Near Stock v. OFT Stage 2 Dyno
 

Just reporting the results of some dyno testing.

Runs 1 & 2 were with:
- stock tune
- Perrin non-resonated CBE

Runs 4 & 5 were with:
- OFT Stage 2
- JDL catless UEL header
- JDL overpipe
- Magnaflow catted/resonated FP
- Perrin resonated CBE
- K&N drop-in

https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5610/...ec4fda8f_b.jpg

The baseline runs were really promising, making 177 whp with just an exhaust. (I was told stock cars usually dyno around 165 whp on this dyno, so maybe all the track days broke in the engine well.) But the stage 2 runs were disappointing, making only 178 whp.

One thing to note: We literally installed the parts and put it straight on the dyno, so not sure if the ECU needs time to adapt maybe? @Shiv@Openflash

Or the exhaust components need time to break in, not sure. Or perhaps the coolant temps dropped out of optimal. There's a lot of possible explanations, so probably best not to jump to conclusions yet.

The good thing is it sounds amazing. I was worried about how loud it would be, but it's actually pretty tame. Slightly louder than before, but with a muted rumble to the sound. I've been driving around the past few days just listening to the exhaust purr. :D

I'm going to take the car to the track this weekend and properly put it through its paces.

Most definitely needs time to adjust after a flash.

not really likely that all of those mods only added 2 hp

Give the car 100 miles to learn the fuel trims etc, then dyno again.

I just recently got the OFT and def give it some more time to learn. I flashed before starting my 6 hour drive and thought hmm this is nice. Two hours later I was like F*ck Yeah :burnrubber:

177 is the highest ive seen for a stock car. Not believing you only gain 2hps.

And you should get E85 in there, if you have access to it:thumbup:

Have you tried getting a real tune specifically for your mods? You will see much better gains for sure..
Generic tunes are always going to be conservative and not be able to take full advantage of mods, that's just there nature.

Also, take actual numbers (IE the 177rwhp starting point) with a grain of salt, every dyno will read differently and vary day to day. The same car could make 155hp on one dyno and 175hp on a different dyno a week later. The 4000rpm area looks to have seen some gains at least..

To the OP, the ECU definitely needs time to learn.

The actual numbers really don't matter, just the relative change.

Just curious if this was this Brady's dyno at Pure Automotive Performance? If so, I'd definitely agree that the track days can help break the engine in. I dyno'd there at 181whp with stock tune, stock exhuast, and just a K&N drop in filter. Conditions were pretty much ideal that time (cool November air, much like your dyno was, I'd imagine). Dyno'd again earlier this summer when I got a tune under more humid conditions and only got 177whp stock, 185whp tuned (Delicious Tuning, still stock exhaust).

That's disappointing about only getting 2whp out of the tune and exhaust mods. I'm planning on doing similar mods this winter and hoping to get up around 200whp, but we'll have to see. Hopefully giving the car a chance to learn it will pick up some more power.

Also, you said you are taking it to the track this weekend. Are you the other FR-S signed up for Summit Point Main with NASA Mid Atlantic? If so, I'll see you there. I'll be running in Time Trials.

I believe OFT stage 1 alone adds 3-5hp to bone stock cars so I would be disappointed too.

Give the ECU time to adjust?????

Isnt the point of a tune to change your ECU to work with the mods???????????

I'd be freaking pissed and demand a refund if a stage 2 tune gave me 3 whp with that list of mods.
No waiting on a ECU learning period, something is wrong with that tune.

Give the ECU time to adjust?????

Isnt the point of a tune to change your ECU to work with the mods???????????

I'd be freaking pissed and demand a refund if a stage 2 tune gave me 3 whp with that list of mods.
No waiting on a ECU learning period, something is wrong with that tune.

If you're WOT it's closed loop

Sent from my OnePlus One

Lol... So much butt is hurt in this thread its hilarious....

Why would you not contact Shiv before doing anything else? I would have called him from the Dyno. He stands behind what he does and will sort this out, but at least give the guy a chance before you make a public thread bashing his livelihood.... Damn.

Also, the area under the curve looks like you picked up good power to me.

Some good comments on here. One thing I want to caution is not to jump to conclusions too early. The car went straight from lift to dyno and the engine hadn't been run in about 2-3 hrs. Could be a number of explanations, which I'm hoping Shiv or other tuners can shed some light on.

Yeah I was a bit disappointed, was expecting to see 10-15 whp gain at least. It's cool though, just hoping it's a fluke and now trying to figure out what's going on.

Yeah I'll probably re-dyno after my track days this weekend. Not fun having to spend money for another dyno session, but would rather know for certain what's going on. I will say, the butt dyno feels like there were some gains in the top end at least.

Also 177 whp is pretty high for sure, but it was repeatable. Looks like ja1217 was saying he dyno'd at 181. I think these engines gain a decent amount of power after breaking in at the track.

Yeah custom tune will be my next step if I don't see any improvement on the next dyno. I might just have the unlucky combination of engine/parts that doesn't match well with OFT.

Yep will shoot you a PM.

Thanks, that makes me wonder if it had to do with coolant temperature then.

Everytime I've flashed the car it's taken a couple hrs of driving before everything is sorted. I don't think It's am instantaneous change like some think

Yeah the point of this thread wasn't to bash anyone. I actually listed some possible explanations for what was going on if you read my first post. I'm just reporting what happened and seeing if people had any thoughts. I tagged Shiv to see if he knew what was going on.

To be clear, it looks like I lost power from 2700-3700 RPM and from 5000-6300 RPM. Again, not jumping to conclusions, just stating facts for now.

I'll pay (again) to re-dyno, and will update with results.

Unless your fuel trims are wildly off, dynoing immediately after a flash should give representative. OFT OTS tunes start IAM at 1.

How much time went by between the runs? Same temps?

I haven't flashed with the car hot, but I know after a flash when it's cold you need to give the car time to warm up before the VVT becomes active.

If the car cooled down (or if it needs time to adjust after the flash), it's possible the after dyno was done with the limp VVT tables active, which kills power.

i've never heard of having to wait for a tune to take effect... i'd flash it again and make sure you actually flashed the tune in the car....

Indeed, I assumed anyone would wait for VVT ;). I meant you shouldn't need to put any miles onto the car prior to the dyno.

About 2-3 hrs. Ambient temps were about the same.

I'm sure coolant temps had dropped during that time, but we did 3 runs post-flash. I would think by the 3rd run coolant temps would have stabilized, but who knows.

and how do you expect to learn your fuel map closed loop to then apply them in open loop "dyno situation"?

yes, te ecu need a little time to re-learn...

Open Loop actually.

FWIW, just yesterday I tested a FRS (6AT) with only Grimmspeed intake on the dyno yesterday. Stock tune, it put down 171whp (as expected). With Stage 1 tune, it put down 177whp.

https://www.facebook.com/23343167667...type=1&theater

OP- You should be able to see bigger gains that what you saw when even running the stock tune. One thing I do remember about tuning a JDL header (their EL version) was that it needed a lot of runs (with very little cool down) to get up to temp. And each successive run would make 1-2hp more. I took 4 or 5 runs before it was up to temp and made peak power. This is because their headers are quite heavy (thick gauge material) and have a lot of thermal mass. This is the reason why heavy headers benefit from heat wrap or thermal coating. This is also the reason our own header uses thinner gauge material.

That said, I have never tested their UEL header so for all we know, it may have different mapping needs that other UEL headers that we've tested. Custom tuning would be the next natural step in this situation.

op,

do you have logs of those runs?

Thanks, that makes sense. My header is also thermal coated, so that may affect things.

I'm pretty sure the tune file loaded properly since I haven't seen any CELs for removing the first cat, but to be safe, I'll try re-flashing.

Wasn't logging at the time unfortunately.

By the looks of it (high higher, soft fuel cut), you have a tune file loaded. So I don't think that is the culprit. That header may just require custom tuning. Do you know if you were running a 93oct map or a 91oct map? The 93oct map, on 93oct, will make a few hp more.

That was 93 octane map on 93 octane fuel.

Do you think it's worth trying another dyno (i.e., coolant might have been cold, ECU may need to adjust, etc.) or should I just go straight to custom tuning? The odd part to me are the losses before 3500 RPM. I'm not a tuner, but that makes me think the engine wasn't completely happy for those runs or things hadn't properly broken in yet.

I think the best thing would be to flash the stock file back into the ECU and then dyno on the same dyno. Just make sure the engine is warmed up and that you do a few runs to get the header up to temp. That will give you a good idea of what kind of changes to expect with the new mods. If you still see the same loss of torque below 3500rpm, then it's caused by the new modifications and it's very unlikely that a tune is going to recover that. Where the tune will help primarily is from the midrange dip area and up. Very little can be done to improve low end response as that is most influenced by engine pumping efficiency.

Once you have this data, realistic expectations can be set and you can begin the custom tuning process.

That's how I would do it at least :)

Crap, but you know what I meant ;)

Since the intake wasn't changed I don't see all the fuss about the ECU needing time to learn. When I had my Ecutek tune flashed and dyno tuned there was no ECU re-learning required and subsequent dyno testing showed no further gains attributable to ECU re-learning. IMO the OP's results demonstrate one of the problems with "one-size-fits-all" canned tunes.


My mods were Borla UEL, Tsudo HFC front pipe, K&N drop-in. Base whp un-tuned was 160, canned stage 2 tune made 170 and the final tune produced 177whp.

Loss of power in close loop -> no learning required, no need to be up to temp.
Some stock cars need MAF scaling -> no learning required, no need to be up to temp.
177whp tuned warm vs 178whp tuned cold-> no learning required, no need to be up to temp.
160whp stock vs 177whp stock-> no need to care about different conditions, different engine, who cares if one is surprisingly high and one is surprisingly low.

I think it would be worth logging a couple of wot runs in 3rd 2000-7500 to see what it looks like.

you may have exhaust leak upsetting O2 readings causing high fuel trims or heaps of knock ect that is cause of power loss be interesting to see street log to make sure it all looks ok.

on oft log

afr
commanded afr
wideband afr this is second o2 sensor
knock correction
flkc
iam
ltft
stft
rpm
load

My money is still on doing the pulls before VVT activated, especially with the losses down low.

Does it take a while for AVCS to get cam position registration initially sorted after flashing the ROM and doing a run?

I seem to remember a recommendation to let the car idle for at least 30s, if not more, after re-flashing.

OP and Fast_Freddy: was there any settling in time after reflashing between pulls, or did the pull get run straight away (i.e. was there any time for the cam timing to get settled)?

Could I ask what you mean when you say "no need to be up to temp?" I'm no expert, but I thought I read somewhere that low coolant temps could result in up to 20 hp less on the dyno with these engines.

Thanks for the suggestion, I will see if I can get some 3rd gear logs in a few days.

All of that was sarcasm.

Doh I skimmed over your post and that went completely over my head :bonk:

My guess is that the AFR is pegged rich or your IAM is lower than 1. I would gladly take a look at your logs and let you know if I see any problems. Log KC learned, Adv multiplier, AFR, commanded AFR, Engine speed, Engine Load, and MAF voltage. After making a few small adjustments to my own OFT tune I went from sort of feeling like I had a faster car to not being sure if I need forced induction.