3S-GE BEAMS swap
 

I'm the Geezer and I'm a swapaholic.
There is a guy on the MR2 site doing a 3S-GE swap from an Altezza with 6 speed. their web site www.dynosty.com He is quite a long way along with it and it is what I wished Toyota had done with the 86.
They are using a very expensive Haltech ECU.
I have a question for the electro geeks.
Why couldn't the BRZ ECU control the BEAMS engine?
Dual VVt , fly by wire, 4 cylinders, 86x86 2.0, battery backed injectors and so on. I have read that the Suby ECU can be flashed to not use the DI injectors at all.
Tell me why it wont work.

I know it is a brilliant motor but is it THAT much better than the FA20 to be worth the blood, sweat, tears and money? Those concerns aside the big things that jump to mind about the ECU is whether the sensors are compatable. Also would it fit below the hood line?

You read my mind. The first thing I thought of when I bought my FRS was... "why couldn't they have put the 3sge in here!"

It would make life A LOT easier if this badboy was to grace our engine bay
http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/a...E/IMG_5898.jpg

But for real, this engine is a dinosaur with all that iron. It would've been much better if they went with a longitudinal mounted 2zzge and displaced it to 2 liters for this car. Then again, how exactly would this car handle without a flat boxer engine (the 6 million dollar question)? Kind of the reason why the boxer was the selling point of this car. Low C.O.G. Still though, I wish Toyota should've shoved an inline 4 in the engine bay as far back as possible and cut out Subaru entirely.

It's a Toyota thing
 

Yeah I know the 3S is old timey but the 4th Gen is fairly advanced.
I doubt the COG would move up all that much, I think I could live with it.
It looks like it fits under the hood in the Dynosity swap as does the larger trans.
Being a 4AG fan I was watching the development of the 86 with baited breath.
And then they pull the rug out. A wha? A Subaru? A truly WTF moment for AE86 fans.
So now there's a F'n Subaru in the driveway where there should be a GT86 not a Scion.
But I digress, I suppose I'll just have to get the new Lexus and spare myself the swap abuse. But I am a repeat swap offender and will likely find myself back in swap prison by next fall.
Some pics of my 4AG AE86 drive train MGB GT I also Have a Porsche VW/914 with 4AG power.

I was also hoping that the FT-86 would use a 3S variant or something to rival a F22C when I first heard about it. You could just use the factory 3S ECU to control the engine and leave the FA20 ECU in to control the body. All in all, it probably wouldn't be worth it though.

yes why bother
 

Yes I'll most likely talk myself out of it but a complete 3S and trans only runs $1500 ish.
I see a Lexus on my horizon.

Was going to post up some details once its finished being turbo'd, has been running around NA for a while now, all my pictures are on my work cpu, but feel free to check me out on instagram: dustinatdynosty #FR3S #dustinsnewproject

We will be selling swap kits once we have everything finalized.

3sge beams is a tall motor, even when swapped into ae86s they need mods to clear the hood.

Its a good engine but it really needs a light chassis to be good (like an ae86). I owned an Altezza and it wasn't fast (slowest car I have ever owned).

once its turbo'd i think it will do just fine, and when built, will do even better

Where is this BEAMS frs you guys speak of? I would love to see pics of it.

I will admit, the thought of a BEAMS swap did cross my mind a bunch of times if my FA20 were to ever take a shit.

Now that you guys have a spilled the beans on a swap kit coming, I am all the more interested.

EDIT:

Nevermind... Found them here.
http://instagram.com/dustinatdynosty/

http://photos-f.ak.instagram.com/hph...61435047_n.jpg

Good God! I gotta say, the 3SGE looks very belonging in there. Any details on wiring?

This is a side project I have been working on at the house and pretty happy with how things are going. I have been an mr2 fanatic for years and after 10 or so I finally parted ways with my 95 last year. I always wanted to play with a red top BEAMS and turbo it but never got around to it so when I picked up the FRS that was my first thought was to drop a black top BEAMS in and turbo it. We played with the FA20 for a while but I never was happy with the car having a boxer engine... no offense to those that love it, we still work, build, tune the FA20 but for my personal car it was time to do what I wanted to do. Put the heart of a Toyota back in it... even if its heavier, taller, whatever other negative anyone wants to throw at it.

For the wiring on this initial setup I took the FA20 engine wiring harness and completely dissassembled it and cut the wire to fit the BEAMS motor, repinned and re heat shrunk everything. So the BEAMS engine harness now connects to the FA20 chassis through the AC1 connector, then at the ECU I have a patch harness that I have pulled all of the signals needed to run the engine while keeping the stock CPU happy. Still working on a few little odds and ends but the car drives around great and can't wait to do some testing on the dyno in turbo form.

The haltech on the car is the more expensive 2500 series as that was the only model available when i was working on the wiring but the 1500 series which is the 4cyl version of the 2500 will be the one that we will be offering in a swap package. This is able to retain factory drive by wire functions which offers a cleaner install solution. Currently we welded a flange on the stock BEAMS intake manifold that allows the stock FA20 throttle to be bolted in place but will offer the swap with either a flange for the stock TB or will offer an aftermarket manifold with plug and play Tundra 5.7 throttle body. I haven't had time to play with ITBs but that will also be an option.

See...........told ya. So who needs a low mile FA20? :-)

How strong are the stock internals, will they really hold up to enough more power over an FA20 to justify the swap?

Even if the engine is cheap, you'll need an upgraded turbo to make bigger power which would be roughly the same cost as a turbo kit for the FA20.

I would bet that a built FA20 block will cost less than the rest of the swap parts.

If it's being done for the fun of it, then sure, but if it's being done just for power output there are far more efficient ways to get power.

- stock for stock is a good question, I haven't decided if I want to try and push it in stock form to see where it pops but from a block standpoint, a solid deck block will 100% out hold the power of a subaru open deck block.

- they do not come stock turbo, so its about the same cost to turbocharge either motor

- I haven't added it up yet to confirm, but no i believe the swap will cost less then what it would cost for an individual to to pay a shop to build an FA20 block.

- mine was 100% for the fun, but you are in the swap forum, so everyone in here could most likely make power in a way other than a swap but they are choosing to swap instead.

I would do this swap not based on cost but more so reliability and ease of maintanence. Going with the BEAMS engine eliminates the worries of DI seals burning up and AVCS failures some are plagued by. Servicing will be a walk in the park (sparkplugs!!!) and doing a turbo kit would be much easier as it will now hang off the side of the motor instead of coming from up and underneath as seen with the FA20. I've talked to a car builder about our FA20 and he has come to know these engines as being hit or miss. He told me that once the case has been split, all bets are off as tolerances are a 50/50 bet that they will be back in spec.

I just don't have much hope in the fa20. But it would be hard for me to rip apart a brand new car to do an extensive mod like this. A clapped out e30 shell would be more fitting to create a Frankenstein.

i think this is something more nostalgic for us ex-Mr2 owners haha. i always wanted to do a beams red top but opted for a jdm 3sgte back then. this could be my 2nd chance to own my own beams! :drool: lol

I'm dying to know, how does it handle now with 3sge swap compared to when the car had the fa20?

I bought my FRS 100% because of the handling. I would not want to do anything to compromise that.

To be honest I haven't put enough time in on it to know just yet, I too bought my FRS solely for the handling. I normally park my toys in the winter so even bringing it out right now is pretty rare so I haven't been able to go beat on it in NA form. The motor sits as low as it can and as far back as it can. We have a suspension shop that we use up at work that has a corner balance scale setup so once it warms up I will weigh it and see if I can get another FRS to follow just to get an idea of the official changes. To be honest I don't think its going to throw the handling off dramatically enough that an average driver (myself included) will be able to tell. Now if you are at the track every weekend of every month and truly can tell what needs adjustment between your suspension and driving technique then you are better than me and maybe you will be able to notice. But what I have found is that 99% of drivers couldn't tell you apart from looking at it if a tire was down 10psi on one corner or if one shock isn't rebounding like the others. So they are not going to notice the shifted weight.

Oh man that would be awesome to get a comparison between both cars. I reckon it likely won't be anything drastic as well. It's not like it's a 2jz in there.

A quick ebay search led me to realize how cheap these engine/gearbox sets are. Literally like $1200 for both and they're litered all over ebay for around that price range.

How strong are the transmissions though? The weak link in the FRS is the gearbox. Does the BEAMS gearbox fair any better.

...I never researched the Altezza BEAMS much.

In all of the research I have done, I have come to the conclusion that most that have messed with the motor did so in a poor manner that it would not be accurate to use them as comparison of what a properly setup motor and transmission can handle. the S54 trans the NA mr2s get everyone claimed blew up at anything over 250tq, and I made 350tq+ for years on end of abuse with no failure. The NA 3sge (gen 2) everyone claimed wouldn't hold any power and I made 400+ whp for many years without issue. So I believe it takes a good shop to be able to tell the true limits of a motor and transmission and even when it breaks, the shop needs to be mechanically inclined enough that they can identify the true fault to understand how to not do it again. 90% of shops we see out there do not assemble motors in house, nor have the qualified technicians on hand should they even have the proper equipment to do it. Not tooting our own horn, but we have this all in house.

To bring that all full circle- motor I don't think 800whp is un attainable if built. The transmission however is an unknown factor. But as you said, they are cheap enough, I will try a few before looking at other transmission options.

how about low mile boosted fa20...

Well this is getting interesting. I want the BEAMS not for more power but for a engine I think is a reasonable alternative to the Suby flatty. I can build an I4 with no worries of it holding up or being weak. (Too many posts of engine problems with the twins).
I use it for a sports car and don't drift or track so no need for more power just get it to behave more like a Toyota should. And yes it is for the FUN of it.
So sign me up for a swap kit I'm in.

I love the idea of this, but no way could I bring myself to do this on a running FR-S. I am not sure what to think of the fa20, but I can't accept that this motor is so horrible that a 20 yo motor is a much better option.

Now, if I could ever get my hands on a good shell, then all for it!!!!

Great work.

My main concern with a BEAMS swap would be parts availability. I did a timing belt and seals job on a customer's red top, and getting the parts took a minute. And my shop isn't exactly known for its lack of resources with regard to MR2s/3S-related things.

Granted, we got everything, and it wasn't like it took months, and it's not like it needs to be done every month, but it was more of a hassle than I'd care to deal with.

I'm anxious to see the boosted black top results, just for the sake of being able to bust a coworker's balls for dragging his ass on his idea for that motor.

Beams motor swaps are popular in NZ. I have one in my ae86. Mates have them in their cars. Just because you can't find info on google doesn't mean it doesnt exist.

I've had a couple of them, in various stages of build. Without spending hours writing a massive blurb. Here's some quick comments.

The motor fits in an ae86 without modding the bonnet
They make 200whp pretty easily NA. Add some itb's and a standalone and it'll get there.
The heads are fantastic and flow extremely well. You don't need to touch anything in the head, even when boosted. Although replacing the titanium valves with steel valves is advisable.
My built beams makes peak power at 8000rpm, it has stock cams.
I use a turbo common on sr20's. On the beams the turbo spools about 1000rpm sooner, and makes 400whp at 14psi. The same turbo on an sr20 needs 19psi to get to that figure.
The cranks I've never heard of one let go.
The rods are not the best, but will take 300whp or so. More than that, replace them.
It will fit in a gt86. The first thing I did when I got my gt86 was to measure and see if my spare beams would fit.
The j160 box is similar strength to the fa20 box.
You can get a bellhousing (I forget from what) that will allow you to bolt an r154 to the beams
The heads are different between the auto and manual trans, auto has smaller cams. Get the manual one. You can tell by the yellow sticker on the front of the motor. From memory G 1 and G3 are manual, G2 and G4 are auto. Can't remember exactly though, can check with a mate that'll know.
Unlike previous 3S motors, beams is interference.
Related to that, be careful when replacing pistons. Because of how much lift the valves have, and how much vvti can advance, they get super close. First guy here 5 or so years ago to start mucking round with these bent a few sets of valves before they got the piston design right. North Shore Toyota in NZ have some of these custom pistons in stock, CP pistons. They're what I'm running. Just because its not interference at idle, doesn't mean it wont be once vvti start advancing. To check this when building motor, put the cam 3 teeth out, which is 36 degrees, (vvti advances 35 from memory) so if that clears as well, means piston design is ok.

There's a couple of guys using them for endurance racing here. One is one season old, the other two seasons. Both are 450whp or so. Much more than 500whp in a race car and you need to sleeve them.

Oh another thing, if you replace the valve springs, don't use the hydraulic tensioner any more. Make a manual one. The oem tensioner isnt well matched to the increased valvetrain drag from the heavier springs. A couple of times when mine was getting run in the cambelt would skip teeth. Took us a little while to diagnose that it was the tensioner. Since its now manual tensioner it hasn't done it since.

Mine I use for drifting and I'm ruthless with it and it's never missed a beat. Prob done 15 events/days on it so far.

If you're interested in staying NA, a couple of guys have got them to 250whp. Full race motors though. Guy called Glen with one in a ra45 celica posts online in a few places. Google ra45 celica beams and some different forums should come up.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head.

It hasn't been too bad thus far, since it was/is not a popular motor state side there is very little aftermarket support but after I am done, we will have a source for just about everything you need to build them NA or Turbo. Yes the HKS timing belt took a while to get in but other than that everything else has been under 2 weeks. And I doubt anyone is swapping this motor or any other motor on a daily driver, this is my toy car so if it has to sit a while for this reason or another, no big deal.

I assume you are over at ATS? I talked to Aaron a while ago when he first got his car and we were talking boost options and can't recall if I ever let on that this was my plan or not.



Manji- thanks for the info, I have stumbled across the same info across a few threads on toymods and couple other places.

.

^ lol

Any comparisons on the power delivery of this engine compared to the FA20?

This brings me back to the days of messing with my red-topped '91 MR2... That Glen character that Manji mentioned is quite the source of knowledge with these motors and has (last I read) a pretty nice set-up in his Celica. I know he used to post a bit on the mr2.com forums, but it's been a long while since I've been on there.

I'd like to see an FRS with a blacktop. I'm pretty interested in the weight difference. IIRC when I had the redtop pulled from the MR2 it seemed pretty heavy for a 4cyl engine. Classic Toyota (Yamaha?) iron, I guess.

Also, check this out: www.beams-redtop.com

Edit: Lots of useful stickies here: http://www.mr2.com/forums/forums/127-BEAMS-Owners-Group

Yup, I'm with ATS (I'm one of the two that boosted Aaron's car...which is now mine). He's known for awhile you are doing a beams swap, so you must have told him back then.

The 3s ge is an awesome engine. You can hammer it for years as I did mine in my previous car and it just keeps on ticking. Also makes similar power to the fa20 but is no where near as fuel efficient.

Maybe the next gen fa20 will be as reliable and make much more power. Just as how the blacktop is a much better engine than the red top.

As it is I wouldn't do a swap now.

Not really, I started the swap at the end of the drivable season for our area and the car has spent most of the time parked, currently finishing up the turbo setup and will have it at TX2K - just as transportation unless I run into some huge snag.



This is a blacktop swap just in case that wasn't clear. I don't have the exact differences in weight, but couple things to balance out, you have two aluminum heads on the FA20 and only one on the 3sge, I just packaged up a full set of FA20 heads yesterday and they weighed 88lbs boxed. I feel like the 3sge head will be slightly lighter than that. I am throwing out numbers but would guess 50lbs or less on the 3sge fully loaded head. So saving of 30lbs to give to the over weight cast iron block. I don't have full weight of an FA20 block but have the bare block numbers somewhere in the office and have other 4cyl cast iron blocks to get a rough idea of weight and will report back next week. Now the 3sge will definitely have the weight higher distributed.



I think a lot of that has to do with proper tuning. I will wager we will get similar gas mileage with proper EMS and tuning.

Just figured I would post up a quick picture of the finalized setup. Made 323whp at 8psi revving to 7600rpm before driving it 16hrs to TX2K. When I find some time upon returning, will turn the wick up a little and see what it makes at 8000+RPM.

This is how Toyota should've built this car!

That's awesome powet for only 8psi. That's better than every stock internal FA20 bolt-on turbo setup I've seen.

Cheers. Will be checking on your progress.

Nice work. It'll keep making power to 8000rpm (that's where mine makes peak power) but it'll fall away in a hurry after 8200.

This is what happened to mine a week ago..
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MNhcI4py8Lg"]3SGE Beams drops valve mid drift - YouTube[/ame]

Too many drift runs in 4th gear, sitting on limiter


I'm flattered you copied my plenum :D

Dont know if it's because I never grew up with the MR2 but i dont see the point at all in swapping this engine. Maybe this swap would be worth it in a car that has a poor engine like a ae86 but I just cant see the point in a twin. It's a old engine, heaver, and just the cost of the swap + a turbo just dosent make sense to me. For anyone who is going to comment on my post saying "twins cant hold power" im going to link you this post http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...87&postcount=9 All those threads you have read from engines blowing are from poor installation or a bad tune.

Can't tell if trolling or just stupid

I dont like the boxer anyomore, i'd like to see those engines with a itb. Its possible to achieve 200+ hp @ 10k rpm?

Thank you for your comments, but this is the swap forum, if you do not want to contribute to it with any thing other than confrontational comments you can please exit this thread. It is comments like these all over the board from people who just want to start a pissing match on the forums that create such a negative environment that no one wants to post any useful information any more and why intelligent vendors shy away from posting anything at all. IF you decide to combat again, I will report you to the moderator of this section.