A Car Noobs Hopeful Reality: Forced Induction
 

The purpose of this thread is to help me decide if going FI is a sound move for someone with my limited, mechanical knowledge and budget. This posting does not mark the beginning of my considering such an overwhelming project and I have been reading and reading and reading up on what going FI means for my car, budget and sanity. I like to use the word sanity because I worry about everything and freak out over small knock corrections I observe in my data lag today with only a Stage 2 NA setup. This obsessive need to lose sleep over every little thing here and there is what ultimately allows me to educate myself and find solutions or answers to my concerns. Sadly its how I operate most of my life but it allows me to get things done.

Truthfully, I have very VERY little experience working with cars. To date I have only installed a CAI, Phantom supercharger, oil change, wheels and that's about it. I had my exhaust parts put on not because I don't believe I cant do it but I am limited with my tools. Having said that if I do go FI I promised myself that I absolutely, positively must install it myself. Why? because I need to know how to take it apart, put it back together and troubleshoot problems when the occur. And from my research something almost always goes wrong. Therefore I will borrow or acquire tools for the install. I do not want to be paying a mechanic for every problem with will occur.

In regards to a budget I could see myself spending a total of 4k initially. Over time I expect to burn through more money but I hope not to. This means that I am looking for something really affordable and /or even used. I am not after big power. I had the Phantom and while I had issues with its no partial boost, and numbing feeling created because of the restriction I felt the power was good enough. I am not going to upgrading fuel injectors and I really hope I wont have to get a better clutch.

I understand that a tune is perhaps the most crucial and important aspect of going FI. Having said that I live on the east coast and I am not aware of any competent tuners near me. They all seem to operate in Cali. I use the OFT and love it. Shivs base maps (although very limited for FI applications) inspire confidence for me and their customer service is second to none. If I had to leave for a different platform I would be content simply using a base map that came with whatever FI platform it came with. That is until I can find a tuner who I feel is knowledgeable enough to custom tune my car. I feel a lot of these base maps (AVO base map, Shivs Base maps, Innovative base map) are sufficient enough for stage 1 FI which is all I plan to do. Again I am not after big power.

I am torn between SC and Turbo. I have read that SC's are easier to maintain but would like to believe a proper turbo should suffice.

in a picture perfect world I imagine myself buying a kit, installing it in a day or two, flashing the tune and driving for thousands of miles without any issues. I dont track, i dont beat on my car I simply enjoy spirited driving from time to time.

What issues have you face? what additional components have you had to purchase? Oil cooler? Catch can? clutch? Issues with piping not mating or mis-fitment, disconnecting? Are my expectations unrealistic? should I give up now on the FI dream or keep reading and waiting until the dust settles and something that meets my requirements will surface?

With budget alone, it's not possible. That's straining a S/C setup, turbo options are in the relm of 5k+ for all the reliable goodies. My advice is to wait and figure out how much you need forced induction, and how much you're willing to spend. there are other ways to make your car atleast feel fast.

but why? the SBD turbo kit was pricing for like $3500, the new works is around $3300. their is a used Innovative SC w/ inter cooler for around 4 k on the forums What additional expenses am I overlooking that you did not mention?

I'm confused. Have you installed a supercharger already or not?

Seriously though, if you are this worried about shit going sideways then going FI is probably not for you.

I didn't care much the phantom but its not a real sc so install is not the same. Yes I freak out but that's my nature. I refuse to believe their are not FI setups out there that are resonsible and safe with a good tune.

If you have limited knowledge, be prepared to spend A LOT of money. Set aside the install and tuning, chances are there will be lots of little quirks that pop up. If you don't have the knowledge to diagnose stuff on your own and know what type of stuff to monitor and look out for, you are going to be paying a premium for somebody else to do it.

Even if you have pretty good knowedge and mechanical ability, it will still cost you a good bit. You can get it done for $5k, but I'd recommend actually buying quality parts (IE PTuning, P&L, FBM, ...) to avoid shit going wrong and costing you more later.

You can find examples ranging from shitty tuned cars making 450hp that actually ran for months, to cars throwing a rod in parking lots with supposedly good tunes making 230hp. If you aren't prepared to possibly have your car down and it costing you thousands, don't bother.

"Buy once, cry once." and "You gotta pay to play." are mottos to live by when it comes to modding cars.

You're forgeting dyno time, and all the extra goodies and such (like gauges and catch cans) not to mention oil coolers aren't going to cost $700 total.

Good point. Question. Do I need catch cans and oil coolers with lower power FI? Are base maps that come with these kits not safe enough for the long run? Do I have to get a custom tune sooner than later?

The answer I got from SBD about oil coolers is that all turbo cars from the factory come with one for a reason. As for the base maps my understanding is they're all supposed to be temporary to get you to the tuner.

All the questions you are asking have been answered, in detail, many times before. Honestly, you need to research this.
Base maps are designed for you to be able to drive your car to the tuner or log specific driving patterns for your tuner to send revised maps.

Pro search tip: go to google and type "site:www.ft86club.com" at the end of your search.
i.e. "base map drivability site:www.ft86club.com"

Repeat the process for oil coolers, catch cans, all the different turbo and supercharger kits your interested in, exhaust systems, tuning, how various parts work, etc. And then, when you have specific questions - ask away.

Every other day someone makes a post just like yours saying they don't know what kit to get, and that they want one that is reliable, they want ease of installation, etc, etc, etc. People get tired of spoon feeding the answers to those who don't bother trying to research themselves.

If you're asking for the grand total of FI information to be dumped at your feet, you're on the wrong forum. These are N/A cars that have only been around for three model years, and that kind of knowledge just doesn't exist yet.

If you want to learn about FI, read some books, go to NASIOC, go to cars and coffee and ask around, watch Mighty car mods, something. The internet is amazing but you can't outsource everything.

One last bit:

The car is designed for 200hp. If you're looking for a problem-free, turn-key solution that is fully planned out then you should be looking at a factory turbo'd car or similar. Used Porsche Cayman, 370z, Miata, S2000, etc. Can you get the 86 to that point and better? Certainly. But it's a lot of work, and generally not worth the money if you're paying somebody else to do it.

Half the fun for most of us is working on the car, planning it out, driving it, breaking it, fixing it, etc..

^

My car survived a load of abuse this season boosted (200+ autox runs, 20k miles, 7 track days). With no issue other than blowing out the primary cat in the header.

That said. Im expecting to eventually have to pull the engine after some sort of failure.

I don't have an oil cooler... but I also don't track my car, its my daily. I'm only running 8psi on my AVO. Drove it from Seattle to San Diego in 3 days in 100 degree weather with a detour up to Reno and some altitude, no issue...

Its debatable if oil coolers are "needed" for a DD... from my experience I haven't needed it yet.

I do have a catch can though... probably a good idea to get that though.

You won't be able to do it for $4k unless you possibly install it yourself. Also, your exhaust you have now is limiting your potential power output. S/C might be cheaper though

Trust me I just did this... I didn't have the time (was moving to San Diego in 30 days plus working 12 hrs a day) and didn't have the trust in my skills to do it myself correctly and timely. I can tell you it is expensive... especially since I went from completely stock to boosted. I did it all at once, turbo, CC, full exhaust, dyno tune, ecutek, and clutch. Not cheap... I won't say how much but :confused0068:

Think about a used kit. The works kit for reference has no intercooler and its in the same position as a rotated STi turbo kit, which means it sits right next to the battery, and this engine is very hot. Extra cooling will need to be taken advantage of if this kit is on the table.

I would suggest a used supercharger kit. Simply because they put out less heat and they are less complicated, plus CARB legal and most SC base tunes are drive-able from the factory, if you get a custom tune it will net you some more hp, but not much.

Vortech and Jackson Racing are the two SC that I would consider if I went that route.

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The "base" maps the OFT turbo and supercharger OFT 300 come with are daily drivable safe tunes if your in usa and on usa fuels. no need for further tuning uless you want themax power or you were a serious track warrior.

Sometimes base maps are just that just get the car started and drive slowy a short distance to tuner.

unless you live in a cold climate never track or drive hard for long periods running no more than say 8psi an oil cooler of some type is a must have for safety and piece of mind

For a proper FI setup with tuning, oil cooler, gauges you will need to pay at least 6-8k (plus labor), depending on the parts you choose. And then several thousand more for an engine rebuild when something goes wrong, or you wish more boost (and boost is addictive).
The most cost-effective solution to go FI is to sell the car and get something factory-turbo, WRX for example. You will have a new car with turbo, lower compression pistons, oil cooler (also as a bonus - AWD, spacier cabin and WARRANTY), all this for the same money or less than building a FI frs.
If you love frs for the chassis and dont consider other cars, maybe you should stay NA and invest in good suspension/brake components instead.

Have you heard of anyone in Aus having issues with the SBD/OFT setup?

Sorry for the off topic.

I went forced induction for under 4k. When infamous performance had a 10% off sale on all products, which they do right now, I bought the stage 1 innovate SC kit. Came out to $2875. Bought the e85 etune from delicious tuning for $300(this is assuming you have a cable and license already) and radium engineering pcv side catchcan for $220. I think all shipping was free and after taxes I spent just under $3700. I installed the SC myself which is actually rather easy. Was my first ever force induction install.
I kinda regret not getting the intercooler though. Not because I'm having problems with the SC but because the price went up. In a couple months I plan on buying a flex fuel kit and oil cooler since like you I worry a lot about my car and don't want to risk any problems but, as is my car has been running great.
Overall the innovate(now sprintex) kit is great power for the price but you really need either the intercooler or to run it on e85. If I had the choice though I would probably just have saved more money or gone with a different kit. The sprintex kit maxes out at ~300 whp and that's on e85 with full mods. Once my car is paid off I'll probably build the motor and change FI kits.

Mate don't know first hand of anyone using those kits here but our fuel even 100RON is not on par with the USA 93 so I suspect you might have to do a bit bit "tuning" to get them to work safety (no knock) on our fuels.

If they bring out E85 tunes then you would probably be ok.

I think you still have some research to do. moto-east is East Coast, and HRI Tuning is Southeast. They are both more than capable of giving you a proper tune. Why spend all that money and time to not maximize the capabilities of a given kit and just be content with a basemap? Don't give in to the traditional OTS solutions.

I believe the only OFT base maps available for FI kits are for the SBD and OFT300. AVO's base map (and others) for example are Ecutek. So if you only want to stick with OFT platform you're kinda limited.

Which is why my OFT will be for sale soon... :D

Off topic but..A little birdy from OFT sales just told me the OFT 350 will have 280 whp

FYI there's an intercooled innovate SC for sale in the classifieds for a steal price, a good setup for you I think. If I weren't having my house painted it would be mine by now :D

I'm new to the Toyobaru but I have been dealing with a FI Toyota MR2 for years. The motor has been very reliable, gen3 3sgte. But back to the point.

Have you seen the rear axles on the FRS/BRZ? They are tiny. About half the size of my MR2. You have to think about the internal race of them also.

A clutch would be another good investment, ~$700-$1000 from what I have seen for just the part. Its bound to go out after FI is applied.

There is always a risk going away from what the car built to take and you have to acknowledge that.

My trunk or something is creaking and cracking when I hit bumps and I only have 24k miles on it and its bone stock. Adding power will torque the chassis more also possibly making the noises come sooner or make them worse than they would have been.

This is just my 2c. I enjoy my FRS and plan on doing FI one day also, But for now its my DD and the MR2 is my race car.

i saw the words limited mechanical knowledge and budget. Two things that don't belong in a NA to Boosted car project.

you are right.. many of you are right. This is why I am holding off for a few years. Ill wait for the dust to settle in regards to whats out there and this cars ability to be boosted safely. I will continue on reading and educating myself. i will join the cars and coffee and mean some peeps that can maybe show me a thing or two. One of you mentioned that maybe I should consider new suspension and brakes. I think the stock brakes are fine (although reducing unsprung weight helps with speed) but I am intrigued by suspension.

I guess I am at a point now where I dont know what else to mod for performance. I could care less about looks. Tires should also improve the fun

Suspension is a great way to get started with the nitty gritty stuff in a car. As long as you dont buy the cheap chinese stuff, have at it :thumbsup: if you go down this path, coilovers look nice like the whole package, but dont neglect damper/spring/camber plate combos.

Use the extra few years to learn up on some of the car lingo, youll become a pseudo mechanic lol

you would be ok with a supercharger kit and a email tune or dyno tune. no more than 10psi

this thread is like a roller coaster of emotion. You cant! you can.. grrrr..

Yea, while a turbo inspires I am leaning towards a SC. Just hate to give up the OFT for ECUtek because I am so comfortable with it and understand it so well. Who knows,, down the road when I am ready to pull the trigger their may be more solutions.

thanks though

how do you drive?

driving style will impact the longevity of your car, especially if boosted.

if you're the kind of person that mostly just dailys and occasionally like to feel the power you will chances are see less issues than the person that floors it everywhere all the time because race car.

Judging by your use of complete sentences and words i'm leaning toward the first category.

Best advice I can give noting this important piece of information "Over time I expect to burn through more money but I hope not to."

You should stop while you are ahead. The road never ends on spending so if this will affect your choice then know that any FI does not end with just the kit.

The kit will make many things about the car evident in how they are insufficient. Even with a S/C I have found that the clutch is at the edge and does slip now. You will find the brakes must be improved, you will have to improve the cooling for the oil if you even think about anything aside from street driving. You will burn through tires more as you have more fun with the power.

If you are so easily worried then know that you will likely end up saving yourself lots of money and time by just stopping where you are and learn to be satisfied with the car as the package it is.

The grass is always greener on the other side until you get there and see the cons of more power. More parts break. Will it tempt you more and get more tickets on the street? If you keep it off the street then you will see you will spend more money on the track. This never changes in our passion of going fast. Being fast is a whole different thing and $$$ as well.

While I opened this thread requested information to benefit my decision making I am trying for it now to be "all about me". I appreciate this post and perhaps others will as well. I do drive like a baby. Never tracked it and never will. I red line maybe.. just maybe once a day because hell, that's where the power is and that's how it was supposed to be driven. With FI I will continue to baby the car. I believe you are right that how you drive it has very much to do with any problems that will surface and longevity of the car.

Regardless of all the caution signs here I am still very much intrigued with the process of going FI. I love projects but I am terrified of problems that will arise.

I still have some conflicting recommendations on oil coolers and catch cans. From my understanding, they are necessary if a person is to fall under the 2nd category as you describe above. I guess my temperature gauge, once FI, will be an indicator as to the need for an oil cooler.

you and you buddies could definately pull off a innovate system and email tune. Id do that.

We're in new england, as such we benefit from not having much more than a handful of "hot" days to deal with.

My catch can is a vta one made from a can of nair, zip tie mounted to a bookend under the battery. I have maybe $20 invested in it. Prior to that i had made a recirculating one of pvc. However it did not handle hot day autox well and cavitated. You should have a catch can. You do not have to spend $300+ on one.

My oil cooler is an 08+ sti sandwich plate (tab needs to be cut off base) that i got cheap on ebay and gave about a week of ultrasonic cleaning. Its fed through a couple custom t fittings in my radiator hoses (i bought new perrin ones to cut up). Before the hose cost i was around $100 deep.

I like the oe sandwich plate design for a new england non race use oil cooler.

Daily driving it warms the oil faster and provides a noticable difference to recovery times. its also perfect for autox with my oil temps typically hitting 235-40 during a run and quickly recovering to the 212 range in paddock. It is a bit weak for track use, but makes enough of a difference that i have no issue keeping it on the car long as it is only 20-30 minute sessions being run. In heavy use running the heat on full with vents out the window does make a noticable difference with temperatures seen.

The other advantage to the oe type oil cooling is that oil stays in the plate. Hoses are only uses for coolant. I'll take spraying coolant over spraying oil any day of the week. Ive seen firsthand 3 air oilcoolers leak (fitting tightness or hose off) on these cars alone since the spring.

I'm still on my stock clutch.

On legal roads i drive slow and sane unless the power is needed for getting out of the way (merging, etc). On a course i drive as hard as i am capable of doing for the given conditions.


Anyway point is the ancilary items to going fi don't necessarily have to cost an arm and a leg. Personally i think a $400 dual catch can set up is silly for anything other than astetics, and a $600 oil cooler in new england is complete overkill on a street car let alone the extra points of failure an air-oil cooler introduces.

If you get the Jackson Racing Supercharger with their tune, then you just put it on and you're ready to go. It has minimal maintenance, and the lack of issues in the owner's thread pretty much says it all.

I want to add boost. Can someone tell me how to turn this damn thing on?

Turn it to 11

ptuning or wait for the new french turbo to hit the forum

get all the goodies that ptuning will recommend.

Save up for another year and you will be in 10k range. this puts you into safe/prof install/ full system range