all motor any chance?
 

Seeing so much development in forced induction section. Any know where the all motor tunning going or see/hear about anything?
Im a big fan for sub 2.0L high end all motors in a light weight cars. We all have seen +200hp 4age, and some crazy +300hp all motor 3sge beams engine. But why nothing yet for the fa20???? Yes I know its not cost effictive as going turbocharged but I know some want to take this route too :)

Sorry if this was discussed before but I just hope someone know something or news?

Perhaps nobody has wanted to throw money at a project like this yet, or there's no reason for high investment in this field yet?

Because it's hard and expensive.

Well let's see, there are cams now, and strokers and different pistons; not to mention exhaust setups out the wazoo...what more do you want? I don't recall seeing different heads or bored out cylinders yet though.

I'd love to see a real all motor build. 10k redline with a snarl. Basically the FR-S I have on Forza. :)


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I've wanted to do this too. Really not cost effective. But it would be so fun to have like 260whp all motor. Raise the FD to 4.56 or 4.88. Try to shed a 100 or 200 lbs. car would be beast.

That amount of weight loss is a cakewalk. 25 lbs for spare, 25 pounds for stock muffler, 23 pounds for seat delete, 26 pounds for battery, 4 pounds for crank pulley, 10 pounds for flywheel, 12 pounds for driveshaft, 10 pounds for a header, 10 pounds for overpipe and frontpipe. Starts to get more complicated from there though. 25 pounds for front brakes, maybe 40 pounds for wheels...$$$. @Anthony has done all the legwork already though.

Element Tuning is over 9000rpm on their turbo motor so it's certainly doable.

Element Tuning is also selling a 9000 RPM 13.5 CR built NA race motor. They don't make any power claims on it though

Guess that doesn't sound too terrible. Hmm wonder how much power you could get out of NA. What else would you have to do? Exhaust, intake maybe ITB? Rework the heads? Increase valve springs? Tuning. Forged internals. Can't forget those. Haha

switch to different air sensors since they read maf and map and ITBs have neither unless you run a box over them which kinda defeats the point of them being individual

I really wouldn't compare Toyota to Subaru when it engines. Subaru may be a cool brand, but ive never seen a Subaru engine that is worth a second glance. My FA20 should make 250-270hp NA, but thats pretty much as far as im going to push the motor for what im building it for.

This is exactly my plan. I don't know about the 260whp, but definitely as much as possible.

And still going! Should be sub 2,400lbs very soon.

Awesome! Gotta follow your build. Haha

The bang for the buck factor is terrible. Why do all that for so little return on your investment? Except for some sort of spec race series or just to prove some sort of point, it doesn't make sense when you can strap a turbo or supercharger on it and easily eclipse the power of a fully built NA engine costing twice as much.

Yeah I know what you mean. Probably just gonna go FI in this car and get some other car to run NA. Would be better off having a NA v8 than a NA 4 banger. Haha

There are people who dont want SC/turbo in their car and they appreciate NA rewing high. It is not all about power or power/price. Sometimes, you want something what is not reasonable but it is still the best option for you.

I'm one of the guys that loves NA and not so much FI. Just something about it. With turbos and all that being more efficient, and racing series going mostly to small turbo engines, I guess I'm in a dying segment. Nothing to me sounds better then an NA engine just wailling, even if it gets passed by a turboed car :).

You are talking to one. I want an S2000 and there would be no boost devices brought anywhere near it.

My favorite car of the 40 or so that I have owned was a CA18DE Silvia stripped to a shell inside that would melt your sneakers and make you deaf. I built a new induction system to bring in cold air through a hacked corner light, turbo injectors trimmed by an SAFC, a heavily wrapped HKS 4-2-1 header and a Toda lightweight flywheel feeding through a shortstroke shifted transmission to a turbo car viscous LSD and big wheels and tires. It wound up like a sport bike, always caught people by surprise and beat a few cars it wasn't supposed to.

That being said, I never opened that engine. I didn't cross that barrier into sinking serious money into a NFG NA build. When doing that one must be brutally honest about their funds, their skills or the skills of those they rely on for the work and their expectations. If you are ok with spending much, much more for less result, but getting that NA simplicity and scream, go for it! I'd be the first to say how awesome it looks sounds and feels.

I've been through this conversation a ton with old school and new school guys alike. Even the old school guys are getting it now.

Turbos = displacement on demand and can allow a car to be "full retard" while being completely normal to drive.

A full NA build requires race gas all the time, doesn't want to idle, and has a terrible power band. It's also many times more $/hp than going FI.

No one's going to disagree. For me the problem with FI on this platform is you seriously throw off the balance. You're putting 50 or 100 lbs way out on the front of a vehicle that's already nose heavy as soon as you've done any basic weight reduction.

But then again, I already did the supercharged V8 muscle car laying down 500 whp while weighing 3900 lbs...this car isn't for that. If I keep it long-term I suspect it'll end up looking a lot like Anthony's car. But I haven't kept a vehicle long-term in a long time.

If I add turbo to my stock engine, will I be able to rev to 9000rpm on daily basis?

Element Tuning - Call them.

I have interesting offer from MAPerformace for fully built engine which is cheaper than Cosworth stage 2 (I know that is really expensive), but I have to include ridiculous shipping costs to EU and local fees and taxes.
So until I am that commited or want to spend that much money on it, I will wait for Cosworth stage 3 (forged internals already showed on their FB) and hope that it will be more reasonable.
If I want it so desperatelly, I would send my car to UK, but I am quite happy with my car now and I have a long list of things to improve before upgrading engine internals, so I will wait for stage 3 kit (and price).

You make it sound like having a car is a purely rational endeavor. :)

9000 rpm will require lighter pistons and rods, stronger valve springs, head work to keep making power, and significant oiling upgrades

I was thinking more about that turbo doesnt help me to get to 9000rpm, it only helps me to get there quicker, but I need those internals anyway. So in that case you cant pull price/power argument because there is no substitute for forged internals.

Oh, lord, not the revability crap. :sigh:

If you are boosting you don't have to rev it. You are delivering the volume of air you need to make the power you want without having to increase the engine speed.

You only have to rev a motor as a necessity when you can't make power down in a reasonable RPM range. The higher you rev the more stress you place on the rotating assembly which hurts reliability. It's not a goal, it's a requirement.

Sure, it sound great, but please stop treating it like it's a good thing. MY CA18DET lived a while with a T04E on it and made power everywhere. My CA18DE made power, well, nowhere, and the only way to get anything done I had to keep it over 7K. When I tore down the turbo motor it looked fine, just a clean up bore and rings. When I tore down the NA motor the bearings were wiped badly from stretched rod bolts. Revs do damage.

Please tell me more :popcorn:

Simple version:

It's all about the volume of air being combusted per unit of time. If your engine is working at 9000 revolutions per second, it's effectively doing 1 (more or less) pump of air 9000 times a second. Any forced induction will compress the air before the engine pump can compress it more. It's like having 2 air pumps as opposed to just one. So the engine doesn't have to work as hard.

this this this this this this this this

My block is done,
Just ordered my 13:1 pistons
I have my crank.
Total displacement with be 2.3ltrs

https://www.facebook.com/BlueMisairuBRZ

Why does this matter when you're making double the power an NA car would at that RPM range at a far lower RPM?

True, but when you get spanked by someone that spent far far less than you it's gonna suck...

You can make more power with FI on a stock motor than you'll make on a fully built NA motor, so your argument is without merit.

I don't get spanked by anyone because I'm not competing against anyone.

IMO I think a harcore NA build would stand out alot more than FI. The FI gains will obviously be better hp/dollar, but wouldn't the N/A build have less reliability issues if done right?

Anyone sinking this kind of coin into the car is going to be competing in some way. Don't kid yourself...

No, because boost isn't constant. High compression NA motors are always stressed. Not to mention high RPM's...

no.

refer to earlier posts about the NECESSITY for high-HP N/A cars having to run race fuel, shit idle, etc. 24/7 just to maintain that stuff.

Reliability is subject to build quality more than anything else

But don't the big turbo guys go through the same issues plus more moving parts?

It's much more complex than just summing together all the components in a system.

High HP N/A motors have no 'vaccum/non-boost' threshold, and can only approach their frontier and enact a set force at any given load/rpm.

Turbo motors have the ability to effectively remain N/A in negative boost situations. Turbos are load based, thus one can stay out of boost and elect to not have their motor go through the stresses that a high HP N/A car cannot.

There's much more to running high HP, low displacement N/A than meets the eye. The outlay of costs to get significant gains pretty much entail that all else equal, the turbo guy can even blow his motor up and replace it before reaching the same amount of money spent.

This is all YMMV but the concepts hold to any application

No, because they can run low boost on pump gas can high boost for race gas.

It really is having your cake and eating it too.

Nice I learned something today!