Twins are slow? Not as slow as these cars!
 

Thanks to Monogram for the link to FastestLaps.com. I enjoyed comparing the FR-S/BRZ times at "Streets of Willow" to other "fast" cars. The twins bested the times for several well-known sports machines. Shocking in some cases:

Subaru BRZ 1.30.32

Chevrolet Corvette Z06 1.30.35

BMW M5 1.30.40

Porsche 911 Turbo 1.30.69

Mini-Cooper S 1.30.93

Scion FR-S 1.31.15

Ford GT :confused0068: 1.31.57 (This one shocked me the most.)

Tesla Roadster Sport 1.32.10

Acura NSX 1.32.59

Pontiac Solstice 1.35.69

Mazda MX-5 (Miata) 1.35.91

The whole list is here:

<http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/willow_springs_-_streets_of_willow.html>

I guess "fast" depends on whether the road is straight or curved, eh? I suspect that the difference in the BRZ and the FR-S times were due to track conditions/weather on the day the time trial was run.

much more intelligent comments below

As a person who's actually driven at Streets, I can assure you that the times are completely inaccurate for the faster cars.

-alex

"I totally smoked a Ford GT the other day..."

No, the times on fastestlaps hammers in the fact that the number one mod by far (even over tires) is driver.

Look at who drove that 1:30 time, randy pobst, a pro driver. If you only look at pro driver times, the twins sit about where you would expect by hp and hp/weight


41. Subaru WRX 1:27.33 '14 272 / 1503 Randy Pobst
47. Ford Mustang EcoBoost 1:27.85 '15 0 / 0 Randy Pobst
50. Ford Focus ST 1:28.40 '12 250 / 1432 Randy Pobst
52. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 3.8 V6 GDI 1:28.71 '12 350 / 1580 Randy Pobst
56. Ford Mustang V6 1:29.09 '11 309 / 1571 Randy Pobst
57. Hyundai Genesis Coupe 2.0 TCI 1:29.12 '12 275 / 1550 Randy Pobst
63. Mazda 3 MPS 1:29.51 '09 260 / 1456 Randy Pobst
65. Subaru BRZ 1:30.32 '12 200 / 1220 Randy Pobst
72. Scion FR-S 1:31.15 '13 200 / 1251 Randy Pobst
74. VW Golf GTI Mk. VI 1:31.47 '09 211 / 1318 Randy Pobst
80. VW Jetta GLI 1:32.53 '11 200 / 1436 Randy Pobst

The original FR-S was balanced more for fun than for track times. It had more of a oversteer bias. I think these fr-s and brz times was on the same day. That might be part of the reason why the fr-s modified its suspension to bring it in line with the brz.

A lot of the times on fastest laps are some random amateur driver because that's the only person who has bothered to time their lap, or some random magazine reviewer.

The second most important issue on fastestlaps that is ignored is tires. That's why basically lap times get better every year. And no matter what people here say, the primacy HP gets pretty decent laps time, comprable to the twins swapped to other UHP tires.

If you look further, when there are multiple times for a car, the pro drivers can beat amateur drivers by like 5 seconds.

4. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:20.43 '11 512 / 1394 Randy Pobst
17. Chevrolet Corvette Z06 Z07 Package 1:24.28 '11 512 / 1394

12. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:23.48 '10 558 / 1712 Randy Pobst
40. Ford Mustang Shelby GT500 1:27.30 '13 659 / 1750 EdMunds InsideLine

VIR:
9. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 2:52.38 141 '12 588 / 1838 Aaron Link
19. Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 2:57.50 137 '12 588 / 1838 C&D

Big willow:
27. Acura TL Type S 1:36.67 '07 290 / 1666 Keiichi Tsuchiya
29. Shelby GT500 1:36.80 '06 507 / 1807
56. Shelby GT500 Super Snake 1:40.50 '10 760 / 1790

I am just absolutely floored that the Solstice is even on that list!
Mind you I would really to see the results if the same guy drove them all.
Also to put it in better perspective the BRZ is at 65 and the FRS at 72 (same driver so WTF?)
The Focus ST kicked our butt at #50 and even the much maligned Genesis coupe beat us at #52.


Shit if I had waited 2 more minutes to post Totopo would have addressed my concerns about the differences.

Thanks a lot for your insight. It was very helpful. :thumbsup:

Benchracing at its finest.

Instead of bragging about lap speeds, how about people actually drive the car?

Benchracing and armchair mechanics.

I've seen you repeat this numerous times on this site, but what is your basis for this statement?

The evidence seems overwhelmingly clear that switching even to average MP summer tires makes a notable difference, and to EP summer tires makes a huge difference.

- Sport Auto tested the GT86 at 9:09 s at the Nurburgring on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 8:44 s on Bridgestone RE050A's.

- Sport Auto tested the GT86 at 1:21 s at Hockenheimring short on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 1:19 s on Bridgestone RE050A's.

- RT tested the FR-S at 1:29 s at Spring Mountain on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 1:27 s on D1SS's.

- MT tested the FR-S at 25.8 s on their figure-8 on stock Michelin Primacy HP's, and 25.0 s on ZII's (lateral grip went from 0.93 to 1.01 g).

And so on and so on... If I remember correctly, Edmunds, Consumer Reports and Autoguide did similar tests as well with similar results. Maybe Modified magazine as well. Seems like pretty much everyone has tested this.

Don't care. I have a blast every time I take mine down my favorite bit of road.

Hey, you never know. This info may help me shave a 10th of a second off my 1 1/2 hour commute!

I said compared to other UHP tires. The reason I said that is most of the cars in its class, and most of the ones i posted comes from the factory with OEM UHP tires. So if you want to compare lap times, then the tires in those cars around it driven by pobst are pretty similar. Tire rack swapped the primacy HP's with a UHP tire and basically got the same time. They swapped it to an EP tire and simillary shaved 2 seconds off ~1:30ish

As opposed to say the super cheater viper ACR SRT 10 which came with "OEM" Michelin sport cup tires, which are not streetable.

or that Seat Leon Cupra Nurburgring time with its optional michelin pilot cup 2

I feel like the whole Nurburgring lap time chases has made high end cars come out with ridiculous OEM tires. I'm just waiting for the first manufacturer to claim that Hoosier R7's are the "OEM" tire and that a reasonable EP tire is an "option."

2 seconds to MP on a 1:30 lap is pretty reasonable from a UHP tire. 2 seconds off 1:30 on EP is kind of... Even though the primacy's are rated as a GT summer, they don't do too poorly on the FR-s.

:bonk:

Because it's arguable whether or not spending >$800 on rubber is actually worth two seconds/lap around a racetrack to the average enthusiast. Let alone if they are even capable of extracting the full 2 seconds given they are likely several seconds off the maximum pace of the Michelin Primacy's.

If you are actually competing, legitimately trying to find tenths of a second in your lap time then yes, absolutely the tires must be upgraded, for the guy going to his first track day: run the piss out of the Primacy's first, you'll learn so much more. AND if you already have a decent amount of car control and even armchair quarterback racecraft coming in odds are you'll pass some of those middle aged guys with their first Porsche or Corvette as they take the pedal to the floor for the first time (hell some don't even do it after a whole day of instruction).

No argument that any true performance tire is an upgrade, just that for the amount of shit piled onto the Michelins as everybody and their grandmother kept repeating 'prius tyres lol' they are a decent starting tire.

Two points you may have overlooked:

- RE050A's are comparable to summer tires that cars in its class are fitted with.

- 2 seconds a lap on a 1-1.5 min lap is a huge difference.

That's not really what we're debating though. He said upgrading tires doesn't really make a difference. It definitely makes a difference, and that's been shown whether switching to MP or EP tires. Whether that difference matters to a track novice doing intro HPDEs or can be exploited by them is a tangential point.

I agree with you though, for the average guy daily driving or for a track novice just starting out, there's no need to worry about laptimes.

Ha HA Ha
You guys keep debating about tires and some new guy shows up with a 1000 word thesis on "contact patch" we will know Ubersurber is back in disguise! He would not be able to resist a good tire debate.

am I too late for the discussion about rubbers?

Well we can certainly keep going.
I prefer the multicoloured ones myself

I had the pleasure of watching Randy Pobst back in the day when he was AutoXing a Datsun S2000 (maybe it was a S1600??). He was wicked fast then and seems to still be today. It's good to see a Florida boy do well.

Every week there is a thread made where people try to convince themselves that these cars aren't slow.

They aren't slow. They just aren't fast!

...and knowledge of the track. How many times has Pobst ran that particular track? 100's potentially 1000's of times. That by itself will carve seconds if not dozens of seconds off the time of any car.

Haha I had forgotten all about that guy until you brought that up. Wonder if he still lurks here.

There is no question in my mind that the weak link in the handling is the stock tire. I don't expect to get too many people to disagree with that point on this forum. The rear tires seem to break loose all the time in sharp cornering with throttle applied.

I will wait, however, until the stock tires wear out. Still, have you noticed that the Primacy tire ($182 each "on special" at Tire Rack) costs more than the Pilot Super Sport ($135 each, regular price at Tire Rack)? Why on earth would you pay more for a less grippy replacement tire? Certainly, I plan to upgrade then. Others may want to replace their tires now and the cost may not matter to them.

Every third comment on upgrades and going faster is saying to dump the stock tire ASAP, as mentioned above it isn't that bad. Very straightforward statement/opinion.

In theory, the Primacy HP tires have a lower tread wear rating than the Pilot Super Sports, reading the description the Primacy's are a lot more specialized and targeted as OEM for entry level luxury cars (Audi's and Merc's) whereas the PSS are targeted at budget enthusiasts looking for an accessible all around tire that they can AutoX on and then commute to work on Monday with. Not everything automotive is priced by how fast it goes, there's a lot of development in those low rolling resistance tires.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....ot+Super+Sport

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....del=Primacy+HP

I'm going to disagree with you on the weak link comment, because the weak link in the handling is most certainly not the tires, it's the differential.

Just because you can break loose tires in the corners with throttle doesn't make it a bad tire, it just means your driving style is too aggressive for the tires given the steering and throttle inputs you are making.

Sorry, these "weak-link" tires run 5 seconds faster than my modified, "better tire" car at Streets of Willow. Primacy HPs are great tires.

-alex

ITT: Twin owners continue to try and convince themselves that their motor isn't underwhelming :D

[quote=mav1178;2052362]Not a problem! I enjoy a spirited debate. With that in mind, check out this article from Road and Track concerning times with the Primacy vs. the Dunlop Direzza. It is clear that in every respect (in this trial) the Dunlop did better than the Primacy:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ransformation/

It's not a question of power, it's a question of balance. I am certain that a Ford GT, driven by nearly anyone, would beat the pants off most sports cars on an oval track or the Big Willow. At the very least, the time for the Streets of Willow is not that different from the FR-S or BRZ. Certainly within the margin of error. But these are supposedly fastest times at that track for each car.

I have enough sense not to go drag racing in the FR-S. I have beaten the pants off a Z4 on a windy canyon road, though, although again you could of course blame the driver of the Z4.

The problem with the times you posted is you have professional race car driver Randy Pobst in the Twins, and <unknown> driver in the Ford GT. I'm pretty sure if Pobst was driving the Ford GT, it would have obliterated the times set by the Twins, even on SOW.

On the track, I've also passed a Z4 coupe (and C6Z, M3, ZL1 Camaro, Maserati, and countless other cars I shouldn't have passed), but I can guarantee you the reason was the driver:

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/...9ce492a8_z.jpg

Here's another group of times, these from Top Gear, most with the Stig, but a few with Vettel and Hamilton. The GT 86 is number 153 on the list:

http://fastestlaps.com/tracks/top_gear_track.html

Some cars that were slower than the GT 86 on this track:

Nissan 350Z
Mazda RX-8
BMW M5
BMW M3
Lotus Esprit
Audi TT 3.2 Quattro
Mercedes SLK 350
Jaguar XKR
Lotus Elise
Porsche 986 Boxster
BMW Z4 3.0i
Honda S2000
Maserati Coupe Cambiocorsa
Alfa Romeo 8C Competizione
Porsche 944
Porsche 928
Aston Martin DB5
Mini Cooper (dead last on this list) - Richard Hammond

All were driven by the Stig on the same course except as noted above. That removes the variable of the driver completely (except for the Mini Cooper). It should be noted that the Ford GT did considerably better in the hands of the Stig, finishing 45th on the list, well ahead of the GT-86.

[quote=mav1178;2052362]I don't disagree with you on the tires. I think Primacy HPs are great tires too, for all intents and purposes. Do I think they are a track tire, No. They are a good tire though.

I would like some clarification on the differential statement though. I find that the differential does exactly what a Torque biased differential should be doing.

I think the weak link in the twins is the space behind the steering wheel.

The w after the time means wet. And the vw is very wet

[quote=tahdizzle;2052598]Definitely! You've probably heard the IT term "PEBCAK" - "problem exists between chair and keyboard". I guess here the term would be "PEBSAW"? (Problem exists between seat and wheel). :slap:

[quote=babydriver;2052697] Annnnnd an inside joke between the people that actually read all the posts in a thread was just invented!

I can envision a pile of responses of "PEBSAW" in our future.

Thanks for that! So the cars affected from the list above would be the Mercedes SLK and the Lotus Elise, all others were on a dry track.

That website isn't very credible.

OK, fine. Please provide a credible one.