Strange sound when shifting into first or second
 

Guys - Im new to driving manual transmission cars. I bought a brand new series blue BRZ 2015 (i put about 280miles already) and I'm learning to drive manual on it. I been noticing a strange sound/rattle when shifting into first or second gear. The sound goes away when i give it more throttle. Also, this only happens sometimes, i been noticing usually happens when I'm not engaging the catching point correctly (but I'm not sure as I'm new to driving manual)...

Should i be concern of that sound? could it be something wrong with the car? or maybe is just me not shifting correctly?

Any tips will be appreciated....

Short answer, its not a problem with the car neither you.
If you want a understanding answers you need to use the search

Bienvenido

I'm not sure what that other guy is talking about...

You are likely hearing the clutch friction disc springs. These are tiny springs in the clutch that help absorb less than pleasant clutch engagements. The fact the clutch is still new and breaking in (i hope your taking it easy on the clutch!) may be amplifying the noise. Don't worry about it too much unless it gets worse, but hey that's what the warranty is for right? :w00t:

Thanks, yeah i been noticing that sound lately since im driving with my radio off to hear the sound of the engine that way it helps me when to shift...

I try to be gentle on the clutch but since i new driving manual, sometimes i feel like i dump the clutch too soon that the car jerks. Other than that is there any other tips to consider in order be gentel on the clutch?

Hey I have a 2015 aswell and have the same thing. For first gear if you hold the clutch in a little longer and then put it in gear you won't have any clunk. But second gear just clunky when it wants to

Same here. Have a 15' frs and when I'm shifting from 1st to 2nd from a complete stop, it feels like there's a clunk (idk how to describe it lol) in which I need more force from shifting to 2nd, compared to like 3rd or 4th..

so.... is this normal? I'm thinking maybe because it's new, so I'm hoping it might go away after putting a few thousand miles..

This is odd, normally you get the clunk when engaging 1st and a slight grind into 2nd, guess the new ones have a different story. Try one thing.. when going from 1st to 2nd go to neutral before 2nd.. So-> first.....nuetral...second..not in slow motion normal shifting speed. You should get nothing..if problem persists just drive the car normal, dont take it slow or easy if there's a problem taking it easy will just postpone it but not fix it, then take it in for a check up but give it a couple of weeks at least. Report back to know if anything changes.

I'll try that, that clunky feeling only happens on second gear (usually when im in traffic going like 10-15 mph). If i give it more throttle it goes away, im thinking its just because it's new so it might go away after a couple thousand miles... Other than that the car runs fine.

I currently have about 290 miles. I will report back with details when i hit at least 1k.

I'm trying to replicate this in my head.. "clunk feeling" is not sound. hmm.. One thing that many of us aren't used to with this car is that it makes noises, better yet you hear them, due to the lack of insulation and sound deadning material it has, hence its super light weight :). So just ride it out and let us know.

Yes, its hard to describe the feeling, it's something like it feels 'heavy' when doing light pulls in second gear.

Again, i never had a brand new car before, or never drove manual cars neither... I'll keep driving it, thanks though!

+1 to everyone else who suggested to just drive the damn thing. With little sound deadening and a super light, micro tolerance drivetrain... sounds will come at you from every direction. You'll go crazy if you're one of those "get paranoid at every sound" people. I'm one of them but after 10 years with high performance subarus and light toyos, have grown to accept the fact these guys just make lots of noise

Specific advice to your problem, let that input shaft slow down before you clunk it in. Pause for a few microseconds longer than normal from first to second if the speeds aren't just right, and voila, clunk/rattle/shitty feeling is gone. Also helps to flush tranny, but the stock fluid isn't that bad. Motul 300 will be worse cold, butter when to operating temp. Some have had success with pentosin as well. Just search for threads that suggest tranny fluid on here.

Also consider changing out rear shifter stay, mtec springs (will help with the gates and conversely your transitions between gears). TRD Quikshifter typically is more fun but will be harder to engage gears because of the design (own it, love it, don't deny its harder to shift if not using enough force). Can't comment about kartboy or other short/quick shifter setups, but people have had success with them as well :)

Not sure how the "thunk" became the focus here.
OP is it possible you are lugging the engine a bit in the lower gears? The fact that it goes away when you give more throttle means you may not be giving enough to start with.
Just food for thought.

Agree.. that rattle sound on first gear is gone when i give it more throttle when starting.. So for that problem, i think it just me learning how to drive it.

Now, there is a different question about when im in second gear (driving in traffic) the car feels 'heavy', like mentioned before it might because its new and im hoping it gets better with time.

What RPMs are you driving in when it feels heavy?

I would say between 1-2k and going about 5-15pmh

Then i usually shift to 3rd when going over 15mph and that feeling goes away.

If i shift very quick from first to second to third, i dont feel anything..

Like i said it's only when im driving in traffic and going slow.

Probably just the speed vs RPM combo feels weird to you then. I drive at much higher rpms (2500 to 3000) even when going slow since these cars are made for that and the feel is always great.

It might be, i try driving it a little higher rpms when on traffic, so see if that makes a difference.

I just thought on driving at a lower rpms just to save gas..

Much to tcoat's point, I try to not have my RPMs below 2k on this car, or else it tends to lug and make noise. I also drive this car around the 2,500 rpm mark. This was an adjustment for myself after being spoiled by the torque of a v8. 3rd gear at 15mph? That sounds much too soon, that's when I'm shifting to 2nd, lol.

I get 32MPG with a MT so shouldn't hurt you!

Oh i was not aware that 15mph was too soon for 3rd gear. Since the car seem normal when driving at that speed on 3rd gear, i thought it was fine...

Im still learning the appropriate gear for the appropriate speeds so, it's still a new learning process to me. Its like learning how to drive a car from scratch after being used to drive automatics for 6 years.

Try these two fixes. One is free, the other costs $60-70 and 5-15 minutes of your time

clutch pedal adjustment
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

Ultra's Slave Cylinder swap
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2029349

If you are driving in 3rd at 15mph and press on the gas pedal, at least in my car, it sounds like it is lugging until it gets up around 20mph or above 2k RPM. honestly, anything under 2k RPM makes the engine sound like it's lugging. If you are slowly down or steady speed, that is not a problem. If you are accelerating from a stop though... you are going to either be going extremely slow (making your car feel heavy as a truck accelerating) or making the engine just labor unnecessarily much. I'm not saying you need to get to redline, but let the RPMs get up closer to 3k before shifting (I shift between 3-3.5k), or if you're cruising, stay around 2k-2.5k RPM. See if that makes the car feel better for you.

Just my advice to a new manual driver.

edit: these RPM ranges are suggestions for driving manual on this car. Like I mentioned earlier, I could let my LS3 v8 damn slightly above idle RPM in 6th gear and it had enough torque to keep on cruising without lugging. Different cars/engines, different driving recommendations.

Also, for a new manual guy.. if you're not accustomed to what forces and variables are at play, learn about engine load, engine speed (rpm), and maf voltage/commanded POL fueling and how they interact. RPMs are not the end-all to what is happening in the system. 2K rpms with high load is much different than 2k rpms with low load. Just an fyi and some leads for you to follow

all very true.. was trying to keep it simple for a newbie manual driver :)

Interesting, thanks.

Well, when im cruising, im usually on 6th gear and im going around 70-80mph and the rpms are arround 3-3.5k, is that okay?

It's not just about RPMs. By the way, there's no way to "change" your speed/rpm band without changing gear ratios (Final drive ratio, for example, will change everything. Individual gear ratio changes will change rpm/speed bands for that specific gear), so there's no variance. If you're asking if that's okay for mileage, then typically anything beyond 3k at cruising load is adverse to what is considered normal gas mileage.

So again, learn about engine load and engine speed and how they correlate

As others have pointed out, the sound is more or less normal. I believe the initial sound he was referring to, the rattle, is just the flywheel and clutch springs (as someone else mentioned). The flywheel chatter is a pretty common thing and it's much more noticeable at lower RPMs.

However, skip shifting from 1st to 3rd at 15mph probably isn't the best idea. I'm pretty sure you're lugging the engine at 15mph in 3rd gear (you would be around 1.2k RPM-ish?). I generally won't be in 3rd unless I'm going over 20. The car will feel a lot smoother and probably make less concerning noises if you try to keep the RPMs over 2k. Obviously 1st gear is an exception, but for the rest it's a fairly simple practice to follow.

As for getting smoother shifts between 1st and 2nd overall, try pausing a little bit longer when you hold in the clutch to shift. For example, when you would generally depress the clutch for a .25-.5 seconds shifting between 3rd or 4th, try holding it in for 1.5-2 seconds shifting from 1st to 2nd. You have to keep in mind that as you go up in gears, the ratio gets closer together. The gap between 1st and 2nd (3.626 to 2.188, a difference of 1.448) is much larger than the gap between 5th and 6th (1.000 to .767, a difference of .233). This means that there will be a larger RPM gap for 1st and 2nd with a given speed, so you'll need to wait a little bit longer for the RPM to drop down to the appropriate speed.

Another thing that might help smooth out your 1st to 2nd shift is to practice shifting at 15-16mph. This would put you at a little over 3k RPM. RPM drops faster, the lower the initial speed because there's less momentum. This should make it a bit easier to get used to the delay with shifting from 1st to 2nd.

I know I got a bit convoluted there, but really it all comes down to practice and knowing the car. My general rule of thumb for gears and speeds (casual commute driving):
1st gear: Under 15mph
2nd gear: Under 25mph
3rd gear: Under 35mph
4th gear: Under 45mph
5th gear: Under 55mph
6th gear: Anything over 55mph

Obviously you can go 40mph in 2nd, or probably even get away with 35mph in 5th, but you'll figure out where you need to be to keep the car rolling smoothly. Just try to keep things simple for now until you get to that point. Try not to mind the sounds too much, there will be a lot of weird rattles and clunks that might sound catastrophic, but for the most part it's just normal sounds from a car with minimal sound deadening.

Good luck!

This was very informative, thanks so much!

I drove back home with traffic again. I was doing pulls in second gear from 15-25mph, it felt much better in second gear at around 2 - 3.5k and it sound good when the engine rev and then drops until i give it another stave to the throttle. I been doing this when I'm in traffic, is this a good driving method?

Also, I'm having some problems when down shifting, for example when downshifting from third to second the car pulls forward. Any tips on how to avoid that?

What do you mean by giving "it another stave to the throttle"? Do you mean you're letting the RPM drop before you get into 2nd and start accelerating again? If so, then yes, that's a good driving method.

When you're downshifting, are you rev matching your downshift? Rev matching is basically blipping the throttle to make sure that the engine is spinning at the appropriate speed for the gear you're shifting into. For example, at 2k RPM in 3rd gear, you'd be going about 23-24mph. But 2k RPM in 2nd gear equates to about 16mph. If you just shift directly from 3rd to 2nd without blipping the throttle, the engine will have to speed up to about 3k RPM to match the speed of the transmission. This is that lurching feeling you're experience. But, if you quickly tap the throttle while your clutch is depressed to bring the engine to 3k RPM, the engine will match the speed of the transmission and it should feel like a smoother transition.

Basically, when downshifting (for example 3rd to 2nd):
1. Depress clutch
2. Lightly blip the throttle to raise the engine's RPMs
3. Simultaneously move the shifter from 3rd to 2nd.
4. Smoothly release clutch before the RPMs drop down again.

It takes some practice, but eventually you'll get a feel for it and it'll be second nature.

Here's a video from someone who used to frequent this forum and it's actually pretty decent. He goes over REV matching at around the 13 min mark, and while he's not too scientific about it, he covers the basics.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slBxtYWKdjo"]How to Drive Stick Shift and Rev Match in a BRZ! - YouTube[/ame]

Very helpful, thanks

Sent from my Note 4 via Tapatalk.

What i meant was, for example I'm in second gear running at around 15-25mph, i hit the throttle to move a bit forward and then i let the rpm drop (as well as my speed) and then i hit the throttle again to move forward (i do this when I'm in traffic usually). Basically, I'm revving the engine until 3k rpm and then let us drop to 1.5k-2k and then hit the throttle again to move the car forward (this is all done in second gear)

Anyways, yes i saw the video from subaruwrx fan, i was able to rev match/downshift from 4th to 3rd!. Im having a bit more difficulty when rev matching/downshifting from 3rd to 2nd. I just need more practice.

OP, I will chime in here because I think it got waaaay too complicated.

Even with the stock flywheel, the engine does not run perfectly smoothly at low RPM. This is perfectly normal and not unique to our car. All "smaller" engines do it to a degree.

It is not the clutch. It's the gearbox. All the gears are constantly rotating but only one pair are connected to the output shaft in each "gear." At low engine speed, with some throttle applied, each pulse of a cylinder firing rattles all the rest of the disengaged parts inside the transmission. That's all. Nothing more.

I am constantly in stop-go traffic. It's not good to put one's foot in it below 2000 RPM but it is ok to gently creep up to 2000 and then drop the hammer. If you hear the gearbox clatter, you're giving it too much throttle at low RPM. Either back off, or downshift. That's all.

As a new FRS manual owner as well, this is much appreciated! Thanks.

I agree with Manic on this, I am new to this car but not to MT. I have found the car to run best at the speeds he has posted. But for slower starts I will go to 20-25 in first and then jump to 3rd for just cruising, stop sign to stop sign.