Winter Tracking Tires ?
 

Can anyone recommend an all season tire (not a winter snow tire) that is sticky below 50 degrees F ?

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In for:popcorn:

A snow tire will be MUCH better in the cold than an all season. They run softer compounds to maintain grip in colder temperatures.

If you want less squish, get a performance snow instead of an ice/snow. You'll find similar compounds, but with tread blocks designed for dry pavement more than deep snow or ice.

Still looking -

Anyone know of an all season tire (no cleats) that works at below 50 degrees F., and is stickier than average road tires ?
A winter snow tire would dissolve at ambient 40 to 50 F. on the track.



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CERBERUS

I don't know the answer to your question. But it brings up another question. Many tires say they are not to be used below a certain temperature. But you're asking about a track tire. Wouldn't a summer performance tire heat up to an acceptable temperature on the track?
Why would you want an all-season tire for track use? Are you planning on driving on a track with snow on it? I think providing very specific details of the venue and conditions might help you get a more accurate response.

I am asking about an all season tire, not snow, or track tire.
Very specific conditions are - pavement under 50 degrees.

A simple quest for an all season sticky tire, as I will be tracking from about 25 to 45 degrees F., and snow tires melt and the cleats rip off (except when the 4x4 Subie club rents Mosport after a snowstorm) !
;):burnrubber:

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CERBERUS

Ambient temperatures don't matter at all for a tire. What matters is track temperature, and how much heat you'll be able to get into the tires.

At 50F (10C), any typical good summer tires will still get plenty of heat on a track. At 25F (-3C) you're might be below what a ZII/RS3/Rival/RE11A/etc will need for heat, BUT if it's sunny out the track temp will probably be high enough to get them working well too.

Are you just lapping in the cold? Have you tried typical summer tires yet and found they don't build enough heat? You can always drop the pressure a few psi to help build some heat as well.

I know at an autox last weekend it was under 10C but when it dried out there was lots of grip on typical summer track/autox tires.

^^^what he said^^^
If you're on dry pavement driving hard, I'd steer clear of A/S tires. Go for summers.

Yea I'm going to a few track days in next few weeks. im sure the mornings will be below 50 degrees and even still dark out since I'll be swapping tires at 630 AM.

Never had a second thought about using my 200 tread wear tires. heat is a hell of a thing. ambient may have a large impact on something that has air running over it (radiator, etc) but I have a strong feeling (i.e. broscience) things that have a lot less air such as tires and brakes are not effected as much.

But as I said, I don't have much experience and haven't experienced "cold" temps yet. Soon.

I tracked my ZII's around 10* C in the rain (OTA school in early May this year) and they were totally fine.

I've run Michelin Pilot Sport AS3 on the track at 40 degrees with no issues. On the street the coldest temps I've used them in was mid-20s.

What does the term 'average road tire' mean to you?

I tracked Direzza Star Spec's at between 3 to 8 degree's C and it took 6 laps of driving on a skating rink to warm up the tires, (5 laps to late) while being out cornered by Prius tires LOL !

My Direzza ZII's have been tracking since last May and are now bald and have to come off.
I want to replace them with an ALL SEASON (not a snow) tire that is noticeably stickier in the cold, so I can go fast in the cold.
The twin goes to bed during high salt and gets new ZII's for high summer.

Experience with sticky all seasons, anyone ?

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CERBERUS

What about these? http://www.nittotire.com/passenger-tires/motivo-all-season-ultra-high-performance-tire/

I know @ Dipstik-sportech has them on his car right now. Maybe he can chime in.

I doubt you'd find much usefull info here


because the people who know enough about tires to distinguish between awesome, good, and so-so wouldn't drive on all seasons during the cold willingly, meaning if they were on all seasons, they'd be content with whatever is on the car and not pay too much attention to whether they were better than any other given all season.

having said that, your best bet would probably be reading through some Canadian Tire brochures on those random tires none of us really pay attention to.




as for going fast in the cold.. you can just buy a very narrow section width tire of your choice, they will heat up faster and roll a bit more.. but the grip will be there.

you can get a Toyo R1R in 205/55/16 and pair them with some steelies.

I think so long as you stay in your "50*F" zone you should be fine.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/survey...jsp?type=UHPAS

This survey might help you. If I were in your shoes, I'd just call them up and put the question to them.

The reason I have nothing specific to offer is:

1) Generally, I consider all-season tires to be no-season tires, so I run them only on the grocery-getter

2) As a concept, sticky all-season tires doesn't make sense; if you're successful, though, I suspect we're all going to learn something that might prove useful

3) On track days in the 30-45F degree range, I run NT01s; they've worked well, and along the way I learned that I only needed to add 1-2# more air than normal to start (on a smooth track with sun on half of it)

Can't go fast on steelies.

And yep, not much useful info here, but I was hoping someone in the great white frozen north has had some experience in trying to corner fast when it's below R spec temps.

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CERBERUS

maybe you can't...

You don't know me because when I started racing in the 60's, you may not have been born yet.


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Agreed, all season tires are not. They are a compromise for ALL temps, I was hoping to find one with the traction bias to the freezing side.

In other words a winter tire without snow cleats, that covers the gap between snow tires and all season (a tire that doesn't exist ?),
Or a winter tire that won't melt between snow tire temps and 10 degrees C.

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CERBERUS

that just tells me that in 50 years of racing you've not learned a whole lot about what matters.

you're so smart, why are you asking us which street tires you can buy so you can "race" in the cold?


I've not seen you at regional OTA or Autocrosses though, which series are you currently involved in?


..........and I wonder if you're related to a certain individual we had on the casc forums.. "TFB", very similar mannerisms coming from you. HMMMM.....

As you don't know me , I assume your insults are directed to "TFB". It seems vexatious mannerisms are coming from you with regards to a competition of superior self imagery with this person TFB, and I assure you I am not or never have been "TFB".

Your inflammatory comments about asking about street tires is conducive to trolling and does not foster the promotion of our frs brz community.

I asked about the tires not because "I was so smart" but because I could not find a suitable tire given the described parameters of my need.

Although I don't give a $hit about trolls, this forum is for exchange of information, and someone who insults posters seeking knowledge discourages newbies from participating on the site and is a detriment to our community.

(SUBERMAN accepted - he's so looney, no credibilty but so much fun !)

:cheers:

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CERBERUS

XXR527 .
Chrome Black .
17x8.25；
+25 .
5X100/5X114

Tires are Michelin X-Ice Xi3 225/45R17.

Not a "Winter Track" setup but definitely provide good handling. Rims are light weight and X-Ice is the best handling winter tire.
BTW, these wheels clear my Brembo BBK and look "fit" because of the small +25 offset.


.
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...1&d=1412904682
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Hows the wear between freezing and 50 degrees ? Bald in a couple of laps ?

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CERBERUS

you're dismissing our suggestions and getting annoyed that we're not feeding you the very specific information for whatever it is that you wish to achieve


you flaunt your age and involvement with the sport to "put me in my place", like you've put some puzzle out for the kids to solve and aren't appreciating that someone isn't taking all that seriously.

pot meet kettle

Not winter track tires. Just winter tires...

the reality is that you should be asking this in a tarmac rally forum, not the wheel and tire section of an FRS forum.


maybe find a Finnish forum and ask them what they scoot around on in their areas.


in fact, a quick google search for wrc winter tarmac tires brought me around to this little gem. So go nuts.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....nter+Sottozero

Trolls always offer comments that were not made or intentionally misinterpreted to prove their theory.

I have not dismissed anything by my comments and have not expressed annoyance. Those are interpretations of YOUR mind.

Even though a lot of verbiage was offered by you and others that did not offer the info specifically asked for I have not dismissed ANYTHING. All knowledge from experience is good even yours.

I repeated specifics and good peeps are offering good info related to the specifics - a tire that will be sticky in the nether temp zone.

I "flaunted" nothing, but when I saw your comment "if you're such a hotshot how come I've never heard of you" (before you edited it out of your post), clearly inflammatory, and I responded with a simple true fact.

It seems you have a habit of intraweb sparring for the sake of sparring, (a troll, gotta have the last word), so for the good of all if you wish to continue I suggest you do it through PM's from now on otherwise you are a waste of bandwidth.

:dnftt:

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CERBERUS

Went through all that when we set up and ran the Jeep Cup off road rallies before it went international. Maybe there's more out there now.
Lookin good, Thanx !

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CERBERUS

the only habbit I have is letting people know what's up


it is only natural they take offense, since none enjoy being put on the spot, but I pray for the rare times when the message gets through


you believe this forum to be a wealthy encyclopedia, you couldn't be further from the truth. This is a young forum based around a new car. The vast majority of whom never have, and never will, come even remotely close to competition.

Most discuss the more immediate aspects of car ownership and meet for coffee and leaf tea...

Those few who do, rarely take the scientific approach and simply share personal experiences, which often can be poked full of holes if given enough scrutiny... which tends to get people upset.


so I revert back to my initial claim on the first page


you've come to a beer hall looking for a vintage chardonnay, enjoy.


EDIT: and I won't take to PMs to end what another has started.

I am amazed at your abilty to know what I believe.
However, you are incorrect.
I do not believe nor have I ever stated what you say I said.
What I believe is quite different than your prejudical view.


As this is the main worldwide site for our cars, it has been a cornucopia of information on everything about our cars, and calling it a beer hall in your context is an insult to the operators and users of the site (it may have been true at the beginning but not now).

This forum CAN be and HAS been an encyclopedia (getting wealthier all the time), but yes you are absolutely correct in the phenomenon of newbies, idiots and trolls offering inexperienced or stupid opinions on a new car platform in which experienced opinions are sparse (until the experience happens).

We do have to do a LOT of gleaning to separate the valid info from the bullcrap, but isn't that the nature of all intraweb forums ?

I have heard that the main man is a bit of a crank, but I am grateful for his
efforts at running this valuable forum and wish him and ft86club.com and its contributors success in all future endeavours.

And yes, I am even also grateful for your contributions (after gleaning LOL).
By the way - you'd be surprised by what I've found in beer halls (besides beer LOL).
:cheers:

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CEREBRI

RE960AS Potenza can be run on track and on snow.
Truth is you can run any winter tire on track, but there are penalties on wear rate and grip. Depends on what you value.

Why does the type of wheel matter in the slightest if you can go fast or not?

As for helpful info... you've been given some, but chose to ignore it because it wasn't the answer you wanted.

I bet if you play with tire pressures the summer tires will heat up properly and work very well in colder temps. I had zero issues with my ZII's at ~10* C in the rain, or my RS3's at ~5*C in the wet. Both times I started with lower pressures to help them heat up.

Also, first page of google results for "track tire for cold weather" brought this up:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-revi...s-track-tested

If they were able to run many laps with no measurable wear, what are you doing to winter tires that is shredding them to pieces?

The best compromise for COLD lapping is probably going to be a shaved performance winter tire. Shaved will give less squirm, but you'll still have the compound meant for cold weather.

excellent link, Will

I'm LMAO over here. The article states, "... at the end of a hard session of high-speed lapping, the Wintersports didn’t exhibit any measurable or visible wear at all."

Then they show this picture:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/cm/roada...s_ST-14-sm.JPG

Yeah...no visible wear at all. Everyone's snow tires look like that. :rolleyes:

I've driven snow tires at the track in the spring


I was mindful of what I was doing obviously, but still giving it... of course they'll wear, but they won't be shredded by any standards


likewise, I tend to put my winters on early and ride them well into the spring, I usually get 3-4 seasons out of a set no problems, and I only replace them out of fear of them being heat cycled out.. never because of wear.




honestly, I encourage everyone to take their car out on the track on snows at least once, just to see whats up.

"Why does the type of wheel matter in the slightest if you can go fast or not ?" - Are you serious ?

And your evidence that I ignored info ? Repeating my request in a more specific clarifying manner to get more specific info is not ignoring information.

As for your link, since I could not find the temperature the test was conducted at, I am assuming that it was at the temps designed for the tire - freezing and ergo it would not melt. It did make a valid point though.

My original question was not posed to enter into debate as to how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, but for a practical need.

In my area we have a lot of spring and fall weather between snow tire and R-Spec temps (freezing to 10C). I seek a tire that will be stickier than R-Specs above freezing.
I am tracking next week and the temps will be 3 to 8 Degrees C.

At winter temps there are smooth winter tires that are sticky but by then the snow puts my car in hibernation.

Simple question, complicated by forum trolling, snotiness, self esteem issues, ego's etc. - standard forum discourse nowadays it seems.

:sigh:

But still worth asking !

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CERBERUS

Where in Canada are you? I would bet that a typical fast street tire (not R compound) will have more grip if pressures are set correctly for the temperatures than an all season or winter tire will in 0-10*C.

Like I said, I had zero issues with RS3 v2's in 5* and rain or ZII's in ~10* and rain. Sure there's less grip than a 30* dry day, but they're definitely better than the stock tires, all seasons, snows, etc.

Any experiences with a fast street tire ? Any suggestions ?

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CERBERUS

Seriously? I gave my thoughts on ZII's and RS3's twice already. Both are great street tires, and not R compounds.