Rigid Collars?
 

Ok, I'm starting another thread so I don't crash the party in the other thread.

Are these for real? This seems like snake oil to me. I've removed subframes and other than a witness mark from where the bolt head contacted there's no marks at all. If the subframe were moving, even slightly, there would be indications of that, wear patters in the paint. But there isn't. Every time I try to look for a review of these things it's always an overly detailed and long winded review, which leaves me wondering about the motivation of the reviewer.

Can any of the OG's on here attest to the effectiveness of these?

Please see this thread http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90452

Lots of information there, as well as a video.

I think that's the party he doesn't want to crash.

Ahhh :bonk:

The info there looked pretty informative.

I believe the CSG guys use some sort of collar and could inform you with a somewhat unbiased opinion. They are very knowledgeable on everything ZN6 related.

Here's part of what makes me thing this might be bull shit:

https://youtu.be/zWyUD6UXfog?t=2m48s

Watch the video carefully it's pretty obvious that the cars were originally traveling at different speeds and the video speeds were adjusted to make them look the same. In the bottom image you can see a sort of ghost image as the tire is approaching the bump, but as the car drops off the car drops off the bump the ghosting slows and stops. Also, the two cars aren't perfectly lined up so it's hard to tell, but it looks like the bottom car starts to lag behind more at the end. To me, it looks like they sped the car up a little in the bottom image so it wouldn't come to a complete stop and used the brakes to prevent the rebound.

But I'm not a professional.

The subframe is moving because of the softer rubber bushings (you won't see "signs" of wear)... the idea is to remove the slop. I did the whiteline rear and you can ABSOLUTELY feel the difference when you go into a corner. The entire rear end is more planted and solid.

Apples & oranges. The front subframe doesn't have any bushings. That's what is in question here. It's clear that the rear subframe benefits from harder bushings rigid collars, what ever to prevent movement, but is the front subframe actually moving? I have no idea. I've dropped countless subframes in FB & FC Rx-7s -which are also hard mounted, and I've never seen signs of movement.


Will it make a difference? Probably. Is that difference quantifiable? Probably not.

Gotcha. :D

*We have not done any quantitative testing on these and this is not the view of STILLEN*

I have personally driven a BRZ before and after the rigid collar installation. I can definitely feel a difference. It is hard to describe completely, but the car does feel more solid with them and the front suspension felt a little more responsive.

SpeedHunters did a review on them as well. Can probably find it with the Googlez ;)

I don't think rigidity or prevention of movement are the goals of this product at all. From what i understood, the collars center the subframe on its mounting holes, and ensure that the subframe is parallel to the monocoque, which would add symmetry to the alignment. Rigidity would be helped a little bit by pre-stressing the mounting locations in the presence or absence of tolerance stack up.

It absolutely is. It's so obviously different on a car with an exhaust that even someone who is not into cars at all will notice a difference. The giveaway is that because everything is now "attached", the harmonic resonance frequency of the entire car changes.

Every car has a resonance frequency where stuff just... vibrates, and an exhaust helps reveal this vibration. At a certain RPM, you'll notice vibrations. Once rigid collars are in, that RPM where stuff vibrates changes.

CSG David's had Rigid collars on his s2k before the FT86 was even around.

Well unless you can provide numbers which show the reduction in variation between L&R suspension movements before and after install, or an increase in chassis rigidity, or etc etc... then these are in fact not quantifiable. You can give all sorts of qualifying statements that these, without a doubt, increase handling feel and chassis response. I, with no doubt, believe that these work and will help change the way the car feels, but providing quantitative data that says so would prove to be difficult.


That being said, I want some, and I want them now. I'm supposed to get aligned on Friday for the event at Big Willow on 7/11. When can I come pick them up? LOL

That level of data is far, far beyond CSG's budget, so it won't be happening, at least, not from us.

The harmonic frequency analysis is so obvious that a quantified log isn't necessary. It's THAT obvious.

Well put!

It's not going to prevent your front subframe from sliding around, because it's not currently sliding around.

The front subframe is rigidly attached, but from people's pictures, it isn't always well-centered. Precisely aligning the mounting points will make your geometry more symmetric. That's a good thing (except for your alignment tech who can't use this as adjustment anymore). 1 mm can be a big distance when you're talking about finicky suspension points.

These collars are very unlikely to hurt performance... but there's no guarantee they will help significantly either. The value that a resonant frequency shift presents is up to you. :thumbsup:

Agreed. I was just stating that people aren't going to get "dyno numbers." This is one of those mods that you have to feel to believe. Most people on this site think they want this, but it's not going to help their hella stance moarlow status.

This assumes that the holes in both pieces are so precisely located that centered is going to be perfect. Again I see the possibility for fault with this line if thinking. One of the reasons for the large holes is to allow for tolerances in the manufacturing process. Without the large holes on a small number of cars it wouldn't be possible to center the subframe. Unless the tolerances for a subframe have decreased significantly.

Brah, it's one more sticker to add to the roll call - Rigid Collars.

I am also skeptical of these rigid collars as well, hopefully if the CSG GP comes through, i can give my invaluable inputs.

My car drones more than before. When it had stock suspension, the ride quality was validated by the aging grandparents while driving over cobblestones. Yes I was a **** at the time, but they asked if something happened to the car to make it more comfortable. So yes...it does work, but now my car (zero sound deadening material from the factory) drones more. FML

Every features has tolerances, and the stack-up is probably quite significant, given how many parts that bolt goes through.

On top of that... the hole size needs to allow for decent alignment after a certain amount of frame damage/bending. I wouldn't be surprised if there were validation requirement for serviceable structural members. Something like "Subject 6 DUTs to 30 mph front-end collisions. Remove and reinstall the structural member 10 times. Insertion force shall be less than 20 lbs. Torque required to fully mate the component to each mounting surface shall not exceed 80% of torque specified in the service manual."

I'm curious how much "serviceability" is designed into our vehicles, because Toyota has quite the reputation... and it's probably not a coincidence. "Design for Serviceability" seems like it must be someone's job there.

Forget it... I'm just going to super glue everything on my car together!!

I can almost get my car to hit The Brown Note. How? If I accelerate hard in 3rd gear at around 3500 while playing dub on the OEM Audio + Reference. Normally I would downshift. However - if I do the above - the entire car - turbo/Perrin 3"/etc - will sync up and vibrate. I am afraid Rigicolas would send it over the edge. Good thing I took out the sound tube ages ago or else my passenger side clean-up would be astronomical. Say - I wonder if I could collect all these harmonies and run them back into the turbo for some Brown Boosts? Hmmmm.....

I guess you`d be surprised to find out that some high-end cars are riveted AND glued from factory actually...

Yes I know that. Eg. Elise, Exige, F40, etc.. I'm no spring chicken. I think your satire meter is broken. ;)

It's hard for a lot of us to purchase something based on "It's THAT obvious". Some people make similar statements about Megan coil-overs. While it may be outside of budget to provide any numbers; there needs to be some kind of compromise in communicating the benefits with factual statements.

hehe damn I wanted to be sarcastic on top of your sarcasm but i failed... yea it`s pretty amazing how stiff those cars are with the chassis glued...

I dont think it`ll improve your lap time by x amount so if you`re after that this is not the mod for you. when making the purchasing decision on the BRZ, I pretty much gave up on having "the fastest car" (traded in my wrx for the brz) but really just enjoying the feel of the car (this is also why I value the first gen NSX so much...). For sure the rigid collars isn't going to make you go faster around a track but it makes my driving experience so much more enjoyable and for that the price is not too bad in my opinion. However, I do understand that there are people out there that need to quantify x amount of dollar spent = x amount of performance, and as I have said before, there are better mods for that for the amount of money you will spend on this part. I can see the argument from both sides really. It all depends on what your goal is with your car.

^^ Not that you're wrong, but better feel might give you the confidence to push harder on a more consistent basis, which will make you faster in the end.

I`m a firm believer of that philosophy.

I decline to drive cars regularly, when I feel unconfident (unsafe) getting in them... :respekt: