What Stand Alone's are Available?
 

What is available right now for stand alones on these cars? Interested in doing itb's on the car but not into spending 2k+ on ecu, trying to see if I have any options here. Thanks.

I know @Element Tuning uses a Hydra EMS on their car.


Why are you looking at ITBs? What do you hope to gain over the OEM setup?

Better sound, little more power, cool factor. Thats about it.

Stand alones but not 2k+ for modern engine control? Really?

Thanks for the info. I understand the difference between stand alone, piggy back, and a flash. I currently have my car tuned with ecutek. My tuner and one other person has told me I need a stand alone to be able to tune with the itb's, this is why I'm asking whats out there in the market. I also understand that they aren't cheap, but I know AEM has a good reputation and wasn't too expensive on other vehicles.

Edit: being told ecutek cant use tps for load

No worries.

Probably make more sense to run a custom manifold with itbs enclosed ala RB26DETT

You can get the Hydra EMS for about $2k, but that doesn't include install. I haven't read up enough on it to say if it's 100% plug and play or if it maintains all of your OEM functions. EDIT: Nevermind, here's the info: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46362

You can also go with a Motec unit, but it's more like $4k or more. The motec has the advantage of maintaining all of your OEM functions (ac, climate control, etc) and will be more or less plug and play. http://johnreedracing.com/subaru-ecu...-m150-pnp-kit/

With that being said, an ITB setup is a waste of money imo. Unless you have deep pockets, the novelty of ITBs is greatly overshadowed by it's cost vs return. If you did go through with it, the bill would end up being more than a quality turbo kit for a fraction of the power. Just my two cents :)

Take a step back for a second. The mass production ITB's out there with electronic throttle have the multiple butterflies driven by a single motor per bank, with a common shaft. Where are you going to find that to fit on your engine? Or were you seriously thinking about going with a cable throttle (might as well go carb while you're at it)?

You need two ITB units, consisting of 2 throttlebodies each driven by one DC motor. Then you need a controller with 2 H bridges to drive the respective TB's.

might as go carb while you're at it if you're converting to DBC?

shirley, you can't be serious.

Yeah. And a stand-alone fuel management system. Not a bad way to spend $10,000

Sounds like all the wrong reasons to even look at ITB's, IMO.

Then what are the right reasons nerd?

Love how all the guys with mm posts think they're god and decide to shit on everything that goes against their opinion.

If you don't think this is cool, then we're clearly not on the same page.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps9ik8fyul.jpg

Please tell me the owner of that Weld car is a moron.

Really? Is calling someone a nerd for disagreeing with you really necessary?

Also, that is a show car. That's why everything is tucked; that's why it has a deep candy paint; that's why most of the plastic bits have been replaced with polished aluminum. And I'm sure he spent a lot more than $2K on his ECU.

If you have the math and machining background to make ITBs and intake runners of the correct length, then go for it. No one here is stopping you. I guarantee it'll cost a lot more than $2K to get it running, even if you can actually build the system.

We're CLEARLY not on the same page then.

You're looking at spending (to do it right) $3500+ for sound, a tiny bit of power and to have it look cool. Forgetting the minimal power increase (you'll be hard pressed to find good gains on stock internals from ITB's), you're essentially paying that much to look and sound cool. Spend another $1500 (for turbo or supercharger) and you could have A TON more power, that is actually usable.

I'm not "shitting on it because it goes against my opinion", I'm telling you that running ITB's to look and sound cool is the biggest waste of money out there. You lose driveability, tuning is MUCH harder, etc, etc, etc. Might as well put on a 5 lb flywheel and 3 puck clutch while you're at it to make it even worse to live with.

The right reasons (IMO) for ITB's are better throttle response, and ability to better tune (despite being harder) each cylinder. To really make it worth your while you'll want higher compression, bigger cams, head work, etc. You'll be $15k into the engine/bolt ons/tuning in no time.

As for that car pictured, that's definitely a show car... I bet it rarely (if ever) actually gets driven. If that's what you're after, enjoy wasting the $3k+ to do it. Plus, look at the horrible path the manifolds take after the TB's. They should be dead straight shots, not snaked all over to make it look cool.

In my opinion, the only reason why you would go ITBs is for show car or if you consider custom fab work a hobby.

That engine bay is from a dedicated show car. The intake manifold, fuel rails, and ITB's all look custom. I would wager that a similar setup would cost close to $10,000 if you were to pay someone to make it for you, and that's not even the custom head and cam work you would need to get any real power out of it. After the dust settled, I would guess you would be left with a $15,000 bill and a car that makes power in the low 200's at the wheels.

Like i said tho, if you consider custom fab work a hobby, then have at er' and I hope it turns out like you want. If you just want something unique and you don't have an unlimited budget, this might not be the way to go about it.

20v 4ag's came stock with ITB's, as did some M3's, as did the RB26. to the best of my knowledge, people manage to drive those on the street.

And people convert Hondas to ITB. It's not impossible to do; it's just very very impractical for this chassis. It's a ton of work and a ton of money, or no work and three tons of money, for not a lot of gain.

right. it's a stupid fucking idea, but not because OMG ITB'S ARE COMPLETELY UNTUNABLE AND IT WILL NEVER DRIVE RIGHT EVER BECAUSE ONLY RACECARS HAVE ITBS

it's just because the DBW, stock EMS, and the boxer layout means you'll have to give your left nut to get ITB's on this motor, where on a honda you can just buy a cheap adapter plate and run toyota ITB's and adjust the TPS and you're done.

Like wparsons said though, it's not untunable, just more difficult to tune. On the other hand it allows you the flexibility of independently adjusting each cylinder, which is good.

I agree that it would be a raging bitch to do properly on this engine. And very expensive. Old Porsches had the ITBs going straight down into each cylinder, but they also had individual carbs on them, too. Whichever way you want to do it, you're not going to get it done with a 2K budget for an ECU.

you could probably run it on the stock ECU with a tune if you went with a setup like the one pictured where the ITB's all share one shaft, if you mounted a stock throttle motor to the end of it, then ran a plenum to a stock MAF. no idea if that'd fit under the hood though, probably not.

you also probably can't fab that unless you're good at CAD and have access to an NC machine shop, and machine time is free. but if that was the case, you wouldn't be asking about it on ft86club

All with plenums (with a plenum you can run MAP or MAF sensors MUCH easier), and all with factory tuning for driveability. Tuning a standalone for OEM like driveability without ITB's is a huge task, people REALLY underestimate just how much work it takes to make an engine behave in all daily scenarios. Tuning for WOT is a piece of cake in comparison.

Now add the complexity of ITB's, and good luck.

I would bet you're looking at a bill of over $1000 from the tuner alone to get a reliable, daily driveable tune on ITB's. Add the ECU required, plus all the hardware for the actual ITB's and you're getting into a VERY expensive build.

OP, I think you will struggle with your budget to get a workable ITB setup on the FA20. That said, i would love to be proven wrong. If you can do it you would become a god amoungst the NA crowd here.

Hydra EMS and MOTEC are I believe your best options at the moment. Talk to @Element Tuning if you are serious as they have a good knowledge of both our engine and the Hydra EMS.

Might not be able to pull this off, but thanks for the helpful answer. Might be more options available down the road to make this an easier task. 3k would be a reasonable amount to spend on this, plus maybe another thousand for cams, but that doesn't seem doable at this time.

Surprised nobody mentioned Megasquirt EMS. Possibly the cheapest out there.

Will look into that.

Also, this is probably more realistic and more along the lines of what I would actually do, but still prob not cheap.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...psgsezjfst.jpg

It has been some time since I have looked at megasquirt. Would it be able to run the VVTi and both the direct and port injection?

No idea, I think it can... There's so many versions out now. It's been a while since I last logged at it too

This just came up on my ig feed. Super Streets Scion Tuner Challenge car. Hopefully they release some info on itb setup.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n...ps0z3paiey.png

Megasquirt can't do either:

http://www.msextra.com/feature-xref.html