Scion's biggest enemy is their own dealerships.
 

Ive been lurking in these forums for some time watching the excitement of this car coming to release, but I didn't really have much to say until today.

I really don't understand what these dealerships are trying to accomplish by lying to their consumers. And it isn't just Scion per se, as others have done it before, but Scion is the most recent.

I went to the local Toyota/Scion dealership that had just gotten two FR-Ss, one silver, one Firestorm, both automatics. I first inquired when they might have a manual. The salesman said he really didn't know, but he did know that those were the only two they were getting for some time unless I wanted to order one. I came back 2 days later after attempting to find a manual one in the local area to check out one of the ones they had so I at least could figure out if I was genuinely interested in the car.

Disclosure: I fully plan on buying a car in the next few months, but I want to test drive all of the cars on my list first.

They are: 2013 Genesis Coupe 2.0t (driven)
2011+ Mustang V6 (driven)
2012 Mazda MX-5 Hard top (driven)
2013 FR-S (not driven)
2013 Hyundai Veloster Turbo (not driven
2013 Ford Focus ST (not driven)

Yes, I am very much in the low to mid 20's speed/performance category.

I arrived at the dealership to find one of the FR-Ss had sold (the red one), no big, I was more interesting in what the platform had to offer. So I was approached by a salesman and we chatted a bit and grabbed the keys to the silver one, he opened the car up for me. As I was climbing into the driver's seat, he said "btw we aren't taking this car out on the road". I proceeded to ask him why not? "Well we don't want to rack up the mileage for the person who is going to buy it". I asked if it was sold. He said no. Is there a sale pending? "No". Has anyone else expressed interest? "No". I then asked him "how am I supposed to determine if I like the car if I cannot drive it?". He said "once the money is on the table, then we let you drive it". I proceeded to say that that was unacceptable. And I am not putting any money on the table for an unknown quantity. He said "well it will sell for the price we have listed, so we aren't going to drive it". I told him "I understand that you can't let every 19 year old kid who thinks it looks cool to joyride in it, but no consumer with half a brain buys a car and THEN gets to drive it". He proceeded to say "well we don't care if they are 19 or 65, this thing is rare and we need to see money first". I told him it was rare for this month, and then as rare as any other mass produced Toyota in the following months. I then glanced at the odometer. It had 22 miles on it. I asked him, so you deffinately aren't driving it eh? "No". "Well who put the extra miles on it?". "Well the technicians needed to drive it to get a feel for the car". I just smiled with a "mmhmm" and I then left. I'm sure those young mechanics were most certainly treating the vehicle like the delicate flower the salesman was trying to make it seem like....

Here is what I don't get. The insistance of these dealerships that when they get a new somewhat sporty model no one drives it until it is sold/paid for first. Ford was no different when the Shelby came out. I have gotten a test drive in a 335i and 135i without so much as a hiccup, and I didn't joyride either even though I didn't buy them (truth be told I wanted the 135 bad, but the repair bills worried me for a turbo German car), but a 25k Toyota is now somehow some sort of mythical beast? Also, somehow the "these are rare" myth persists, even though we know how many of them are going to be here by year's end. How on earth is someone supposed to know if a vehicle is worth their time and money, if they can't test drive it? Pay and pray? Why is it the Merc dealer is more willing to let me check out his 100k SLK before the Ford dealer will even open the door for the Shelby?

I am legitmately interested in this car, because I am in love with the MX-5. I just can't make it work because I can't fit a guitar or a rifle case in it. On pure driving credentials, the MX is the clear winner. When I factor in practicality, the Mustang wins. I am hoping the FR-S is the MX5 +2 that I am hoping for that has just enough room for a decent sized guitar case, but these dealerships, my current experience and stories of rediculous antics and markups is off-putting for those who are normal non fanboy, educated consumers. The only other dealership in the area, listed 13 of them on it's website. I went there yesterday hoping to see a nice assortment of the various colors and such, as it turns out, they had ONE hot lava automatic, the rest were "their projected allocation" for the next 4 months. Seriously? Can they even do that?

/rant

TL,DR Scion dealers because they are Toyota salesmen are leaving a sour taste in the fanbase who are legitimately interested in this car by employing the usual deceptive dealer tactics.

I guess I just have an awesome dealership. hope you find what you're looking for.

Funny how they mentioned it's rare. What do you except, it's been offically out for a week! Give it a year or so and we'll see about the rarity of this car

but yeah, it's not only scion dealerships. All car brands have bad dealerships

I have emailed the promoter and have been told there will be a FR-S First Drive event in Chicago on June 30-July 1. Don't know where yet but I'll post when I find out if someone doesn't beat me to it. It may not be as good as a real test drive, but it will be seat time in and AT FR-S.

:( Sorry to hear that you're going through this. It seems in general not many Dealerships know what's going on in the first place and so it does seem like we're chasing a Unicorn here. I drive every day and haven't even seen any FR-S on the road and I'm traversing the most popular freeways in LA. I put money down (refundable) and have no clue when my car will be in...only that I am on the wait list and the dealer is expecting another allocation soon.

same thing with chevy, a few years back i really wanted a camaro so i went to test drive it, they didnt let me drive the SS, just a 1LS, i went to bmw, infiniti, n merc, n i got to drive their 135i, g37 and c350 no problem.

The dealership that sold me mine not only let me drive it, they brought it off the show room floor to do so. And leading up to that moment, both parties knew I wasn't there to buy that one as I wanted to wait for a white one.

It sucks that you had to deal with that, some of the dealerships here in AZ even have demo units on the lot. I know for certain Avondale Scion has one that they will let you beat the piss out of, and the sales manager has been taking it home every night for the last week.

Wow, they won't even let you drive it without buying it?! When I looked for mine I made a list of all the dealers in Texas with manual transmissions in any color not black and called the few closest to me. The cars weren't in yet but they called me the next day when they arrived and let me come in to test drive. All you can do is look online for all the Toyota/Scion dealerships in your area with FR-S's and call around to try and schedule a test drive hopefully...

As far as a gun case goes...the Factory case for my Sig 522 just barely fits in the rear space...perfectly snug in place right across the trunk opening like it was made for it - but you can only get it into the snug position with the rear seatback down and moving it diagonally across the towards the trunk opening. Case outer dimension are 48 3/4" L x 11 3/4" W x 4 3/8" H. With the rear seats down there is lots of room. Guitar case no problem either, just checked a full size acoustic case and had to put the rear seat down to get it in, but once in and the rear seat locked back in place there was still plenty of room in the trunk for other stuff with the guitar case.

I would say right now you are in love with the MX-5 because you haven't driven an FR-S yet! ;) And unlike a miata, the FR-S is comfortable for a regular size human being to drive.... the seats, steering wheel, and MT shifter = perfect positioning! Once you drive an FR-S I don't think you'd go back to an MX-5, it delivers driving joy beyond that of a Miata to me (I like cars as sensitive and quick to respond as possible - the less input I have to do with a precise desired output from the vehicle the better.)

I don't have much need for cargo hauling, but i do need to be able to haul stuff for my hobbies.

Do these dealerships seriously think they are doing themselves any favors by pulling this crap? Do they inspire any brand enthusiasm or loyalty? I still have the business card of the guy I test drove the 2011 Mustang V6 PP with (back in 2010 when it was brand spanking new) and if I were to buy today he'd get first crack at making a deal if I bought one. I also have the cards of the guy I test drove the Genesis, the 135i and the MX5 as well. Im not going to let them rip me off, but they would get first chance at making the sale for those vehicles as I was treated well, and they gave me proper test drive time. I know these are for profit entities, but I work in customer service (delivery specifically) for a furniture company chain which moves millions of inventory a month, and repeat business is always weighed in to any sort of business/customer relationship, even if you take a small profit hit in the short term.

Some salesman just don't understand good business/customer relationships. Just stay away from that dealership, they clearly employ idiots.

I had the same issue when I went to go look at one. I'm with you one this one I'm not buying/signing jack until I test drive. But I also see the dealers perspective. All anyone keeps talking about is how well it drives, and the last thing they need is for some idiot to go in there turn off the traction control and wreck as soon as the hit the first turn because they think they're the "drift king". Hell even at the scion drive event I went too a couple of weeks ago they had the traction control button sealed off so you couldn't get to them, so even SCION HQ has this concern. Plus you gotta realize, this is the easily first "nice" car SCION has ever had. And as such these dealers have no idea what to do with car, probably even forgot how to sell cars they're so dumbstruck. Hell I remember this one time I went to a SCION dealer months before this car came out, to look around and get some info on the FRS, and I swear to you it looked like a scene out of that movie The Goods. I never seen so many hungry salesmen in my life. Every five seconds there was someone asking me if I wanted to see a car, what car do i drive, blah blah blah. At one point one salesman got mad at another because he thought he was snaking his deal. So I snuck out while they were arguing. It was a sad sight to see. So you can see how these guys are going crazy, now that people are even interested in this car (that song Jizz in my pants comes to mind). Now does it mean they have to act like this 26k car is a Ferrari or something. No. But give it some time for the hype to die down, and you should be able to walk in and test drive one no problem. These are not going to be super rare like they are claiming, Toyota/Scion want money and this is their saving grace. They'll make sure they meet demand.

The salespeople/manager at the Scion dealership I tried to go through originally lost a sale from me, as well.

Not only that, but I won't go back to that dealership again in the future when it's time for my girlfriend to replace her CX-7. They'd be lucky if I even considered the brand.

I was at the Subaru dealership talking with a sales guy about one of the last BRZ's they sold and he accidentally admitted that they and the Scion dealer were having "fun" with the BRZ and an FR-S behind the Scion dealer... -_-

The odometer might only say 5 miles, but it makes me shiver to think what kind of miles those were.

Oh yea the frustration....I had a dealer went as far as saying "we can't sell you this FRS unless you have a trade in"....I basically told them to f@ck off....

I have to disagree with you in regards to them not allowing a test drive...kudos to them. They apparently don't have a demo model, so why should they turn a new vehicle into one for you or anyone else?

That's fantastic that the eventual customer will come along that has driven one elsewhere, and came to purchase theirs that has NOT been test driven by every Tom, **** and Harry.

I will not buy an FR-s that has over 10 miles on it unless I'm the one who put them there. Yes it would have been nice if they let you test it, but at the same time it is even more nice that the purchaser will be buying as pristine an example as possible.
.
.
.
The solution is simple: find a dealer that does grant test drives then buy it there or anywhere now that you've driven one. My local dealer has a Raven AT, neither my color or tranny choice. It already had 388 miles on it!!! Even if I wanted those options, there is no way in hell I'd buy a new car with 388 miles. That is no longer a new car, it's used or a demo and shouldn't be sold for full price. My dealer is selling it as a demo(rightfully so).

Not really surprised... Since the car is new, there are idiots who will buy the car without test driving. Once the hype dies down, it will probably be sold in a regular procedure like any other car.

Low supply, high demand means that dealers can do crazy sh** and get away with it because of the skewed market. Not saying this is right, be it should be expected when you buy a new model.

Give it a year or two and those dealers trying to do that will not sell sh**.

The dealer I have bought my last 2 cars at... insisted that any test drive would include him in the passenger seat... Which was annoying as my girlfriend who was along doesn't drive so she was either going to have to ride separately with the sales guy driving or in the back seat... So we took our test drive... we liked the look and feel of the car, even with her in the backseat, so we decided to run our credit... Tier one approval... no $ down... good to go...

ME: "Now we test drive alone... and we don't sign anything until after we drive and then we make a final decision."

What could they say? The money was on the table... And if they said "No", I would have said "thanks for setting up the bank... I'll just go to the next dealer and tell them I've already been approved..."

...reluctantly they let us go alone but asked us to please not take it out on the interstate... which I really didn't understand but this car shines better off the big roads anyway...

We decided and we bought...

They wanted to "hold" the car for 2-3 days because they only had the one and were (are?) still waiting to take delivery of 2 more... but we nixed that... Do you really let a guaranteed sale walk just so you can park the car in the showroom for two days and let people rub all over it... Cuz I'll be damned if they were going to get it for a few days... We signed and drove it home.

There are reasons that this is the last dollars I will spend at that dealership... but they are unrelated to the test drive...

So you bought a car without a test drive? If you did get a test drive did you buy that car?

I would never buy a car without a test drive, which I why I suggested he find one to drive, then buy anywhere(the lowest mileage one).

No, did not purchase. I can't find a manual Argento near me, or any manual for that matter to drive. And if I do it most likely will have been molested already so I'd pass. I went just to look, they offered the drive. If it had no(10 or less) miles I would have declined and waited pointing out the reason I mentioned previously.

I'm going to have to order one, but not until I test a manual first. The AT gave me an idea of how the car drives/rides/feels only and ruined much of the drive due to being such an awkward method of driving(I cannot drive AT!).

FYI, you'll never find 0 odo FRS/BRZ ANY DEALER IN THE WORLD. Literally impossible. Even you order from online, by the time get to you, it'll already have at least 10miles

There is a dealer nearby that has had two FRS's sitting on their lot since they were delivered last Friday. They both have fugly wheels slapped on along with a 2K mark-up to cover the cost of the wheels (They are refusing to remove the wheels right now...we'll see how long that lasts).

I was talking to a salesperson about the fact that other dealerships were having FRS's fly off the lot when sold at MSRP without add-ons, and he's like, "Oh, well, you're not going to find the FRS at MSRP right now...

...what a clueless dipsh...

Mine had 20 and I'm completely fine with that! I know it was only there for less than 24 hours. :D

While this whole experience can be frustrating, you just have to power through it and find a good dealership... or wait!

Lonewolf, you should keep a few window sticker pictures of the car at MSRP on your phone!

That's a good idea. Better yet, I wish the dealerships could all just jump on here and SEE all the people who have already purchased their car at MSRP.

It's not nearly that hard to find either, I'd say it's at least 70% of dealers here in NC aren't. I've only heard of two I believe that are, the other several I contacted are not. Some try to put their own "dealer package" (on every car, not just the FRS) but will easily back down once you tell them you do not want it. If they don't, walk away.

I look for between 5-10 miles based on my last 4 new cars. Because I live in Houston, it is common to find 5 mile new cars. I didn't mean to imply 0 miles, I know that's impossible.

In a perfect world every dealer would have a demo of every car they sell, however this is not the case due to costs. That being said, provided they aren't red line miles, im not going to pass up a car because it has 50 miles instead of 10. And it is bogus to expect an interested buyer to hunt down a test drive elsewhere and then expect them to buy from you.

Im glad I got mine with 9 miles --- nobody touched it but me ... Kudos to them also... i dont want some dork reving up on the redline in the first 100miles either.

and i got the same story every where else too btw...

Which is why I am more than happy to wait, I'm not 12 anymore, I can wait. Eventually a manual will show up locally and be test-driveable, then I'll be ready to buy anywhere at anytime.

Keep in mind the Raven with 388 miles before my test...obviously had a lot pf people drive it and NOT buy it. That must have been at least 20-30 different test drives/customers passing on it.

On that particular one, but what says they didnt buy a different one? A test drive ups the odds of a sale.

Or.. what if every single one of those 20-30 people babied it! ;)

I'm in Socal, I was able to test drive all the car when schedule an appointment with the Internet fleet department. I learn that u can't just randomly walk in and ask for test drive. Talk to the dealership, made an appointment and most of the time they let u drive it. From my experience, I test drove the s2000,evo, 335, 550i, z4, e92 m3, c63, E550, ML350, GTR

Had 18 on mine when I got it, the general manager was the only one that drove it. The techs didn't even drive it. (whether or not thats true...who knows)

My tC back in 07 had 3 miles on it. I expected similar, but doubted it would happen.

That is the type of dealership i bought my car from, i waited 4 years for this car, over the course of 5 days my car didnt leave the spot i first saw it in... they wouldnt let any under a 780 credit score test drive it, that i am thankful for, they are protecting this car for enthusiasts that need the car in their life.

personally i wouldnt have bought my frs if it had more than 15 miles on it at the deanship, plus if they let ANYONE drive it, you have a ton of people trashing the engine, any dealership that doesnt allow people to test drive brand new sports cars without money on the table is a great dealership in my book, that means they most likely didnt abuse it nor did any one else get a chance to...

what would you buy a car with 11-15 miles no test drives or a car with 500 miles and 100 people romping on the engine and transmission....

Because a test drive consists of a 20 mile around the block cruise. I guess they (Toyota) forgot to bring back class to their dealerships when selling a TRUE sports car. I'm sorry I won't pay for a damn thing unless I know what I am getting.

I actually did. I told the guy I'm here for the ride, I know how quick it is.


That's why each dealership needs a demo model. It's not their fault there aren't enough to go around + demos.

I agree and disagree with this thread.

I agree that a person should be able to walk to a dealer, and be able to test drive the car they are interest in.

I agree that before any monies are put on the table the buyer knows exactly what kind of product he/she is about to purchase.

I also disagree that you need to test drive any car on the lot. If there are 10 FRS on the lot, I would not allow anyone to touch those cars. I would have a specific FRS car appointed as a demo car to show to customers.

I also disagree that dealers are treating their customers like crap and driving them away. While I can run down to a BMW dealer..in shorts and a beater, and test drive a brand new M3 off the lot without putting down any monies...this is not the same scenario as the FRS.

Its not about status, wealth, or misinformation. Its about the allocated number of vehicles per region, and being able to push to the specific target market, which sales reps are trained to deal with.

Member Godzilla in post #31 gives a good solution, one iv done numerous times myself and had much better experiences per dealer...vs doing a walk-in at the same dealers.

Mine had 7 at the port, and 7 at the dealer when I picked it up.

But yeah, they do about 5km (3miles) of test cycle QC check at the factory dyno, and they do drive it in a huge parking lot both at loading the ship, and unloading the ship at respective ports. Dealers also drive it to the gas station to fuel it with local fuel usually about 1/4 tank.



so it is not possible to get one with ZERO, unless you don't want them to check your engine and driveline/suspension... :D

my local Scion dealership let me test drive the FRS on two seperate occasions and the salesmen knew i wasnt planning on buying one for a year or so. but he was very nice and let me take out the manual one the first time then i came back with the fiance and took out the auto one and let her drive it also. he wasnt pushy or anything about going and trying to figure out numbers or anything. he just said ill call you and let you know when we get another manual in incase your ready to purchase one. I have noticed that the scion and subaru salesmen keeping using the word "rare" when they are talking about the car.

Can’t necessarily fault the dealers for not allowing test drives if the vehicles are already sold; however, when I was inquiring about pre-orders, some dealers in my area were requiring nonrefundable deposits. I felt like telling them that would be equivalent of finding someone on an online dating site and buying an engagement ring strictly based on the person’s online profile before going on the first date….
Personally, I think Scion corporation deserves its fair share of the blame too. When I look at the posts, it seems a lot of frustration originates with them. Consider the following:
- Apparent lack of communication during the First 86 program between dealers and Scion. How many winners called to place their deposits with the dealers only to have the dealers reply back they knew nothing of the First 86 promotion, let alone a winner selected their dealer.
- The inconsistency of doc fees and lack of enforcement of Pure Pricing. For a system that markets itself as consumer friendly, it is obvious that the consumer is at a disadvantage. I can understand local / state taxes and registration fees varying, but unless there is a legal limitation, dealers are free to charge whatever they want for doc fees. If Pure Pricing was indeed for the benefit of both buyer and seller, then dealers who markup beyond MSRP should receive the same repercussion as those who sell below MSRP.
- Considering the overwhelming demand for the car, why advertise on TV now? There are pre-orders yet to be filled and what is Scion going to accomplish when the average consumer is interested at goes to the dealer only to discover there are none available to see or test drive. Most of us here in the forum have waited and are willing to wait, but I doubt the average consumer is that patient considering other vehicles that are readily available. IMHO, the marketing money initially spent on these advertisements could have been better used on more driving events like the ones in Baltimore and Charlotte. Let the car sell itself!!
I’ll get off my soapbox now.
/Rant

Beat me to the punch on this one. All your points ^above^ are exact ones I would make.

My experience is that Corporate has a better handle on it than the dealers, but not by much.

A couple more examples from the 1st86 program.

Inconsistency in the delivery of the cars. Some were done with great fanfare, some (like mine) were barely normal car deliveries.

Communication with the group since Long Beach has been nonexistent. In fact, even the end of the Long Beach event was anti-climatic. We went to the race on Saturday and, well, nothing after that. No closeout event that night, no note on our pillow saying thanks for coming, nothing.

Don't get me wrong, it was a great event, and overall a good program where I got exactly what I was promised, early delivery of the car, but it just fell off a cliff. In the end, it was done half-baked. Parts were well done and tasty, other parts of it were just plain raw and ingrediants were missing.

Technically, we still don't even know that the program has come to a close or not.