Just a thought... What could the factory have done to lighten then car?
 

This is just a thought provoking question. I don't even know why it popped into my head the other day - but what do you guys think Toyota/Subaru could have done to lighten the car; barring any "exotic materials" like titanium or carbon fiber.

I started thinking that because I feel like the power mirror on the right hand side is a bit redundant because: a) you can adjust it from where you're sitting, and, b) once it's set, you're unlikely to change it's position.

Just curious what forum members are thinking. I know there are some engineers here too, so I think it's an interesting topic.

They could of built the entire car out of carbon fiber like the LFA.

Missed the no carbon fiber part. Anyway, almost anything would have resulted in more expensive parts, or even less features on an already essentially featureless car.

theres a million things they could have done. no factory spare tire, no power options like mirros, windows, etc. lighter battery, more aluminum body parts

They already did a fair bit, like aluminum hood, light weight rims. If you bench mark modern cars it's not bad. Certainly heavier than the equivalent from 20 years back.

For the price the new MX5 (miata) certainty is impressive, especially for a convertable.

oh, bullshit

No AC, no spare tire (which they originally considered doing)

- AdrianG

They could have made the car from carbon fiber and titanium

Lots of stuff, but it would make the car feel much cheaper. Dash could have been just simple injection molded plastic. No back seat. No center console.


Power mirrors are pretty damn light, so it's a minor thing to save weight on...


Battery is the smallest it can be for an OEM battery. Don't forget this is a high compression motor, it needs the amps. AGM batteries are heavier, and any of the lithium ones aren't ready for prime time for a starting battery. Even the one Porsche uses is replaced with a conventional battery for winter use.


Keep in mind the twins are a far safer car than the Miatas are... The twins are even safe by todays standards.



Oh do tell...

What, these wannabes?

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76992

They could have put in a 1 pound billet aluminum crank pulley.

The heck. It's already as light as you can have it! If anything, they should've put a 2.2L or a 2.4L in there.

Yep, pure wannabe.

On topic, I'd say go like the Elise, F40, and Mosler MT900, bare bones race car for the street, and ditch the power stuff, no rear seat, no spare, no radio, no hvac. No sound proofing. Battery could be lower.

Problem is, the market would be smaller, and it wouldn't sell enough units. Maybe as a "race" version, with the current models as the upper level versions.

@Anthony is way ahead of us in the weight shedding dept. He's carefully documented everything.

Anthony's 4 Step Diet Program ║[=86=]║

Realistically meaning without raising the price or compromising all weather usability and reliability:

Remove and replace spare tire + tools with can of fix-a-flat - 30-40 lbs (depending on laws)
Smaller washer fluid reservoir and less fluid - 2-4 lbs (est)
Single exit exhaust and muffler - 20 lbs (Tanabe concept G as benchmark)
Manual on CDROM - 1 lbs
Lighter weight front seats - 14 lbs (est)
Delete front strut bracing - 3 lbs
Remove all sound dampening tiles - 3 lbs
Smaller door speakers - 2 lbs
Sound tube delete - 3-4 lbs

So maybe 90-100 lbs lighter without adding cost or sacrificing usability. Now what would an owner think about a car with no spare, shittier speakers, and more NVH?

I think they could have done the following:

1) Utilize more aluminum in the suspension (control arms, etc)
2) Single-sided exhaust
3) Manual windows, mirrors & locks option
4) Aluminum trunk
5) Lighter wheels

Of course, all of this would put the car up into the $30K range then you guys would be bitching that it's too expensive.

Interested in the comments regrding the spare. Here in Australia many of the cars were delivered without a spare, just leak fix juice. Toyota has changed it's mind a few times on this. Mine came with no spare ( I put in a space saver). Right now it's an optional extra.

I don't follow your rationale. It's an interesting topic because there are engineers on this forum? :iono:

For car design it is usually a case of marketing coming before engineering. Sure they could have made things lighter but at the trade off of nvh and/or cost. It's a street car. I am suggesting most people wouldn't know or care if it lost 50kg.

lol. Don't start :lol:

hmmm, oh yeah, my papers says I am a qualified wannabe.

I'm not qualified. I'm just a wannabe wannabe.

Just thought we might have some creative suggestions from people with engineering backgrounds. I do think the car is pretty light for all the standards it needs to comply with. I'm willing to bet there are things that people thought could be lighter- and I was just curious.

I figured a rear seat delete option would have been neat. I know some people utilize it, but for me, I think I must have only used the rear seats 3 times since purchasing the car. It could even be a dealer option so insurance companies could still classify the car as a 2+2.

Does the price remain the same or not? I'm assuming that you're asking what they could have done and kept the price the same, and retained the same features. Deleting stuff is the easy way, like AC, rear seats. But the car is also sold on certain features, so just taking stuff off is not really an engineering challenge. You can remove things yourself like the spare or rear seats.

me too.

Yeah but that doesn't really require any engineering. Bottom line is Cheap, Light, Strong. Pick 2.

I could have gone with even less bells & whistles but gains from things like manual windows and locks aren't all that great any more. They went back to a good formula used with the original 240Z. It started out really light because they went super thin with all the sheet metal. Compared to any other car of this day, it's a beer can. The engineering really came into play with how they focused on the whole package as a structural system and came out swinging. It's amazingly rigid given the material thickness.

edit: And just like a beer can, it's engineered to optimize for specific goals/requirements. As Snooze says, "Everything's a compromise."

4 lug wheels

All the noticeable from the outside things have already been mentioned, the only truly inventive ideas can only come from people who know every inch of this car, stuff like sharing mounting points for hardware, creating shorter harness pathways, and the stuff that would add to the cheapness, thinner plastics, carpet removal, no little rear window etc.

Personally I would have loved if they spent money on the suspension links and done some fancy forged aluminum like the NSX instead of the stamped steel. And built in alignment adjustability would have been great.

featureless car?

loool

A single exit exhaust would've saved a few pounds I feel:D

Helium filled tires.

marketing :(

Take a large dump before u drive. Better than deleting modern amenities.

Clever integration for the win.

Plastic 5 gallon fuel tank.

Sometimes the choices made can be difficult to quantify.

Maybe target inertial properties of the car influenced muffler specs.

Without removing functionality or increasing cost much, they could have made the front fenders and roof out of a modern plastic. These are supposedly now strong and durable enough to be used. Also, make the trunk out of aluminum instead of steel. I'm not sure if the bumper beams are already aluminum or not (does anyone know?) but if they aren't then that would be a big one.

The wheels could definitely be lighter. They should use Enkei, OZ, or BBS's flow-forming cast techniques to make them lighter and stronger with minimal increase in cost.

Also using OEM-grade Brembo calipers would be a little lighter and higher performance with a small cost increase and perhaps switch to a dedicated e-brake so that we can upgrade to two piece rotors front and rear or use co-cast/dual cast type discs.

Other than that, maybe include a stock AGM type battery which is typically a little bit lighter and leak-free. And I think since the release of the FR-S, Denso has come up with a lighter AC system so that might save a bit.

I would like forged aluminum suspension arms/links/knuckles but that might raise the cost a bit too much.

But yeah, these things would lower center of gravity, improve weight distribution, and enhance performance with little to no increase in price.

Factory could set me up with a gym membership.

Muscle weighs more than fat. But losing weight yourself doesn't do much to the performance of the car. You are generally centrally located in the vehicle and not a part of the unsprung weight or rotational mass. The target areas for weight would be up high, in front of the front wheels, behind the rear wheels, and everything that is part of unsprung weight and rotational mass. Also, I would prioritize things that would positively effect f/r weight distribution - so on this car, I wouldn't focus too much on things that are lower down towards the rear (like spare tire or fuel).

Bullshit. Strap 70 pounds of lard in the passenger seat and get back to me on that.

does briste even own a 86 or is he one of those weird lurkers

Haha... dunno but I wonder if there's a per-thread quota on saying "bullshit" legitimately, or otherwise. ;)