Why doesnt Toyota make its own motor for the FT-86??
 

So here a decent topic for discussion...like the topic says why wont/doesn't Toyotta use thier own motor. And what type of motor do you want to see...FI, NA, high revver, etc.
Personally i would love to see a na high rpm motor redline at least 8000rpm with both torque and hp atleast 200.

Disscuss!!

8000-9000rpm 2.5 turbo 250hp 250 tq

Other than a rotary engine you really can't beat a boxer for low center of gravity. It's a good engine for this type of sportscar application as the handling will probably be very good thanks to the positioning of the boxer being low and as close to the center of the car as possible. Why use a traditional I-4 that wouldn't be as good?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_ZZ_engine

2ZZ-GE, or they could've come out with a next gen version of the same block. I fell in love with that motor while test driving a Corolla XRS a few years back, felt it would be PERFECT for any new revival AE86 type car (fell in love with the motor mind you, not the car). It makes a perfect platform of the FT-86.

I would call it the 2ZZ-GSE (S indicating D4-S injection).

Its the perfect 4A-GE successor. The 4A-GE was also co-created by Toyota and Yamaha (yamaha designing the free-flow GE head), it has a high ass redline, can run consistently in mid-high revs without hurting the engine, I mean....It IS the new 4a-ge. Why Toyota didn't feel like doing a little work to convert the layout for RWD is beyond me. That motor is PERFECT PERFECT PERFECT for the FT86.

I should also be noted that there were supercharged versions that put out both 225hp and 240hp respectively, add in the D4-S version and you'd probably see SC versions reaching almost 260hp (roughhhhh estimate).

The boxer engine is amazing. Low centre of gravity, compact, stout, and once you take off the restrictive stock piping and replace it with aftermarket ones, it sounds like nothing else in the automotive world. Pure bad-ass.

A small displacement, high revving engine can't possibly have same output for torque and HP without the addition of boost. You only have to look at many different Hondas, Toyotas, and even the Mazda rotary for proof of this.

If you want 200 hp from a NA 2.0L, expect it to rev high, like 8000. Also expect the torque to be around 140-150.

I've never owned a boxer powered engine before, but if it follows the same rules as other motors, that wouldn't be quite as much of a HP gain as you think, in NA form.
You're probably basing that off of what you did to your WRX turbo motor, and yes, turbo motors from the factory are notorious for getting extremely restrictive exhausts. So replacing those can typically add to a great, cheap way to add 20+ HP. NA motors don't get near as much power gains from replacing small bits like those, but what you do get is a better powerflow, typically in the mid-range, but it really depends on what kind of exhaust you're putting on.

Torque estimate is pretty much correct, which wouldn't bother me in the least. I'd much rather have a car that performs in the high revs than something that likes to take off from a dead stop and then feel 'lethargic' in the higher Revs.

I'm hoping the boxer will rev to 8,000RPM. I think it has to in order to be 2.0L. I would have loved for Toyota to use their own engine maybe a 2.0 2ZZ or a new S engine but that is just the purist in me.

Heh, should read my post like 3 posts up. I was touting on about how perfect the 2ZZ-GE would've been for this car.

Yeah. I never understood why Toyota never put it in the MR-S. Too bad they discontunued it. Now they have the R engines. I still think people would have been upset especially with the torque numbers the 2ZZ puts out. Maybe Yamaha could have been involved in developing the engine for the FT? I've never owned a boxer engined car but I'm looking forward to it.

1. To keep costs down.

2. New? High Revving? Specific power output? You just described the 2ZZ-GE, which is a nice, but somewhat brittle and gutless motor. The stock pistons' ringlands will break as low as 250 whp and no one can seem to get over 200 whp n/a.

Unfortunately, no one knew any of that until we started breaking them/disapointing ourselves with experimental projects.

At least the limits of the EJ20 are better known...

I like my 2ZZ, but it's a high strung weak motor... trust me, there's a reason why Toyota abandoned VVTLi in favor of Dual VVTi.

A high revving engine with absolutely no grunt sucks donkey balls anywhere but a road course. For any kind of daily driving, I prefer it to not be a dangerous mission merging into traffic...

bah, not like Toyota couldn't have done some more engineering to perfect the platform. Thats why I said 'next generation' in my post. The only reason I said same block was to keep the 2ZZ designation, but that doesn't mean they couldn't have reworked the internals with better material.

You say high-strung...which I translate as 'it struggles in the high RPMs', sounds like a crank/ connecting rod issue.

All I remember when I test drove that XRS is that the engine sounded exciting, revv'd extremely high, and was actually very powerful for what it was (Corolla XRS's, hell just today's Corolla's, aren't really Corolla's imo. Fucking HEAVY).

Careful there buddy. I'll not let any one take pot-shots at the 4A-GE and do nothing about it. The 4A-GE may not have much low-end grunt to it, but its a damn fine and fun engine to drive, ANYWHERE, not just a road course.

Infact my only complaint about DDing a 4A is the fact that on the interstate, with my exhaust, anything above 70 MPH is just flat out annoying, since I'm sitting at ~4500 RPM. Thats not even an engine issue, its the 80's gearing!

I think you misunderstood me. I said it sounds badass, I mentioned nothing of performance. And just in case you were wondering, that characteristic sound is due to the boxer design requiring an unequal length header and thus producing asynchronous exhaust pulsations. Download some YouTube clips of some imprezas with aftermarket downpipes/exhausts and you'll hear what I mean.

You are right, though. Power gains are always much better on factory boosted cars compared to their na counterparts.

haha, you're right, I did misread.

My friend has an STi with a damn good exhaust on it, and it does sound very badass.

I still prefer the screaming of my 4A-GE at 7000RPM over that though.

It's so hard to decide which one has good exhaust notes.
Low end Boxer Engine sound so good... but at the same time 4a-GE's high Rev track run sound so good too... Rotary engine make good sound in high Rev, while VQ engine's low exhaust note is sexy too... Damn it, all the JDM engine make good sounds

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WpgM1...rom=PL&index=9

No one can convince me otherwise, that the 4A doesn't just sound like pure sex.

In the second touge showdown, Spirit's retuned their MRS (with a 2ZZ I believe) and in that video you can hear the engine much better, hence why I would desperately love to see a re-designed ZZ engine in the FT86. Those engines sound amazing as well.

I used to own a 350Z, and as great as the VQ is, it only sounds good from the outside. It sounds ugly, like a coffee grinder, from the inside. I want the car I'm driving to sound good from the inside :)

Money.

Toyota fully capitalising on their investment in FHI.

I can foresee my FT86 lasting less than a year before I relocate the boxer garbage to the scrap pile where it belongs, and replacing it with something more appropriate. I have a number of options but I guess I'll have to wait until I see some chassis dimensions before I can see what will fit. :)

IIRC didn't the Spirit MRS came back again and beat Tsuchiya-san's AE86? At the same time that MRS got stolen too. lol Also the person who set up that MR-S has his own shop.

But back to the exhaust sound, I think it's up to personal. Some love 4A engine, some love EJ, some love B13, some love VQ and me, I just love all the good tuned JDM engines. :)

I have nothing against the Toyota engines and really no experience with them to say how they stack up against Subie's, but the boxer most definitely is not junk.

Yes, FHI Boxer engine is so crappy that Subaru 2.5-liter Turbo Boxer Engine won 'best engine' in the 2.0-2.5 litre category in both the 2006 and 2008 International Engine of the Year awards.:bellyroll:

that tsuchiya video is alot of fun to watch

Coupled with an AWD configuration and appropriate chassis, it does its job quite well. However compared to any number of dedicated FR drivelines I think it will fall short.
You have to remember the way the FT will be driven... Flat stick, pegged to redline and very abrupt shifts... The boxer does not like these things. The boxer prefers a more linear throttle application... Which is why it works so well in a 'forgiving' AWD configuration.

Shifting idiosyncracies are a result of the tranny, not the engine. We already know his car is not going to use the wrx's glass 5 speed (thank god), so that's not an issue. And your concerns about revving high need to be kept in check until we know the engine internal. Remember, the jdm sti likes to rev high, and if this car is to make 200 ponies (albeit unconfirmed), it too will be built with tolerances to rev high.

Oh, and an AWD drivetrain is LESS forgiving than a 2WD one, not more.

5 cylinder i5 in the realm of 2.5 - 3L, now that has an interesting engine sound; the wrx's sound like trucks to me, pretty badass but totally surprising at the same time

I think its difficult to judge what a Subaru flat 4 likes and doesn't like and is not good for a RWD configuration especially when no one has driven a production Subaru flat 4 that was developed specifically for a RWD platform. The way a Subaru flat 4 "feels" in a WRX for example has just as much to do with the AWD drivetrain as it does the engine. With the hype this car is generating, I highly doubt Toyota/Subaru is just going to plug in an engine that they have not extensively tested and made sure the overall feel and balance of the car is not right.

haha i recall you posting in club4ag that boxer "pancake motors have fartlike exhaust sounds." :D

i don't mean to offend any subie fans by posting that, i do realize that the ej is a very capable motor and it's advantages in this layout are well documented. but really, with all the development work that went into adding D-4S to the ej, you would think they could've done the same with the zz engine. i guess acquiring a stake in FHI and the short length/low center of gravity advantages were just too tempting?

I think they sound like cruiser bikes, myself:party0030:

I think this last comment is a good point. That sounds likely.

One negative about the boxer I will bring up that you guys won't like is that due to its layout, it's a bitch to work on.

I'm new so for starter I want to share my theory why toyota will use a flat 4 instead of making a new inline 4 or use in house or what they already have like the 2zzge or 3sge, first the 2zzge is now outdated maybe 2 or 3 years now the corolla XRS and matrix XRS will have a new or maybe hybride engine. 3sge is now discontinued. One thing made the original AE86 great was the price from its time that was reasonable, now its will be costly if they start from a blank sheet of paper this will drive the price up total cost of the whole car. by using the fuji heavy industry's engine and factory this will make the cost lower (thats what we all want right).

Put an equal length header on a Subaru WRX/STI and it sounds like a Honda...okay not exactly but no more "Subaru" rumble. And yes they are a bitch to work on. Changing spark plugs is a test of patience.

Very true. Although they make more power with equal length headers, I'll take the rumbling sound produced by the unequal length rumble over a few extra ponies ANY day (and the power diff will really be small if the car isn't boosted)

This is true to some extent, but Tada (chief engineer of the project) already stated that the engine in this car was built from scratch, and is an engine being designed solely for this car. So don't think the cost factor holds any water anymore.

The only thing that makes sense is the lower center of gravity and its ability to sit further back in the engine bay, which also keeps the length of the car down (and thus weight).

@Cyde, I don't recall saying that. There's a more veteran member on club4ag with the name oldskewltoy, I think that might've been who you're thinking of.

I dont like the way the wrx/STI motors sound with aftermarket exhaust. its sounds more like they sputter. VQ and the F20 motors are just pure sex

you're not the same person?

Haha, no. I didn't know someone else had a similar name when I joined C4ag 6 years ago. Probably would've made something different.

My handle on Club4 is OIdskooltoys.

It was originally OldSkoolToys (just like this one) but something went wrong with the registration, so I had to redo it with an I.

F20 motors do indeed sound like pure sex. To me its the 2 liter big brother of the 4A.

A question...anyone familiar with initial d i remember the motor they put in after tak blew the original. anyone know if that motor is a real thing, if it is what motor was that thing.....sorry for the cartoon reference but i was born in the 80s and never got into cars till the mid 90s

yes!!!! i love my F22!!!!

Don't apologize to anyone for liking Initial D. Most people who bash the show are either just completely anti-anime or blame Initial D for ruining the AE86 or whatever (when its really just them hating a younger crowd getting into the car, because of an anime). The anime was created by a long-time drift/AE86 named Shuichi Shigeno, and was supervised by Tsuchiya himself. Even if you don't like anime, the show itself is rooted deeply by AE86 and drift fans.

ANYYYWHO, it was a 20valve variant (err, silvertop I guess) 4A-GE used in the Group A race cars in Japan. Don't even think about trying to get that engine. The fact that Takumi had it in his car is extremely laughable to begin with.