The end of tuning: Car Companies Say Home Repairs Are 'Legally Problematic'
 

Grain of salt, and all that. Get your pre-ban OFT now!
Title edit.

Car Companies Say Home Repairs Are 'Legally Problematic,' Seek Copyright Restrictions

In comments submitted so far, automakers have expressed concern that allowing outsiders to access electronic control units that run critical vehicle functions like steering, throttle inputs and braking "leads to an imbalance by which the negative consequences far outweigh any suggested benefits," according to the Alliance of Global Automakers. In the worst cases, the organizations said an exemption for enthusiasts "leads to disastrous consequences."

ETA: Wired article http://www.wired.com/2015/01/let-us-hack-our-cars/

ETA again: Comment period seems to have expired Feb 6.

Interesting.

Interesting indeed. If they can crack serial and product keys for Microsoft and the likes, then it will only be a matter of time before any "block" becomes cracked. They can't stop us!

You will have encrypted and logging ECU's that would drop a dime either at the dealership when in for service or something like OnStar narcing you out in real time or an instant brick. The DCMA and it's authors need to die in a fire. I have no doubt in my mind that this will happen.

ETA: The real weapon will be the f-ing shitstain Fed's destroying anyone involved in providing tools to do this. This very forum would get killed by FT86 club to avoid liability. F the 'gubmint.

I really enjoyed the part where the auto manufacturers state that they are less concerned with new revenue streams and more concerned with other issues. They basically admitted that they are at least a little concerned about using this a an avenue for new revenue streams. I think that any auto manufacturer that attempts this on anything but a Prius will have a consumer backlash. I can say that I will immediately boycott anyone who implements this technology. From an enthusiast's perspective this is a business suicide move. You can't litigate your way into monopolizing a market without consumer backlash. If you remove the fun for the consumer, the consumer will look closer at alternative options for investing their spare change.

Except it will be the weight of the 'gubmint behind it. It will be EVERY make of car. Individuals (us) will be able to continue if you wish to run the risk of getting caught but a business (people like Shiv) will go to jail if they continue.

FBO, FDCMA, F the current lawless gubmint.

Plainly put the government represents those that participate in it.

It's the congress that each citizen either elects with their vote or allows to be elected by not voting that author (with the help of groups like ALEC) and pass the kind of laws those automakers are calling for. So long as this country has the lowest voter turnout (by far) of all westernized nations and rulings like Citizens United (which was made by 5 Supreme Court justices who are on a corporate payroll, but were placed there by elected presidents) we will continue to get a government that serves those corporations. After all, corporations are the "gubmints'" most participatory bodies. Civics teaches us this.

So in short, vote.

Vote in every election you can. Participate. Encourage everyone you know to do the same. Make a culture of it. This is the only way.

I like the protest and riots better myself.

I hate to make assumptions, most of the time. Who'd you vote for in the last Presidential election?

ETA: The ALEC ref does if for me. BO, no? If so, f-ing LOL.

DAEMANO: how about good old lobbying system? (where it's manufacturers, that will pay for such ruling, not common electorate. And apart from even older bribing system). And we shouldn't forget Stalin's quote - "it's not about how vote, it's about how votes are counted" :)

Only Conservatives are guilty when that happens. When Dems take money to screw people and the Constitution all is well I suspect, at least according to Daemano.

This is argument is exactly what corporations want you to do. Not talk about a real attainable solution, but instead default to governance as team sports. It's human nature to do this and corporations exploit it. The "other" isn't a political party, it's the group that is representing itself the most. Corporations.

I could swear there was an older thread about this. I think self driving cars will be mandated before we have to worry about this.

trying to not get too political, but as you say, corporations have the highest influence, that influence buys the media and buys influence in the national parties, giving them in large part, the ability to select who we get to vote for. Without media approval, candidates aren't even allowed into televised debates. Without being allowed into debates, nobody knows they exist. We are pitted against each other, so even if 100% of the people show up, we all just end up voting against each other for the same two candidates that would win if only 30% showed up. On top of that 90% of incumbents are reelected each cycle so the power never really changes hands. Regardless of the party in power, the federal government never spends less money than the year before, never voluntarily cedes power it has acquired, and never turns down a bribe if it can't be traced. Voting just legitimatizes what they do by showing the support from the "will of the people". I'm not saying not to vote, but not voting might at least scare some politicians with the dissatisfaction of the people.

Government is force, unless and until the majority of the people decide that it is wrong to use that force to make people behave the way they wish, nothing will ever change.

GM has been doing this for awhile. I know that the newer duramax trucks have copywritten ECM"s. A lot of companies have stopped making tuners because of this and the EPA going after them for emissions canceling software.

Then the next time you make a point about money buying government, don't forget to mention Soros. Make me ruler for a day, I guarantee I can fix the problem. The stench of dead bodies will fade with time.

Now were getting somehwere! Corporations are participating in the government, they use their money, the lobbying system (which has a place in democracies), and campaign finance laws to ensure congress writes the bills they want and votes them into law. Corporations essentially over represent themselves by ensuring laws are written in their favor. They use the revenue earned by selling to the public, to represent the interests of their executives and shareholders. This is why Corporations are not people, and money is not free speech. This is the crux of Citizens United.

Citizens can undo this by learning civics and using their logical minds and not allowing their political decisions to devolve into team sports political discourse and be ruled by classism, bigotry, and xenophobia. Citizens can learn to identify when these methods are being employed by corporations and their bought and paid for politicians and the zealots that buy into it. Citizens can then nominate and elect politicians (especially congresspersons) that are not on a payroll and that will represent their true constituencies. To undo the power of corporate lobbying and the rest of the above people must learn, and then vote in every election they can.

I can see where we are headed with this.
How many times do we throw our computers out because the software has become obsolete and the latest software won't run on our perfectly running hardware.
Our cars will be running perfectly and some "brightspark" will declare our ECUs obsolete and the new ECUs will only work on new cars , thus forcing us to regularly buy new cars.
The ultimate planned obsolescence marketing tool.

Only an issue for those flashing the stock ECU.

-alex

eh, the computer is just the computer, the car still has wires sensors and motors. Even with proprietary code, the computer just operates the engine. All the rules in the world won't stop some company AEM? from selling a "universal" computer, that is or is almost directly plug and play, with a like factory like tune available online, in an overseas server if necessary.

"Classism, Bigotry, and Xenophobia" sounds like the 16 Democrat platform. I like it! How odd
that some of the very people you want in Government were 2010 Tea Party freshmen.

DMCA can affect overseas hosted sites as well.

So you mean simply replacing the ECU with a generic like @Target70 mentioned below would be a work-aorund.

Or even a piggy-back device (like Unichip or PROcede) that intercepts/extracts sensor signals, translates them via a table from whatever the owner/tuner desires, and then loads those new signals into the stock ECU so that it behaves as we want.

The problem that the car companies are putting forth is this:

The ECU code is our own proprietary design. We have the rights to this.

It's similar to a "Microsoft lays claim to the source code of Windows, you mod it you are in violation of the ToS as a user"...

I can see where the argument is from. To me, it's a problem confined to those with a stock ECU and using OFT or other type of ROM tune.

Two ways to go around this:
1) run true standalone that is not confined by the stock ECU code
2) prove (in court or otherwise) that the ECU "code" is not a copyright issue. Unless someone wants to donate several years of their lawyer time to litigate, the best we can do is complain until someone like the EFF or other group(s) litigate on our behalf.

-alex

Edit: I think the people writing these articles suck at not explaining the scope of this.

From the last line of the article,

"It's just a myth that the manufacturers are the only people who can make improvements," he said. "That's why maintaining that choice is really important."

This is the whole idea behind open source software. If we can't improve upon a software, we can at least find bugs, loopholes, and errors that may have been missed by the designers. Point being that being able to look at the code and modify allows these companies essentially free labor (in the form of testing and possibly recoding) and things they can use in future versions of their product to improve upon it.

pirate bay is still up. When they get shut down they just change locations and keep on rolling. Or torrents in general, dark web, block chain, etc.. technology will always always evolve faster than bureaucrats.

If you read the comments at the link, you'll notice they want that to be illegal too. They want it to be against the law to modify the software of the car, in any way.

ETA: LOL, even backing up your stock ROM with an OFT would be a violation according to your good corporate friend of Obama, GM.

ETA: More f-ing LOL: Ban tuning, for the children.

True. However, I am fully fed up with having to do that, when hanging a 'crat from a tree would be so much easier.

Its probably illegal already, the code in ecu is protected by software keys which had to be cracked to read or write to ecu.

Legistrator dudes mandated car manufacturers allow access to obd error codes on all vehicles in standard format.

Think this is just some car company wombat, mouthing off wanting to go back to the good old days where everyone is locked out so only dealers can do maintenance. probably because they are loosing market share on maintenance to independant shops , maintenance is good steady money in the cut throat low margin car industry.

This is not a partisan issue. This an offensive (and IMO a smart) move by the EFF to ensure individuals have the freedom to modify software in their cars. This DMCA exemption review is done every 3 years as part of a regular process.

Automakers via "The Alliance for Global Automakers" (which includes 12 automakers including both Toyota & Subaru, not just GM) have responded (also as is part of the process). The automakers response has clarified that their position is about more about loss of potential revenue and not so much safety.

The US Copyright office will make its' decision based off the EFF's petition and the response by all interested parties. This whole process has little to nothing do with the executive branch. Your response is just another example of how conditioned many people in this country to play team sports on important issues. What people can do is try to understand the issue and then also respond either via supporting the EFF (if you support their position) or if you feel differently respond to the U.S. Copyright Office individually as an interested party on your position.

If you're talking about the auto bail-out that included GM that you want to pin on one political party, I suggest you read this in regards to the bailout.
Once again, not a partisan issue. Don't be fooled.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/new...lout/25950819/

How the hell can you read that article and conclude it was not partisan is well beyond my understanding. Regardless, I was not talking about the bailout, I was referring to your dislike of legislation by and for evil corporations. GM is a poster child for that. And WTF does "team sports" mean? Why do you hate democracy and its associated political parties who support (or oppose) issues and ideology they agree (or disagree) with? I suspect you are just a bit farther left than Liz Warren. Is "team sports" a new buzzword I've missed?

really?

Would you prefer defenestration? You are confusing. On one hand you hate the state of our government and its corporate-sponsored stooges, yet seem to have a problem with doing away with them. Be honest, you only dislike the stooges who are not on your "team".

:sigh: Conservative ideology is a mental illness :(

I am fed up with it as well, and it will only get harder now that the government has taken control of the internet. But, while I completely agree with the sentiment, It only works if you are in a position of power, or have the ability to sway very large portions of public with your actions. As that is not the current case, it would be suicide, and only result in the loss of one of the few people willing to fight back against tyranny. It would also result in martyring the politician, which would lead to a crackdown on the freedoms you used to create your Christmas ornament. Outlaw trees, rope, more surveillance, etc.. Only when enough of the public is swayed to your cause can any real change happen, which sucks as because democracy is despotic. As an example look at our history of persecution. From, prohibition, to Black rights, to women rights, to gay rights, to pot legalization. None of them have changed from violence, and may people have had to suffer for decades and many to die while waiting for the masses to start to realize the harm being caused by using the government to force others to live according to their view of propriety. That isn't to say I am against self defense either, only you have to bide your time and pick your battles.

As for what DAEMANO was saying about "team sports", I believe he is saying that the Dems, and Rebubs are all on the same team, They may be wearing different jerseys, and throwing the ball(attention/power) back and forth, but they are both carrying the ball toward the same goal. In his eyes, I believe he sees you blaming the Democrats alone, and just falling into their trap of picking sides in a game where both teams loose but not before screwing all the fans. I agree with the concept, but I differ in that I believe voting is also part of the same game, and I didn't see you take sides, only point out that you disliked what the Dems were doing.

in what way? please, I'm curious. He is passionate, and impotent in his rage. When it comes down to it the only difference between conservative ideology and liberal ideology, is in the situations it is ok to assault, and steal from others.
A typical conservative viewpoint is that it is perfectly fine to steal from, and imprison a person for consuming something they don't want you to.
A typical liberal viewpoint is that it is perfectly fine to steal from, and imprison a person for not donating to someone they want you to.

you could go down the list on almost every issue, but it all equals out to the same thing, If you authorize the government to exercise force against people according to your moral bias, then when the next person get's in office, they will use that authority in any way they deem appropriate. And you might not like that outcome.
In the words of Joshua, the only winning move is not to play.

Sounds like a reporter was talking to someone's legal department.....

You'd be surprised how many items legal departments file that go nowhere.

The encryption on the current 981 Cayman ecu is so good that noone has an aftermarket flash yet, after a couple years of trying. We can enjoy a Toyobaru ECU design that's either primitive, or generous to tuners.

Interesting thread ! - a harbinger of things to come (check out CANUCK OZ and LIMEYLAND laws).

As gov't and corporate pigs remove civil rights, (faster in the socialist countries above, citizens (not subjects) react by ways and means. They find them, then exercise their liberties (as in torrents, ECU's etc.).

FTG is now a reaction to erosion of liberty by the terrorist excuse.
Seems y'all did this once in Boston Harbor a couple of hundred years ago.

This is the most important thread on this forum - OOPS ! Forum Rools
WE'ALL TALKIN POLITICS !

Outta here ---------

It's the endless cycle of the bullet vs. the bullet-proof vest, in the hacking world.

Ahh. An Obamalo Democrat today is either willfully ignorant or an active enemy of the US as it is today. You show as being from CA, so that's not surprising. I'd rather be a bit nuts, thanks.

ETA: Warren or Clinton? Now there you have the party of mental illness.

:popcorn: