Help out a rookie?
 

I've been looking into purchasing a Scion FR-S for a couple of weeks now. After looking at all the cars in the market, for <$30,000, this seems to be the best "bang for my buck." The only issue that isn't even an issue is the horsepower. Everyone I've talked to or asked about, or even seen reviews from has a comment against the engine's power. No one's said it's terrible, as the car is quite light, but that it could use some extra power. So, what better than going with a Forced Induction?

I debated on turbo vs supercharger, but since the car operates at lower speeds, I think I'd get more by going with an sc. Then the problem arises, which one? I've looked at many guides, and would like to thank everyone for the amazing compilation's that they have made. That truly helped out, but in the end, I'm still a rookie somewhat walking around in candy-land.

The main three guides I've looked into are:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55705
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81487
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=56783

I will not be personally setting everything up, I've got a friend that's more than willing to do it, and isn't charging me much. Plus he owns a shop and has a dynotune. So, any tips/ideas/thoughts, are more than welcome.

Also, the budget is around $5k, not including the fee for having it set up.

Ps. Any one know where I could get my hands on a FR-S Monogram series? :D

If I were buying now and wanted FI, I would find an already built car. More importantly, if I were buying and wanted more power, I would get a car with more power stock. Other than a tune, the expense of power mods make a used Porsche or Corvette attractive for the power hungry.

I find that I really enjoy revving through the gears, and an extra 100 hp would make that a far shorter experience.

So keeping the car stock isn't as bad as others have said? I mean the cars light compared to many, but really I'm in for the car overall.
What about the three different year versions? 2013, 2014, and 2015. Which one might be the best for a guy that's in it for the fun. No racing or anything.

1. Cool on you that you've done some research, that will give better responses and show you aren't a dolt

2. If you've owned freeway monsters (high displacement, high hp) in the past, the FRS may feel real slow on the straights. The twisties bring the life to this vehicle and those who say it is slow, probably commute in it or live in the flat states

3. FI is indeed the most cost effective option to narrowing the gap from "gets passed by most family oriented vehicles" to contender.

4. Get a '14 or '15 and save yourself the worry of first-year TSB headaches (most have received fixes)

Another one brainwashed by supercharger propaganda.

The power isn't bad at all, but the chassis can handle more. I came from a 550i. It did 0 to 60 in about 5 seconds. I really don't miss anything but the stereo and seats from that car. I do really enjoy the flat torque of our Fiat 500e. It makes squirting round really easy. That said, if I am paying attention and staying in the right gear, driving the frs like its meant, the frs is loads faster and more fun. Like I said, though, I do recommend a tune. And stickier tires are nice on the street.

OP - Where are you located?

If youre seriously interested in just the car, i would reccomend staying stock. You can reduce the drivetrain weight (lightweight flywheel and driveshaft) for better rev response and some weight reduction along with exhaust and other bolt ons + a tune and tires (maybe some suspension trinkets). This will give you a porsche/lotus like driveing feel along with feeling much faster. No need to go turbo rught out of the box.

^This^
I bought mine fully expecting to go FI based upon what I had read in the reviews. Once I drove it a bit the reality was that I didn't feel the need for more power then I could get with a simple drop in filter, exhaust and suspension tweaks..
There is a huge disconnect between the on paper specs and the feel of wheels on pavement with these cars.
At least drive one for a bit before deciding.

Drive the car first. Then determine if you REALLY need more power.

With a 5k budget for parts (not labor, but including EcuTek), if you want a reliable setup, turbos are out of your price range.

Wat? Do elaborate, though!

Actually, OP is brainwashed by "lack of power" propaganda it seems...

@Outride:

The car in stock form has plenty of horsepower. If you feel it's lacking in that area, the car wasn't a good fit for you to begin with.

But of course, that's just my opinion. Feel free to formulate your own unbiased, second-hand opinion about the car.

-alex

I agree you should drive the car and live with it for a while before going FI. I've had mine since May of '12 and just started adding power. The car is a blast at stock HP if the road is twisty enough.

I think what he is getting at is that turbo's, especially twin scroll, are not that far off from S/c with respect to on demand power.

I installed my turbo for under 5k. Including tuning and catch can

Do you think it would survive 5 back to back hot laps at the track with me driving? That's the bar I set for reliability.

So far, only 2 turbo cars have withstood this challenge, and both of them had significantly more than 5k in their drivetrains.

No it would not. I daily drive my car and it is fine for the street but wouldn't survive a track day. I don't think a 5k budget is enough for any FI 86 for the track. But for a street car it can be done.

On a hot day, the stock car can't do all that many hot laps without an oil cooler. With a turbo, you need extra, extra, extra cooling, and then your brakes need to be bigger. And you probably need more rubber. And that stock suspension is now looking a bit overwhelmed. Oh, your clutch is gone. Get a new one. Hey, you didn't put in a new fuel system? Are you nuts? Gee, I hope the oil pressure can stay up with all that horsepower. Oh snap! There goes a rod because you drove it like you meant it with 300whp.

If you wanna go to the track and don't want to spend lots, a stock car with upgraded pads, upgraded fluid, a tune, and an oil cooler are all you need. If you want more than that, spend shit loads of money.

Now if you want to stay on the street, no problem with a turbo, or at least fewer problems.

When you say "low speed driving" do you mean Hittin The Streets? If so, then a Vortech/JR/Kraftwerks SC might be the right answer. If you instead mean low RPM driving or accelerating at a lower RPM, then turbo is the answer. Those SC kits don't produce max boost until redline where a properly sized turbo can produce max boost in the 3000 RPM range right where you need it. You will get a surge of torque and acceleration with no need to rev it all the way to redline.

Okay thank you. I appreciate it when people actually give tips/ideas on what mods could be used. I was debating on recuding weight, and possibly give the suspension's an upgrade if I ended up not sc'ing or going turbo.

I completely agree. Paper and real life are quite different. Every agency I've had a talk with has pretty much begged me to come drive the car. Wonder why that's so? ;D Non the less, I think I will drive both auto and manual, just to get a feel of each. Then possibly deicide.

Interesting way of putting it. So far I've only looked at the specs on paper for multiple different cars. And after narrowing it down as much as possible began watching reviews. Which led to forums such as this. Which did not neccessarily seem to "push for" FI, but many seem to agree with it. Hence the post, I was simply asking for opinions.

:thanks: all! I believe I replied to most. Or at least those with questions or ones I could answer to. :)

Its not slow by any means i mean its fast enough to kill you, if you want power get a mustang or like an accord coupe with the v6. The frs/brz is about as fast as a civic or elantra but its handling is great and looks better then either of those 2 cars. Long story short of you want a fast cat, get a faster car from the start

I am so impressed with this forum. :respekt:

OP, I 100% agree with the majority of people in this thread. If you like the car drive it for a while before laying out any cash on FI. A few of things I have noticed during my ownership:
1. The car will feel slow when new. When you are breaking it in and keeping the revs low it does ok but is far from its best. Also it felt like after the first 6 months it loosened up further so first impressions aren't exactly accurate.
2. The car needs to be driven. It is not one that you can be lazy with. If you want to accelerate change down some gears, above 5k rpm it is a much happier beast.
3. Learn to drive around the torque dip. Unless you get the right header and tune (or go FI) there will be a dip in power between about 3.5k and 4.5k rpm. Use the gears and stay out of this area. Also don't expect much below 2k rpm.
4. Get an E85 tune :thumbsup:

FWIW,

I don't suggest FI w/ a 5k budget. There's way more to just power as others have said (ie rubber, brakes, cooling, dyno time, etc.)

This is what I have done in terms of powertrain, and I love it so far.
-EcuTek off the shelf tune
-Supertek intake tube and panel filter
-Complete exhaust system (catted EL header, uncatted front pipe)
-Motul and AmsOil fluids

That should use up about 3-4k depending on your selection in exhausts. Spend the rest on other things that you'd fancy, such as stereo upgrade, clear bra, cosmetic kits, rear view camera, dashcam, floormats, etc.

Hmmm, thats an interesting challenge...

What kind of times do you do at laguna or thunderhill in the CSG car?

I kind of want you to try that in my own car(there is more then $5k into the car, but not into the engine/turbo kit), but I want to be in the car when it happens.

So its not a completely :threadjacked: comment,

OP, I will say I have done the full N/A bolt on and Forced induction route, I still occasionally regret going FI because of how fun this car is with just bolt ons, tires and good brake pads and how annoying it can be to try and keep these cars cool on the track.

I've never really attempted a record pace lap at either track...

What's done to your car? I can probably give you an educated guess on the result.

Haha, well I don't know how hard you drive, but I would assume in 5 laps you could get my oil quite hot and probably cook my brakes. I haven't seen over 240 degree oil temps yet, but Im no pro..

It has the SBD/Zage turbo kit, 2.5" catless nameless, ceramic coated charge pipes, lava wrapped headers, lava blanket on the turbo, koyo radiator, kate shrouded non-thermostatic oil cooler, ducted bumper and radiator foam, Tein Streetflex coils, Tired RE050a run flats(waiting on rs3's to come into stock), whiteline front sway, STI brembo's on all four corners, Winmax W4's, whiteline bushings everywhere, Southbend clutch, MAP VTA catch cans, and I'm sure I'm forgetting things. 100oct when Im at the track and boost turned down to 9psi.

The brakes will give out first at Laguna.

I'm 100% sure I can overheat your car based on your mod list; I can't determine in which order the car will overheat though. With 91, coolant and oil is a tossup, depending on cooling and ambient temps. On 100, it'll likely be engine oil first. With E85 and enough power, the trans may come into play.

You should come play with us at 86CUP Round 2 at Buttonwillow on Feb 28th :)

I'm definitely glad to see you guys are open with your setup, unlike some others on the FI subforum :thumbsup:

All sounds about right to me! The fact that on a 78 degree ambient day, I was able to reach 240 with the oil so easily, has me planning for the hotter months quite vigorously. Haha

Btw, I cooked my brakes BAD at Laguna 2 weeks ago on some stop tech pads.

I would love to come out there and play with you guys, it's definitely in my head to try and make. I would like to at least show my face at a few 86 cup events this year.

I love sharing my setup, as well as our other car(my boss's) running a similar setup but on e85. I'm not a fan of secrecy like these other places, we are out there testing for our own benefit and the customers, and I like my customers to know when sh*t doesn't work!

Not really. He can easily have a turbo installed for well under $5k with tune.

Speed by Design turbo kit and Works Stage 1 turbo's cost around $3k. Both are pretty good kits.

FI on the Twins is actually pretty reseasonable cost wise.

I'm sorry, but I cannot, in good faith, ever recommend setups that overheat or get dangerously hot with 30 seconds of hard driving...

30 seconds of hard driving on the streets (WOT on a long straight away or driving really hard, taking turns really fast without stopping) will land you in jail pretty quick. At 30 seconds of WOT, you are maxing out the car's speed, probably going 140-150mph. Very few people drive hard for that long on the streets.

Btw, where do you get reports of these kits overheating after 30 seconds? Not that I don't believe you but just wondering.

I'm sure with an oil cooler, some exhaust wrap and a turbo blanket, these kits should be ok with temps for a bit longer than 30 seconds. Unless your car has been sitting out in 100 degree weather for hours.... but then the driver should use common sense to begin with and be mindful of temps.

I do it myself....

WOT for 5 seconds, brake down, WOT 5 seconds, brake down, rinse and repeat, and watch that temp gauge skyrocket. It's no different from what you might be doing on a spirited mountain run, or on track.

You'd be surprised how few drivers can watch their temps while driving at or close to their limits on a spirited run.

LOOOOOOL. OK, seriously, you are NOT going to win this fight with CSG Mike. Not only are you wrong, you're embarrassing yourself. Much love. LOL.

Dude, shut it. Who said anything about winning? Its about offering a different perspective.

Not everyone pushes their car to the limit, especially when the driver knows the limits of their car. In fact, any car, anywhere can be broken at the race track if pushed hard enough for long enough, even an F1 car...... why do you think they have pit stops during races?

For fueling and replacing worn tires? You don't replace broken engines on a pit stop...

My point is that a turbo is fine for just daily driving, but if that's all your're going to do, then why bother turboing the car at all? You boost a car to drive it fast and hard...

OP
I have owned two BRZs. One was FI, and the second(current) is NA with headers and E85 tune. Believe me, keep the car NA for a while. Enjoy it, savor it, take it to an autocross and appreciate the simplicity of it. Learn to feel the nuances of the car. Not to mention, you may go out there and embarrass some smoking cars, with less than smoking drivers. :)


You can learn from my experience or go drop 12K on a turbo kit and after the novelty of having some stupid power at your fingertips, you will kinda miss your ole NA BRZ. One is simple and just damn fun. The turbo is loads of fun, until its not so much. But this is coming from a guy who has built up a lot of cars just for power sake(STI/EVO/BMW/Porsche). Then I got more serious about AX and tracking. I want to learn. So I gave up my Turboed Cayman. I bought a used Miata. AX'd (autocrossed) that for a year. I learned a ton, I will never make fun of a Miata again. Then I got my second BRZ. I will run my second season with it this year. Then next winter the plan is to go back to a Cayman (and not turbo it) and continue my little journey.


If you don't know the answer now, then do nothing. In time you will know what you want. Hope that made sense, and was helpful.

:lol::lol::lol::bow::bow::bow:

Please get a GT4...

That's funny. I just made the GT4 my new desktop wallpaper this morning. I would love to get the GT4. But man that is some serious money, do-able thank god... but man...whew...we will see. However, that does mean next winter there should be a good selection of used 981s with better pricing.


If I go the Porsche route (which is damn likely) it will definitely be the 981. The wife already tracks a 987.2, but hers is a PDK. But that engine in the GT4....all I gotta say is, Thank you Porsche...ITS ABOUT DAMN TIME.