provide no data or testing on the products?

but ill go away...good luck on your endeavor

Dimman 06-21-2012 02:01 AM
Loads are still being fed into shock towers regardless of suspension design. That being said, the whole purpose of reducing chassis flex is about precision of the suspension. I don't think it will be worth significant gains until after sticky tires and other mods. But if precision is the priority I think bushings would be a better starting point.

So until you have a lot of complimentary mods, just pick the colour you like better, or name you like saying better.

TuxedoCartman 06-21-2012 02:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 269959)
the only reason i mentioned other ways to spend money is because you say you are about go. saying you are about go and then not wanting upgrades that are cheaper and infinitely more effective doesnt make much sense
Have I said at any point that these are the only upgrades I'm performing? Have I led anybody to believe that I'm not looking at sway-bars, or will never install coilovers or stiffer bushings? By stiffening my chassis, have I forfeited all right to a turbocharger kit when it becomes available? No? Then why are you weighing in with nothing more than your useless opinion on how I'm upgrading my car, especially when I stated right at the start that I wasn't looking for such opinions? If you think that's dumb, and want more powah, or to tune your ride a different way... go buy one, and have at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fatoni (Post 269959)
i dont know about you but i think offering a strut bar where there are no struts seems like it cant be for anything other than show. why dont you just the objectives that each part accomplishes? what are you trying to accomplish with these parts? id be surprised if they made you any faster and will likely just bump you into a crazy racing class. what kind of advice are you expecting on two products that havent both been owned by a single person on this forum and more importantly provide no data or testing on the products?
Cusco chose the term "rear strut bar" because that's what it's commonly called; probably to make differentiating it from the other two rear-chassis braces they offer a bit easier. One day maybe you'll learn too that not every modification you can perform on a car is solely to make you faster; a lot of times it can be just for reliability, and other times it's just to improve the characteristics of the drive. Having seen how STRUT-bars affect the handling of some vehicles, yes... sometimes they make a car faster, but sometimes they just make it more fun. (Sometimes they do nothing at all, but I won't know till I get one on here and see for myself).

As for asking for advice on products on this forum... yes, I can name at least one person who has experience with the Cusco braces on this exact car. And this may come as a surprise to you, but... CUSCO AND TRD MAKE PRODUCTS FOR OTHER CARS TOO!!! <gasp!> Shocking, right? See, my message was aimed at those out there who've had Cusco Powerbraces on their RX-7's and WRX's, and TRD Member Braces on their Supras and MR2's. If one person says, "Yeah, I had the TRD on my Celica, and it was solid!" and another says, "Meh, the Cusco stuff on my STi was warped after a year"... then I can use my brain-meats, and figure out that this might... might... be indicative of future results on the FR-S.

But I forgot... I'm on the internet. Worse, I'm on a car forum. My bad. :slap:

fatoni 06-21-2012 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 270013)
Have I said at any point that these are the only upgrades I'm performing? Have I led anybody to believe that I'm not looking at sway-bars, or will never install coilovers or stiffer bushings? By stiffening my chassis, have I forfeited all right to a turbocharger kit when it becomes available? No? Then why are you weighing in with nothing more than your useless opinion on how I'm upgrading my car, especially when I stated right at the start that I wasn't looking for such opinions? If you think that's dumb, and want more powah, or to tune your ride a different way... go buy one, and have at it.



Cusco chose the term "rear strut bar" because that's what it's commonly called; probably to make differentiating it from the other two rear-chassis braces they offer a bit easier. One day maybe you'll learn too that not every modification you can perform on a car is solely to make you faster; a lot of times it can be just for reliability, and other times it's just to improve the characteristics of the drive. Having seen how STRUT-bars affect the handling of some vehicles, yes... sometimes they make a car faster, but sometimes they just make it more fun. (Sometimes they do nothing at all, but I won't know till I get one on here and see for myself).

As for asking for advice on products on this forum... yes, I can name at least one person who has experience with the Cusco braces on this exact car. And this may come as a surprise to you, but... CUSCO AND TRD MAKE PRODUCTS FOR OTHER CARS TOO!!! <gasp!> Shocking, right? See, my message was aimed at those out there who've had Cusco Powerbraces on their RX-7's and WRX's, and TRD Member Braces on their Supras and MR2's. If one person says, "Yeah, I had the TRD on my Celica, and it was solid!" and another says, "Meh, the Cusco stuff on my STi was warped after a year"... then I can use my brain-meats, and figure out that this might... might... be indicative of future results on the FR-S.

But I forgot... I'm on the internet. Worse, I'm on a car forum. My bad. :slap:
no need to overreact. im not instigating. it might be worth considering that products for other cars have nothing to do with the products for the frs in the same fashion that it isnt fair to use experience with a corolla when explaining the frs. what i was saying about owning the products was that i doubt people have owned or driven both. what good does a comparison do if you only experience with one? strut bars can alter the precision feel of a car i admit. i had one on my ae86, but that was a 30 year old car and it also had struts. the rear shocks are not going to bear any load that a macpherson strut would see. i was simply pointing out that you probably shouldnt trust a company that fails to see the difference (or thinks that the consumer fails to see the difference).

how stiff do you need the chassis to be? all these braces seem to me like they are a relic from car culture past. cars are built more rigid each and every year. the interior light in my corolla used to come on under heavy loads, there i can see that helping but cars now...im not trying to start an internet fight so again, good luck in your search. i hope you get what you are looking for

cyde01 06-21-2012 02:39 AM
lol for someone "not trying to start an internet fight" you came on pretty heavy with the haterade for a while there. @OP, why don't you ask moto directly? he has cusco parts installed on his FRS and i'm sure he's had experience with TRD parts on his AE86.

jkonquer 06-21-2012 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 268100)
Definitely "go". These particular parts don't lend themselves well to showing off very well. :)

Really? Am i reading you right, that you feel the Cusco braces are more purpose built? Any particular reasons you've got to support that theory?
Im talking in general overall perspective of between these companies. As trd tend to make more mildy tuned suspension parts and cusco tend have more customization suspension parts. But when you look at simple parts such as strut brace, there isnt a much difference between one and another. Therefore i would go with something that looks better. Things to look for when buying strut brace are least amount of flexes, thick top mount, and possibly triangle support.

Also remember. Most of the cusco parts are Not designed ground up from the specific car, they are usually part designed on different car made to fit on specific cars. So as far as R&D, i would say trd has more time on

VersionUp 06-21-2012 01:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkonquer (Post 270633)

Also remember. Most of the cusco parts are Not designed ground up from the specific car, they are usually part designed on different car made to fit on specific cars. So as far as R&D, i would say trd has more time on
You are 100% absolutely wrong. ALL Cusco products are developed chassis specific. TRD doesn't have a real advantage 'cause they couldn't produce an "aftermarket" product until the platform is finished. And TRD also shares their specs and data to Cusco, and Cusco actually do R&D with products with more "stress tolerance" for racing.

Hanakuso 06-21-2012 03:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VersionUp (Post 270670)
You are 100% absolutely wrong. ALL Cusco products are developed chassis specific. TRD doesn't have a real advantage 'cause they couldn't produce an "aftermarket" product until the platform is finished. And TRD also shares their specs and data to Cusco, and Cusco actually do R&D with products with more "stress tolerance" for racing.
I'm willing to bet TRD does have the advantage. They most likely have all the access to prior R&D and all the info that went into the car

jkonquer 06-21-2012 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VersionUp (Post 270670)
You are 100% absolutely wrong. ALL Cusco products are developed chassis specific. TRD doesn't have a real advantage 'cause they couldn't produce an "aftermarket" product until the platform is finished. And TRD also shares their specs and data to Cusco, and Cusco actually do R&D with products with more "stress tolerance" for racing.
I dont know how much "racing" experience you have, but most of people will not use cusco suspension due to the lack of "stress tolerance" for racing. I for one had all cusco parts and now i have none. I see their parts fail all the time. Their products werent made with much thought into it

Seriously, cusco parts are mainly for show, just look at their cage, chassis/bumper braces, and etc. if you still believe that cusco parts are made for full on racing, i got nothing more to say

VersionUp 06-21-2012 09:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkonquer (Post 271056)
I dont know how much "racing" experience you have, but most of people will not use cusco suspension due to the lack of "stress tolerance" for racing. I for one had all cusco parts and now i have none. I see their parts fail all the time. Their products werent made with much thought into it

Seriously, cusco parts are mainly for show, just look at their cage, chassis/bumper braces, and etc. if you still believe that cusco parts are made for full on racing, i got nothing more to say
So that is where you're basing your opinion?

So you think these Cusco engineers sit in a meeting room tinkering on what existing part they have on the market that they can hack out to make it fit in another model?:lol:

I've a lot of Cusco before and not a single failure. Purchase your Cusco products from an authorized dealer not from eBay. LoL.

oh BTW "racing" experience- just TRD NASCAR program. And yea we suck, we like blowing engines up. :bonk:

illusivema70 10-07-2012 02:43 AM
Cusco FTW!
 
from my experience and it was mentioned previously, TRD is rebadged "insert company specializing in specific product here". Springs used to be and still might be Eibach etc. Intake contract expired with a certain company a few years ago. with that being said I am sure the product does what it is intended to do, the difference is how long and how well. I have had and still have TRD exhaust and braces for Celica and Supras. I will tell you I was impressed and pissed, when stuff failed where is the support? replacement parts? what do you mean discontinued? either way TRD is good.

Cusco now....well I love their products!! I have had their braces on my Supra for a long time, no corrosion, no breakage and no issues of any sort and I have had them since 2004 with hard track days and autox. I now have them on my FRS and whoever said there is no benefits and that automakers build a rigid car towards where it makes them unnecessary.....uhhhh wrong! you can feel the difference going over speed bumps! I beat the car up and a few track days already without and with braces and I will tell you I am so glad I have the Cusco product on my ride. it makes the suspension cycle like it is designed to and lets you feel like you are in TOTAL control at all times.

sorry for the long response and I hope I made sense, Cusco 1st, TRD 1.5 lol. I unfortunately can't respond on Whiteline though. no experience with.

Ravenlokk 10-07-2012 04:26 AM
old thread is old! /troll

switchlanez 10-07-2012 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VersionUp (Post 270670)
You are 100% absolutely wrong. ALL Cusco products are developed chassis specific. TRD doesn't have a real advantage 'cause they couldn't produce an "aftermarket" product until the platform is finished. And TRD also shares their specs and data to Cusco, and Cusco actually do R&D with products with more "stress tolerance" for racing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by illusivema70 (Post 481258)
from my experience and it was mentioned previously, TRD is rebadged "insert company specializing in specific product here". Springs used to be and still might be Eibach etc. Intake contract expired with a certain company a few years ago. with that being said I am sure the product does what it is intended to do, the difference is how long and how well. I have had and still have TRD exhaust and braces for Celica and Supras. I will tell you I was impressed and pissed, when stuff failed where is the support? replacement parts? what do you mean discontinued? either way TRD is good.

Cusco now....well I love their products!! I have had their braces on my Supra for a long time, no corrosion, no breakage and no issues of any sort and I have had them since 2004 with hard track days and autox. I now have them on my FRS and whoever said there is no benefits and that automakers build a rigid car towards where it makes them unnecessary.....uhhhh wrong! you can feel the difference going over speed bumps! I beat the car up and a few track days already without and with braces and I will tell you I am so glad I have the Cusco product on my ride. it makes the suspension cycle like it is designed to and lets you feel like you are in TOTAL control at all times.

sorry for the long response and I hope I made sense, Cusco 1st, TRD 1.5 lol. I unfortunately can't respond on Whiteline though. no experience with.
Guys, be careful which TRD you are referring to. TRD Japan has had access to this car since early development. I prefer their parts over any other aftermarket company including TRD USA. I've had TRD USA Celica parts... with clangy springs/struts, snapped brackets, and other people have had their TRD USA exhausts bust open on them. And I've seen some posts on this forum comment on less than reliable TRD USA supercharger kits for other cars. But TRD Japan stuff... man... that's some well thought out engineering. They develop parts in-house or with a tuning arm such as Sportivo which ends up stamped on the parts (I've had a complete TRD Sportivo suspension kit for my MR-S). I'd say TRD Japan is more thought out than Cusco and here's why...

Cusco's stuff tends to beefier than TRD. There is such a thing as too beefy/stiff. If a company offers thicker sway bars but nothing else to complement that upgrade then it's up to you to figure to upgrade your end links and/or replace your rubber mounts with urethane (I've had a sway bar mounting bracket break on me). You may need one, the other, or both. Sometimes a basic bolt will be your weakest link (in which case you'd need to overbore stock screw holes to fit bigger bolts which I've had to do) which sucks. TRD designs everything to work with OEM parts or will include any necessary bits to support your upgrade as a kit. People tend to frown upon how TRD comes out with more conservative parts (not beefy enough, needs MoAR LoW, etc.). Well... yeah... but you'll be happier with it in the long term because they design for reliability and not so scrape your front lip everywhere you go.

GT86_PRAGUE 12-05-2014 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TuxedoCartman (Post 269929)
<face-palm> See opening post where I said I'm looking for comparisons on these two items, NOT advice on what other parts you think I should be buying.

And the car may not have rear struts, but that doesn't stop Cusco from offering, quote, "Rear Strut Tower Bar." I'm sure you knew what was being referred to, but it's easier to be snarky on the internet than to weigh in with anything useful. :thumbdown:

Edit: side note here: why do people consider chassis bracing for this car "show"? You can't even SEE most of this stuff once it's installed. Hell, both TRD and Cusco had to take the whole rear of the car apart just to give a glimpse as to how the bumper brace is installed. Do you guys really think I'm buying these so I can pull into a PepBoys parking lot, pop the hood, and give all the fanbois wood?
So, whichone did you got?

MaxxCann 01-12-2016 12:58 PM
I installed the JDM TRD member brace kit and I can take 90 degree corners at 45 mph + with nearly no body roll. I also have most of the TRD suspension stuff except the sway bars, and to be honest I don't know if it's all in my head, but it looks tough as shit!!!!


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:15 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.3.0 (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2026 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.


Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.