Quick mini-rant on the FRS and what we use it for
 

Hey everybody first time poster long time reader here,

First and foremost I just wanna say I'm 24 years old, live in Ontario, Canada, drive my car year-round and lap/compete at the tracks regularly.

I've been getting a lot of questions (the same ones I'm sure most of you have gotten), which can all really be summed up with "Why the FRS/BRZ?". All of my enthusiast friends and even non-enthusiasts always ask me the same thing - why I didn't buy a WRX/EVO/RHD TT RX-7 or some car of that sort and chose the 200hp 'underpowered' car that I did.

Now I was under the impression that this car was made to be an AFFORDABLE car that can be used for everyday driving, while still being able to drive it to the track - have loads of fun - then drive home safely. This is exactly what I use it for and this thing does it perfectly.

I commute 80km to-and-from work Mon-Fri then drive up to the track, throw down solid lap times and have a blast doing it, then drive home without a worry in my head. On top of the gas and insurance being very affordable and reasonable, I literally couldn't ask for an all around better setup. I get a lot of track time in the car without having to worry about mechanical issues which has made me a much better driver with just one season in my FRS.

This is what I believe the true nature of these cars is, the affordable everyday track car for guys like me and you and I couldn't be happier with it. Never thought I could have this kind of experience without spending all of my money but boy was I wrong.

Thanks for reading! I hope you get the same joy out of this car as I do!

Oh and here it is :)

Attachment 100743

Attachment 100744

Attachment 100745

No disagreements.

BTW, that's a lot of tape. How long does it take you to put that on?

Sounded more like a rave than a rant. But cool car brother.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I myself have never tracked it, but I like the idea that I could (one of these days). As a daily driver though, it's a wonderful car. Fun to drive, great handling, and a sleek design you can't get anywhere else for the price.

Yup.

Excellent daily driver.

A secondhand Lotus Elise is nearly the same price, but I think MOST of us would get pretty tired of driving one of those everywhere. And those don't have a fold-flat rear seat. :-)

It's the reliability, operating expenses, lack of dealer network, and lack of warranty, that makes a used Elise not be an option as a daily driver.

I just saw an Alfa 4C on the road....nice looking car. But it also has most of the issues of the Elise. I don't know about elsewhere but here both the Lotus, and the Alfa are sold and supported by dealers that also sell, Ferraris, Lambos, Maseratis etc. So repair & maintenance isn't cheap.

Str8- first of all, unlike 99% of the people that say "the car needs more power", you actually take your car to the track. You are having fun, and proving this is a nice car for the money.

Maybe someday (when the warranty expires) I will give that a try.. starting with autocross. As it is, I drive about once a month with a pack of friends that have other cute little cars. We drive hard but safe.

Why did I pick the FRS? You get so much more for your money than just about anything else. (Okay.. our other car is a Mustang.. and it's a lovely convertible! Great car for the money, too.) No way can I afford a Cayman- which is a much better car. It's such a much better car, I can't own one. So.. my FRS that I have is better than the Cayman I can't have. Easy peasy.

We don't need more power, we need more curves in the road!

Not only that you even bump the front end or rear end, it's not like snapping on a new bumper you have to replace the entire clamshell which is a 12 hour job, wait a month for parts or more. Every thing labor wise is a chore even jacking the car up, doing oil changes. Don't let the 32k used price fool you, it's not worth it unless you live for working on cars.

Those questions you get are actually "why didn't you do what I think is right?" So far, most of the negative comment I get regarding my choice, (I get them already and I haven't even taken delivery) demonstrate that the detractor has not really understood what the intent, or at least the arguable intent of the car was.

"It's only got 200hp!"

So does that. Everybody thought it was a gift from god a few years ago. 202hp and 203 lbft Source: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sr20det"]Nissan SR20DET - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

http://www.bosozokustyle.com/sites/d...sx-sr20det.jpg

So did that, but, again, it also walked on water. 200hp and 133 lbft Source: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_B_engine"]Honda B engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

http://ahmedrizk.com/wordpress/wp-co...10/06/b18c.jpg

What changed all of the sudden?
The FA20 pushes 200hp and 151 lbft of torque, what's fucking with you?

"It's slow!"

Oh really?

The Redtop SR20DET would push the 180SX from 0-60 in 6.5 seconds with a 1/4 mile down in 14.5. Source: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_180SX"]Nissan 180SX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

The B18C Integra Type R would snap from 0-60 in 6.7 seconds and roll over a 1/4 mile in 14.9. Source: http://www.autorooster.com/0-60-time...acura-integra/

That "weak" motor pushes the "slow" FRS/BRZ from 0-60 in 6.4 seconds and to the end of the drag strip in 14.8. Source: http://www.0-60specs.com/scion-fr-s-0-60-times/


That's a tossup across these three cars, two that fanbois for over a decade have worshipped and complained that they couldn't get in the states. Toybaru FINALLY gives people what they said they wanted (those pizza-faced kids whining back then are now grown, employed and able to buy new cars) and people are still bitching? Weaksauce. :slap:

The FRS does all that nipping at the heels of the 180SX even though it's 100lbs heavier than the Nissan and pulling harder from a dig and holding off the 2500 lb Teggy while dragging 300lbs more weight down the track.

Sources:
http://www.scion.com/cars/FR-S2014/specs/
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_180SX"]Nissan 180SX - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
http://fastestlaps.com/cars/honda_in...ype_r_dc2.html

Yeah, you know, if it seems like everything sucks, maybe it's not everything, maybe it's you.

Dude. It's 2015. Not 1990s.

Hmm about 20-25 minutes, usually get a friend to help :p I tend to run the car naked now

It's not even for rock chips (already have those) it's for the hot rubber pieces that come up from the track and melt into your paint!

Agreed to the fullest!

Thank you sir!

You appear to have catastrophically missed his point.

It's just the current state of car enthusiasts. It's all about highway pulls and stoplight-to-stoplight street "racing". Truth is, very few enthusiasts actually track their cars or seek out backroads.

Handling only matters to the extent you can brag about some lateral g number on paper. And balance and feedback are irrelevant - no numbers to brag about there.

The FR-S/GT86/BRZ weren't really intended to cater to those folks, so it'll be hard to explain the appeal. So it's a good thing you don't have to. Enjoy your car!

:burnrubber:

I am one of those that will likely never track but still like the car for the abilities it has, even on my day to day commute. Just the fact that I know I can whip it around to avoid hazards and that it will do exactly what I want, when I want, gives me some peace of mind.

I have only had a couple of people ever say it was underpowered when I told the HP and since they nodded knowingly when I said "but it is rear wheel drive" (as if that fact made it faster somehow) then I was well aware they didn't know shit about cars anyway.

The couple of guys at work that kept razzing me that it was "slow" changed their tune dramatically after I took them on a short ride on some secluded back roads. Pretty sure they both had to change their underwear after the first couple of turns.

If you're going to use the SR20 for comparison at least use the most recent one (which is still 15 years old at this point). The S15 Silvia had 250hp and cost about the same as an FR-S. There was even a non-turbo version had about the same 200hp as the FR-S, again 15 years ago.

That's one thing that surprised me too. I actually prefer driving my FR-S (vs. my GTI) on my daily commute through traffic because it's like an extension of me. I thought I'd prefer the GTI because it's more plush, but the FR-S feels so light and agile cutting through traffic, and gives a ton of feedback. It's one of those cars you just drive and think yeah, this is right.

Compared to a lot of the newer cars out there 200hp isn't all that much, but it works for me and my skill level.

All my track friends are comfortable with the lower power levels, but all the stance and drift guys will never let my "rwd prius" live without making fun of it.

I'd argue the WRX and Evo could get you home safely too and would probably be more fun. I would also say the WRX is a better daily driver as well (just not as fuel efficient). But the additional space makes up for it IMO.

I don't get asked these questions because I don't encounter a whole lot of "car people", but since you asked.

The base WRX is 30% more than the base GT86 (Evo might be around the same as the WRX, I can't be bothered checking), and I got the base 86 because the more expensive model didn't have anything I wanted. It was basically heavier, for more money.

IMO the WRX is damn ugly, seems to be getting more so every year. Ditto for the Evo. Too many electronics too, I wanted a "driver's car".

I dislike turbos too, I think of it as cheating, The engineering effort that went into the engine appealed to me. Although I hear the new WRX has a turboed FA20?

And the Cayman isn't even an option in Australia, way too expensive.

For me: Don't need space. Do need mileage. Do need reduced upkeep/repair costs (chew through warranty in about 1.5 years)
FRS $30K, WRX $44K, Evo $42K (Canadian prices)

The human ability to control speed is the same today as it was in the 90s. So that point falls flat on the floor.

LOL.

I specifically bought the car to use on the street and track while still having enough backseat to transport my kids.

True, but let's compare some basics (efficiency and technological improvements aside):

S13 vs S15 SR: higher boost, better turbo, larger injectors, different factory ECU tune. Same internals for all practical purposes
S15 SR (Autech differences vs turbo): no turbo, smaller injectors, higher compression engine, better NA cams, different factory ECU tune, same internals for all practical purposes aside from compression/cam difference. Better header than the standard RWD S15 SR20DE version.

A closer engine to compare would be the P11 SR20VE, with a factory 10.4:1 compression ratio and making ~187 crank HP. P12 SR20VE had 11:1 compression ratio and makes ~205 crank HP.

The P11 SR20VE that I had in my G20 made almost 190FWHP with stock internals, Fujitsubo header, JWT ECU tune, intake, intake plenum spacer. The FA20 is similar in many respects, simple I/H/E mods + tune can get decent power to the wheels.

-alex

damn.. I agreed with you up until the "turbo is cheating" argument..

If forced induction is cheating, then do you not agree we shouldnt have fuel injection and go back to manual carbs? The carb camp may think that fuel injection is cheating as per your same argument. Do you think our ECUs are cheating because there are no requirement for electronics for a combustion engine to work?

See where I'm goin with it?

No offense but it seems you need to learn a bit more about what you're comparing. The WRX fa20 is the DIT version. yaaaawn. Fixed the racelands issue, but still boring. An EVO is definitely in the STI segment, price and performance wise. I own a bugeye wrx and have owned a hawkeye.. they are simply not the car a lot of people envision them to be. Very tempermental pieces of poop that are great most of the time.... but there is no "most of the time" when it comes to high performance

bro we're not talking about human ability to control speed... we're talking about technology and adaptations of Moore's law in the automotive tech perspective :lol:. Point stands

Ha Ha! I remember reading this almost exact same thing back in the 70s in one of those paper things what were they called...oh ya magazines. It went to great lengths to explain how fuel injection was a fad that would never catch on because it did not give the proper fuel/air mix and everybody's engine was going to burn up from running too rich! Nothing was ever going to touch the carburetor and it was going to live on as the only way to get true power for eternity. So going by that (it is even possible I still have the mag someplace) we should all forget FI and run out and get 4 barrels!
Oh and back then FI stood for Fuel Injection and NA for a carburetor system and this change in meaning still messes with my head every now and then.

Well said, Car always looks great out at cscs as well!

Appreciate it ;)

Nope, the redtop SR20 was the first gen and that's what all the kids wanted then they wanted the blacktop, then they wanted the variable timing yadadyada, always chasing the next thing. You want the SR20 and the S platform with ten years of development to compare to? Ok, lets

Some people think the turbo is cheating. I don't agree, but as a nod to them and to you for bringing it up, we will look at a Spec S S15.

200 hp and 158 lbft versus the FRS' 200 hp and 151 lbft. 7lbft may not seem like much, but torque is where it's at and any more is welcome. Source: http://fastestlaps.com/cars/nissan_s...-s_autech.html

That torque certainly helps the Silvia deliver the 5.7 second 0-60 time that easily eclipses the FRS' 6.4. 0.7 seconds may not seem like a lot, but that should be more than enough for the FRS driver to be able to describe the Silvia's ass in vivid detail.

Ah, but the Silvia is 2640 lbs to the FRS' 2806. That, gentlemen, is called math. More torque in a lighter car? You know where to place your bet.

I had an S13 Q Silvia (Q denotes non turbo) and mine wasn't even the SR20, it was the CA18, the 1.8. I stripped it down as much as possible. No AC, no power steering, no interior. Just twp seats and a dash. I used to cut myself on the exposed steel inner doors. That car was loud. That car was hot and cold (Katy Perry rode in it, coincidence?) but it was FUN! On a roll I could harass most cars with it and many I could run with. Math strikes again. I know a nonturbo Silvia is is fun and I know the S15 would be a tough competitor to the FRS. You should run, don't walk, to your local Nissan dealer and buy one. Oh yeah, that's right....:( Get it now? :slap:

When I drove the BRZ I immediately felt that same "adequate" power with that same sort of Chihuahua fearlessness that made the numbers seem bigger and the smile creep across my face like that old Silvia did. Importantly, however, the interior was plush and not likely to burn me, cut me or slice me. I had a six speaker stereo and dual zone AC and all the creature comforts of a nice mid-priced car, but this little thing was itching to get in trouble. All the positives with none of the negatives. The decision for me was easy. It's like Subaru and Toyota was reading my mind.

I think the frustrated people are absolutely right, though, when they say the engine has little power, when they say it's "slow." Comparatively, yes, it does and yes it is, but it seems that the power figure fit the designer's target. If you want a little bit more, the car can deliver that with some extra goodies thrown on; you are still in the envelope. If the power is a serious deal breaker for you, you are looking for a different car. There's nothing wrong with what you want and there's nothing wrong with the car, the two just don't match.

Jay gets it. The word is "fun."

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUIo_UMcrVE"]2013 Scion FR-S - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube[/ame]

To clarify, cheating in the respect that it seems like a lot of manufacturers don't try and get the most out of a N/A engine, they seem to say "don't worry about engineering the engine to the best of our ability, let's just whack a turbo/supercharger on it".

I see this all the time when reading reviews of cars. For example, a while ago I was reading two reviews next to each other in the paper, the Jaguar XJR with a 5.0 litre V8 SC engine and the Porsche 918 with a 4.6 litre N/A. Yes I know there is quite a price difference there, but the supercharged Jag is 92.8 hp/litre and the N/A Porsche is 132 hp/litre.

Every engine produced today should be getting at least 80 hp/litre N/A before going FI.

This car would be so much better with FI and a longer 6th gear OD for daily use. It should see 70 mph @2700 rpm and have more guts in traffic.

The problem is with the dip in torque in the mid range. But with a full exhaust and tune, it should be gone. When I get one, that will be one of the first things I'll address.

Fuck the haters.

What changed was time. It's hardly fair to compare those old engines with new. In their time, those engines were very good. Now...just average.

Yeah, they aren't relevent anymore.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eZB-6oVVZk"]World's quickest Nissan SR20 Silvia (H-pattern gearbox) - YouTube[/ame]

I drove my friends WRX the other day, it felt like a truck. I agree with everything the OP said, this is the perfect commuter / weekend racer.