Why Innovate supercharger?
 

So, I'm not best at wording things, most of you innovate owners may hate me but I'm simply asking question not just from you guys, but from people who have driven/have multiple SC kits aside from Innovate.

Okay so I watched this video.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnBPFzurDH4"]Review: Innovate Supercharged Scion FR-S - YouTube[/ame]

It's that SubaruWRXfan guy who some how got his fans to buy him a 2015 Mustang.

Anyway he did a review about the Innovate Supercharger on the FRS.

I don't care much about the automatic part because I don't drive one and this subject I'm asking about is the Innovate Supercharger kit.

But I noticed before I got my BRZ I noticed a lot of people were all about "Twin screw" and a lot of people were raving about the Innovate kit.

I'm actually trying to figure out why would anyone buy an Innovate supercharger, when you can buy the Jackson Supercharger or Kraftwerks, and let's not forget Vortech for the same price and have MUCH higher HP.

If you look at the dyno charts, the only thing I see that the Stage 2 Intercooled Innovate had over the centrifugal SC was that 1-4K RPM TQ range, but at the higher RPMs it just gets left behind by the centrifugal SCs.

I got that information from here.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55705

The stage 2 innovate kit should cost around 4000 but my biggest question is that if you're spending 4000 dollars, why not buy a Jackson/KW or Vortech and get more horses and get much more torque in the mid to higher RPM area.

I know I might sound like I'm completely hating on the Innovate kit, in a way yes I kind of am, because from my point of view you can spend the same amount of money on a better SC kit. But I really want to know, what I'm missing?
I'm not trying to hate on the innovate kit, I just strongly believe that there are much better options, but I also want to know why this kit is/was so popular.

Was Innovate the very first super charger to come out and that's why everyone wanted it?
I don't know, I also noticed that innovate kits are either rare or no longer on sale, did something happen?

I would ask more questions but I don't really want to make this a giant wall of text. I apologize if I somehow pissed anyone off or if I offended anyone, again I'm just simply asking questions and trying to learn something new.

UPDATE:

From what I'm seeing this is mostly down to personal preference, a lot of people who daily drive our cars tend to like the early torque curve and usually won't spend that much time in the higher RPM range. Also lets not forget about that nice whine sound!

In my case though, I don't see it as a good deal because a Jackson/KW or Vortech offers more torque and more HP in the higher RPM range and also passes emissions.

...

Good to see the forum hasn't changed since I went away.

God damnit lol I'm guessing I won't be getting any good answers then

Research the differences between the centrifugal and positive displacement supercharger and there re read your question.

Plains vs mountain peak

"Innovate" kit is no longer for sale. They were just the North America distributor for the Sprintex kit. Sprintex is selling it themselves in North America now. That may account for your seeing Innovate kits "Out of Stock", etc.

A positive displacement blower like a twin screw is supposed to feel like the name implies... that you just have more displacement in the engine. Take a 2.0 liter and make it feel like you're driving a 2.5 or 3.0 liter.

When it comes to superchargers/turbos, everyone has a preference. Best way to find out what you'd be happy with is to just ride in them, if possible, even if it's not this car, to know the characteristics of each FI type.

Btw, the Vortech, I believe, was the first supercharger to market for this car, and they have gone through numerous revisions to upgrade their kit since then. Still a good choice as well.

I currently have a vehicle with a twin screw blower and one with a centrifugal charger (Kraftwerks) The twin screw powered vehicle feels like your riding a wave of torque almost everywhere but feels pretty anemic at high RPMs. It suits a daily driver and big vehicle in my opinion.

My BRZ has the Kraftwerks C38 kit on it, nothing crazy. It still feels naturally aspirated in terms of where the torque is, and its not as suited to daily driving (which I don't anyway).

What do you plan to use your car for? There's pros and cons for both kits.

Personal preference. The sooner you learn to accept that people will do what they want despite what you think they should do, the less stress you'll have in your life.

^ The true secret to life

I think the answer is "personal preference". Let's just say if you wanted high horsepower and not worry about CARB, turbo is the way to go. I have been in cars with HKS turbo set up running 7 psi, Jackson racing kit, and the innovate kit. Turbo is no doubt the fastest and with twin scroll set ups nowadays turbo lag on smaller turbos is virtually gone. However, I really really liked the instant push from the innovate kit. Jackson kit I'm sure makes more power (as dyno suggests) but I don't care for the linear power delivery... I like the kick in the pants that innovate provides. But this is why Jackson would be better for track racing and I believe has better cooling capabilities. If I wanted a high horsepower car and do fast 0-60 times I bought a wrong car... But the innovate for me, makes the car feel super responsive where as the Jackson kit feels similar to stock.

My 2 cents - very much what you prefer and what you want to do with the car.

"Area under the curve" - how much time do you spend in your car 2k-5k vs 5k-7k?

Also the link you provided is not one of my favorites - not a very fair comparison between kits, some kits have cats, some kits don't, varying octane, varying environments for dynos, etc. Interesting comparison if you're just looking at the *shape* of the output curve, but for direct numbers comparison it's sorely lacking.

Well tuned and optimized innovate kits on 93 octane are right around the 290-300whp mark, with a flat torque curve to boot.

Well tuned centrifugal compressors will almost always produce higher peak numbers, but both systems when well tuned will push the limits of the stock clutch even on 93 octane, not to mention E85.

Also many people like the wicked twin screw whine associated with the Innovate (and some people prefer the subtle jet whistle of a centrifugal unit).

So the question is, how fast do you want to go? If you want ultimate speed, then stop talking about differences in price between kits, because you'll need to open up your wallet to other things to have properly done high hp system.

FWIW I think I read somewhere in this thread somebody talking about 'spooling' with centrifugal superchargers. There's no such thing - they *do* build boost in an exponential fashion relative to RPM, but there's no lag associated with a belt driven centrifugal supercharger. Bring RPMS up to 6000rpm, and then put your foot in it, and you'll get sharp and immediate response from any of the belt driven centrifugal systems. Turbochargers are another story - a well matched turbo on our modern high compression engines will be responsive compared to the turbo systems of 'yesteryear', but the throttle response will never match a supercharger (it will always feel 'softer' on tip in).

Sorry, that was me, and I chose the wrong word for it. You described what I meant though. I compare it to turbo spool time because you probably won't ever be cruising at 5k or 6k RPM, so it may take a second to get into the meaty portion of the power curve.

edit: removed that portion from my initial post so I don't confuse anyone.

Where is info on innovate making 290-300 whp? I have only seen them making that kind of power on E85. I would be sold if it showed those numbers on 93 octane. Please please show me, I need that whine in my life!

Here's the thing.

If you're at 2k-5k, you're not looking to go fast; if you want to go fast, you'll be in that 5k-7k range. When you floor it, the automatic downshifts, because there's more power up top, right?

So do you want a powerband where the power is when you don't really need it, or a powerband where the power is there only when you want it?

The analagy I use is 350Z vs S2000 type powerband... the Innovate powerband is remarkably close to a VQ35DE, whereas the centrifugals are close to a bolt-on F22C.

There's plenty of DD guys here that would be happier with the 2-5k range, because they don't want to be screaming at 5k-7k just to get up to however fast traffic is going, or just want to be able to give it a bit more power without forcing the downshift. I understand this perfectly.

However, I would go centri, but like most have said in this thread, ultimately it is personal preference, and being happy with how you intend to use the car.

Having owned both, I found the 350Z (I had VQ35HR) to much more usable in daily driving. Sure, my AP2 was a blast on the track but it was the same as driving a 250 Ninja. You have to keep in that small 20% of the power band to have fun.
Hence my recent Sprintex order. Of course, nothing is a one fit for everyone.

Hah Mike - I have to say that's a pretty wobbly argument... you're saying that a flat torque curve on a street car is not desirable? Why do v8's, v10's and v12's exist? Why do all the major auto manufacturers design turbo systems that are optimized for wide flat torque curves instead of peak power? It's better in 90% of driving situations. It's certainly *fun* to downshift and wring out a peaky motor, but when I'm not being a hooligan I certainly prefer a motor that gives me power to pass without downshifting. Heck at the track in that tight hairpin, or at the local AutoX I'd prefer to stay in a higher gear if I can :)

Because at the end of the day, there is no replacement for displacement....

The wide, flat torque curves are actually manufacturers chasing emissions and MPG ratings, rather than "driveability", for the most part. I wouldn't call a EJ257 with a powerband of 4k-6k wide and flat :thumbsup: Or a 4G63 in an Evo. Or the M133 in the CLA45 AMG.

I do agree, big flat powerbands are nice for street driving, but I don't think that's why most people decided to purchase a FRS/BRZ.

The big difference in driveability is not that the Innovate makes more power down low, but that the Innovate's throttle tip in is ultra aggressive. If you do a 20-80 3rd gear (MT) pull in a Vortech vs Innovate car, the Innovate never pulls more than about 3-4 feet before the Vortech starts reeling in the Innovate car.

Likewise, if you do a 20-80 pull in a VQ35DE 350Z vs AP2 S2000, the 350Z doesn't actually ever get more than about 5 feet ahead, before the S2k wizzes by.

In both cases, the Innovate and 350z *feel* subjectively much more powerful at low RPMs.

In my case, I'm never in the 1500-2500RPM range unless I'm strictly cruising; downshifting to accelerate comes naturally to me, and a 3 gear downshift isn't out of the ordinary when I'm driving.

Why do you prefer to not downshift for a pass street driving? Inconvenience? An Auto (or twin cluch in some other platforms) would fix that...

Different strokes for different folks.

The HR is a monster that keeps making power as the revs go up, whereas the DE/Revup falls on its face... the two are in completely different leagues. I also think the HR is a far, far superior engine to the VHR. The mechanical gearing on the HR is also ~15% more aggressive than the DE, which only adds to how good the HR feels...

A S2k with a HR would be a beast. Or a FRS with a HR....

I always took a dump on Innovate because it was import kit and knew long term support was not there. (Not a supercharger company) Not only that they were more evasive than most at answering any legit questions about their product.

Sprintex has been around but again it's an import kit, and that still factors in with cost and support.

But I can see why people love the twin screw it's great for the street, feels very strong. I just believe from a performance perspective the centrifugal blowers make more sense with how the power band works on this car. And as Mike said you want the power up top for track use.

I should add.... I average around 50k miles a year of driving. Street driveability is important to me.

Well then! Thanks for the information.

Yeah some of you could say that if I wanted more horses and power then I bought the wrong car
The reason why I was asking, was mainly because I looked at it this way.

If you're going FI route, one of the biggest reasons someone would do it is because to get more power. So that's why I was thinking if youre going to spend 4K on a innovate kit why not spend that same 4K on a Jackson and get much more Horses.

But yeah personal preferences lol.

Ugh, an awful lot of generalizations and subjective comparisons here:

"I do agree, big flat powerbands are nice for street driving, but I don't think that's why most people decided to purchase a FRS/BRZ. " - most people bought the FRS/BRZ because it offers a very capable and fun chassis for very little money. There's a rapidly growing aftermarket for the FA20, mostly because people are looking for more power and a better power band. Headers are a hot item, mostly because it improves low end torque.


"The big difference in driveability is not that the Innovate makes more power down low, but that the Innovate's throttle tip in is ultra aggressive. If you do a 20-80 3rd gear (MT) pull in a Vortech vs Innovate car, the Innovate never pulls more than about 3-4 feet before the Vortech starts reeling in the Innovate car." - specific examples? Vortechs range from 230whp to over 300whp peak. Innovate kits vary from 210whp to 300whp. I have no doubt that a "tuned up" Vortech kit will zoom by a base map non-intercooled Innovate kit. Take an Innovate kit tuned to 280 whp (common), and a vortech kit tuned to 280 whp (common) and the Innovate kit will walk away from the Vortech kit.

"Why do you prefer to not downshift for a pass street driving? Inconvenience? An Auto (or twin cluch in some other platforms) would fix that..." - Well I don't particularly mind downshifting, like I said I enjoy it most of the time. But you have to be prepared - many times in traffic situations you're caught in a lower gear but need to make a quick decision to accelerate (switching lanes in traffic etc.) Big torque band makes it effortless. I prefer a manual because I enjoy the experience, I shouldn't have to resort to a different gearbox because my engine is peaky - I'd rather just resort to a well designed/tuned PD SC or turbo system.

Not really looking to butt heads with anyone on this - to each their own, but I don't really think you can argue that a peaky torque curve is generally superior or preferable to a flat torque curve. Centrifugal superchargers are a compromise system - they work well enough (especially for track use), but there's a reason manufacturers don't use them, because well engineered positive displacement systems or turbochargers are just a better option.

At my local autocross events, the course is really technical. Often the best method is to just leave it in second and just drive.

At those events, I spend a lot of the time below 5k. Now I am defintely not the fastest guy, but Probably 99.9% of the participants drive the same way. Just better at keeping it in the higher rpms than I. (I lack confidence in myself and the Car. Partially because breaking something is always in the back of my mind)

For that reason, I would prefer a PD blower over a Centrifugal unit.

I'll throw my two cents in. Full disclosure, I am an innovate/sprintex owner.

Basically, my car is 99.9% a street car. I drive it every day there's not snow or ice or a ton of water on the ground. I also have E85 very readily available.

On E85, the Innovate kit pushes very close to 300whp, depending on tune. In my opinion, that's the sweet spot for this car. Any more power and you really have to start beefing up the drivetrain. Anymore than that, and you're going to roast anything less than 255s.

So the Innovate kit is the most fun option for me. I can jab the throttle at 2.5k and spin the rear tires. I've got as much power as I really want and I have it very early. Compared to a centrifugal kit at the same power level, the area under the curve, and therefore the felt acceleration, is higher, especially from a low RPM.

I have no idea what the word is on the sprintex kit. Is it CARB exempt? is it Pending? I keep getting different answers from different people.

For us Cali guys (who care about legality), that is one reason NOT to get the innovate kit over the JR kit.

My issue with the Sprintex right now is that it seems as if the company won't take ownership of their product and provide adequate support/service like jackson racing/CSG.

His Youtube fans really bought him a new Mustang? Really? How do you know that? Did he mention it in one of his videos?

If that's true, that's pretty fucking retarded.

What makes you say the Kraftwerks SC is not suited for DD-ing? I'm sure people can get used to the increased torque and adjust their driving to it.

go turbo if you want big power, dont have to deal with CARB, and you want the best bang for your money. the reason why someone would choose a supercharger over a turbo is for the response (I would assume), which I think innovate provides. to me, same cars can have exactly the same horsepower and torque figures but it`s all about the curve. Innovate kit feels most like the naturally aspirated engine to me, which is important.

I agree with turbo that's why I bought one. Who cares about the track and setting world records I'm all about making this car exciting and turbo does that well. Plus off boost this car drives normal and gets good fuel economy if that matters.

I am pretty sure I am going to pull the trigger on the Sprintex Supercharger. How is the torque in the upper RPM range?

Looking at a dyno chart should tell you that.

Check out this thread.

From the dyno, torque seems to peak and hold steady at about 190 ft-lbs from 4.5k to 6k. And after 6k, TQ seems to slightly decrease. But the drop in TQ is small enough that you probably wouldn't even notice it.

http://i.imgur.com/2bv5t3D.png

This is why I swapped from innovate twin screw to turbokit (was also considering a centrifugal sc).

The max amount of power I could make on the twin screw was 230 whp dynojet on 91 oct even with the intercooler.

I also realized when I was driving spiritedly(or tracking) I was never in the low rpms. That is what you buy a FI kit for right? To enjoy driving spiritedly more?

Don't get me wrong, I was pretty happy and excited to have any kind of FI on the car at all. After a few months the novelty of the "low end torque" wore off completely and I was stuck with a kit that heat soaked and performed inadequately on the circuits we have out here.

One moment stands out to me where I was behind a stock BRZ coming onto the front straight and our acceleration down the front straight was almost identical... I wasn't datalogging but I am sure the ecu was pulling timing due to heat/knock. I expected to pass the BRZ at least by the end of the straight but couldn't. I never got to try it with e85 and in some ways I do wish I did. I probably would have enjoyed it more and maybe, just maybe I would have left it on the car.

Anyways, if you just like putting around town and you don't do much "sports" driving, then the twin screw is nice.

You could easily search date ranges and come to a conclusion :)

Here you go, they helped him that is for sure.

https://fundanything.com/en/campaign...stang-ecoboost

At the bottom it mentions a reward for the donation? Why would anybody give him money? It's pretty hilarious to watch him giggle like a little girl when he hits boost.

How would I know, I didn't give him any.

Taking advantage of his followers.. lol pathetic. He' s already making money from the ads in his video and yet, he wants his fan to donate.. Not donate for people in need of money, but donate so he can spoil himself with a brand new car.. wow