Adjustable shocks+ springs vs Coilovers
 

I am not super experience with it. I've only done after market non adjustable shocks with springs.

I was wondering, with the shocks + springs when the shocks wear out , i would only need to replace the shocks.

With the coilovers, the entire set would have to be replaced is that correct?


Thinking about getting coilovers, but at almost $1000+ for a good set of coilovers + corner balancing + installation, it seems to expensive for my goals.

I want to be able to play with my dampers so being adjustable is nice.


I heard some companies like Koni have lifetime warranty. Whatever that means.

:laughabove:

$1000 won't buy you shit for quality in a set of coilovers. Good coilovers start at $2.5K and go up from there. $1K coilovers are, IMO, a downgrade from the factory setup are worthless for anything other than slamming a car to the ground with no concern at all for performance.

For $1K, get yourself a set of quality dampers from Koni or Tokico etc, and some springs from @Racecomp Engineering.

Not necessarily. The springs and dampers can be, and often are, replaced independently (for spring rate changes). The only real difference between coilovers and aftermarket struts/springs (which are also coilovers on most cars, FYI) is adjustable vs. fixed spring perches.

$1200 coilovers are considered "entry level" suspension. Meaning they will give you the bare minimum in performance with the addition of adjustable spring perches and various levels of dampening.

Typically entry level coilovers are good for:
1. Saving some weight from stock suspension components
2. Customize the level of ride height
3. Clears the addition of wider wheels
4. Stiffer spring rates and shock dampening for HPDE.

The cons about entry level coilovers, most are tuned every similar across all their available applications. Which in most cases are too stiff to be competitive in modified classes on MOST HPDE. They usually lack the appropriate spring rates and valving per ftlb, and are not offered with a wider selection of spring rates. Which most of the time have to be custom made or ordered if the manufacture has options available. Also the materials used on the piston and the piston size are usually smaller vs their more expensive counterpart. Iv seen Megans, early JIC, early Tein, Ksport, and other 600-1200 coilovers snap and break under heavy use for long periods of time. I cannot say the same about $3000 with a stronger and lighter case, proper twin+ valving, stronger and larger piston diameter, durable spring materials, solid perch, and sometimes external reservoirs.

If your goal is NOT getting the absolute best performance, quality, and ultimately durablity and lifespan. and you want the minimum amount of sporty performance+adjustability on a car you don't plan on pushing to its limits. Then coilovers are your best choice.

If your looking for more performance out of the OEM factory settings, and take it to the absolute limit. With the addition of durability and overall lifespan a proper shock/Damper+spring combo tuned to your specs is going to wield you better results over $600-$1200 entry level coils in the same HPDE.

Yeah, 3000$ for coilovers will never happen in my "just for fun" experience for cars.

The coilovers need to be replaced eventually, and then its another $3000 if i want to have the same set.


I was looking at Koni sports (yellow) , and they have a set that comes with matched springs i suppose. What do you guys think? is this the best HPDE/autocross adjustable dampening shock for Spring/shock combo?

http://www.koni-na.com/sportkit.cfm

Or i should just go for TRD springs (if they're available for the FRS), and then do aftermarket adjustable dampening shocks. This seems more realistic.

i like the TRD springs idea w/konis. But id favor Blisteins overs anything for dampers.

Bilstein B8 (sport) don't have any adjustable dampening.

So I'm stuck with STIFF and no fun in being able to dial in my preferred handling.

B6 (heavy duty) is meant to be used with stock springs i think...but is the only shocks that has adjustable dampening.

It seems it is always a battle between Koni's or Bilsteins. Are there anything else worth going for if looking for shocks?

Tokico is a good name, have a set on my car and they're very nice.

Not necessarily. Most good coilover shocks like those from AST or Koni among others, can be rebuilt at a lower cost than buying the whole setup new again.

howdy... anyone have ideas on shocks and struts replacement cost? im also interested to have aftermarket parts and lookin' for cheap repair... thanks.

NO!

Good coilovers are rebuildable and should last as long as the car. Service intervals will be about the same as a standard strut- 50-60k miles, unless you are racing, then it's a good idea to have them checked out every season or two.

Everyone should talk to their vendor about the rebuild process when buying coilovers, and make sure you know who can do it and what it takes. If all they have to say is deal with the mfg directly then you should probably look elsewhere. Good shops like Turn in Concepts and Racecomp Engineering have the ability to rebuild stuff in house, or if not will be able to help you deal with the manufacturer when getting them serviced. Some companies that I really like; KW, JRZ, and AST are all great to deal with and will rebuild their products here in the US. KW is located outside of Fresno, CA and JRZ has a Socal and east coast location to do servicing. AST/Vorshlag is in Texas.

The cheaper coilovers, like Megan, BC, etc, don't rebuild stuff. They just send you a new cartridge that the lower clevis threads onto. That says something about the quality of the parts and how they are made when it's not even worth it to rebuild the shock. Just toss it in the trash and get a new one. To make things worse they have the same policy with all the other parts, so by the time you do need a new cartridge the bearings in the tops will probably be trashed and the spring perches may be seized. The KWs and such are designed to last the life of the car and be serviceable. And KWs for example use stainless steel housings and composite spring perches so they won't rust or seize together.

This

Let me see if I can help.

First, Coil-overs are not magic. In fact the term is used incorrectly all the time. All coil-over really means is that the coil is over the dampers. The car is like that stock!

Now, what folks mean by the term coil-over is adjustable HEIGHT. This is done via perches that move up and down via threads (like a screw) and these kits come with new springs (usually a race type spring) that are stiffer rate. You can then pick the height you want, within some range. PLEASE NOTE that a lot of "coil-overs" that are adjustable do NOT allow you to adjust the damping setting. And some of the ones that do give that adjustment link compression and rebound damping together. Others have those separate, or only have rebound damping. The latter 2 are much better than the former two.

So you have three things to consider. Damping (how well it works and if it is adjustable). Ride height (do you want to be able to monkey with it or are you ok with a standard drop). And spring rate (which can be altered with an easy spring swap on most "coil-overs").

Here's the thing. There are a LOT of companies that make this sort of stuff. And a lot of it is trash. Most folks don't know that because this stuff isn't cheap and many haven't had the chance to run multiple setups to compare. I have, aside from running a shop where it's my business to know what works (and the fact I have one of these cars too). I also compete very seriously in autocross (and I win) which is hugely shock intensive.

I will tell you flat out that a set of Koni Sports (which are coming if you can be patient) and a nice set of lowering springs (not all are equal there, and some names you "know" tend to be some of the more sucky stuff) will be better than an el-cheapo set of "coil-overs".

Shocks/struts (dampers) are NOT easy things to make, make well, and make work correctly. Koni makes dampers for Formula 1 cars. KW makes dampers for Touring cars and some of the highest performance production cars in the world. Bilstein has some pretty awesome shocks, and I sell that brand too (along with others like Ohlins), but Bilstein's aren't usually my recommendation for a few reasons. Standard ones offer no damping adjustment. And PSS9 and 10's that do, link the compression and rebound together. Well, those do different things and wanting more of one does not in any way mean you want more of the other. In fact you really want more rebound damping, as compression damping is a control of unsprung weight, which generally we don't add a lot of with lighter wheels, etc.

I'm glad this question was asked, it allows me to explain a little of what I know and how I work and what I do. In the end many of us sell the same parts, but not many of us have the same knowledge base. And setting up a car, particularly a RWD is new to many here, but it is not to me.

I've got some 14 SCCA National Championships. I'm helping William Cook with his car (and in fact the base setup I gave to him he barely changed and loves, according to the conversation I had with him tonight).

i think you can get a decent coilover (revalved bilstein/gc combo) for just above that price. what you need to do is throw adjustability out the window. that is really expensive and in my opinion, more a luxury than a necessity. a shocks job is to control the spring. your springs should have a static rate. if a spring isnt adjustable, the shock doesnt need to be adjustable. besides, the reduction in lap times from spending 1.5k more on shock is not as big as the reduction in lap time from spending 1.5k on track time

My perspective is this, the purpose of this car was to handle well and a lot of time and $ went into the stock setup. I really don't feel a budget suspension set up will provide much if anything over stock. If just wanting to get rid of some wheel gap I'd opt for TRD/STI springs when available.

Cheers for the info Sam......:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

+1 Outstanding post.

mod the driver...:clap:

like Sam stated your dampener is the performance link and i totally agree. the reason the high end suspension makers "allow" you to choose a spring. i havn't chosen my springs yet but have decided on JRZ dampeners. my shocks alone are gonna run more than what some ppl will pay for coils. i wasted so much money on bolt-ons in the past before i got smart and worried about fixing myself and learning why certain parts had certain effects.

my particular goals with this car are all related to personal improvement. so my path is pads, ss lines, fluids, bushings, then shocks/springs, then tires, then sways. that's it. don't need power upgrades to makeup for slow corner exit right now. in my opinion that's the optimal path for driver development in this car the way it was engineered and delivered. i can't quantify how much faster taking small steps adds up. and how much chasing power will slow most ppl down in the long run. even the autox guys i would advise to run the stock suspension until they are 100% at the limit. it's that good guys. learn the car before you change too much on it and can't keep up. i learn more everyday about this stuff and just how much greater suspension changes effect the car and driver than power changes do.

Do you have a link to the JRZ dampers? I can't find any dampers for the BRZ on their site or anywhere on the web.

And which of these companies make dampers which are compatible with lowering springs? Seems like most are only made to run with the stock springs.

any update on this?

Here's our write-up for the JRZ RS1 coilovers:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11759

We also have a thread in the vendor section.

You won't see them on their website, but we are just up the road from their east coast HQ and have them available now.

- Andrew

Ah I assumed that JRZ made just shocks instead of full coilovers.

Anyone know of some performance shocks to match with lowered springs? Someone HAS to make them..right?...

Nothing yet.

Koni will probably first. Bilstein will have something eventually.

- Andrew

Hmm ok. Doesn't Koni usually come out with shocks that are for stock springs and not lowering springs? Seems risky for the guys that are using lowering springs without a backup shock for one the stock shocks when they go..

Koni Yellows can definitely handle some spring rate over stock. Not gonna be great with a huge drop, but you shouldn't do that anyway if you care about handling.

- Andrew

Definitely not looking for a huge drop. Just something that handles well and is maybe a 1" drop. I guess I'll just have to hold off till someone makes shocks.

The stock shocks aren't that bad at all. They work really well at least with our RCE Yellows.

- Andrew

How are the wear rates with the stock shocks? The extra compression from the lower springs would increase shock wear I assume? A lot of people on the forums seem to be just watching and waiting to see how long they last

sorry if its posted what are the rastes on the yellows?

Whats your view on the eibach sportlines or Teins that lower 1.4 inches? How do you feel they will do with a set of KONI adjustable shocks?

250 lbs/in front and rear.
20mm drop front and rear.

Much firmer than everyone else up front. This was done because the front and rear of the car react differently to changes in spring rates and drops.

Instead of just increasing the spring rates by 10% front and rear, we did something different. The front needs an increase in roll resistance more than the rear does because the roll center of the front drops at a different rate than the rear when you lower the car AND the front has a different dynamic camber curve than the rear. A bigger increase up front meant better turn-in and things stay happy with the suspension loaded up in a corner with more grip. And it's easy to drive since you can put power down through the rears easily, especially with the stock rear diff. And with the mild drop plus our firmer front rates, you're not hitting our shortened bumpstops like the other companies soft fronts with bigger drops.

- Andrew

Myles daily drove our springs for months with no change in the damping characteristics of the stock shocks. They have a lot of head room surprisingly. We could have gone firmer actually but there was no need to for the RCE Yellows. We were very happy with where we were at in terms of balance, grip, durability, and ride quality.

Bigger drop springs that ride the bumpstops will likely have issues. The spring rate of the bumpstops spikes very rapidly and many of the springs out there are very bumpstop active...

- Andrew

1.4 inches is too much from a function point of view. EDIT: I mean with lowering springs.

It'll be better with Konis but still not enough travel left at that point. Doesn't matter how good the damping is if you cut your available bump travel down by more than half.

If form is what someone is after then they may do the trick but 1.4 inches is making sacrifices in terms of driving the car.

- Andrew

That is what I thought. :)

Have you guys run the JRZ's on the shock dyno?

Yes.

To clarify, I meant 1.4 inches is too much with lowering springs. It's still a lot with coilovers but you can make it work.

- Andrew

What is the maximum amount that can be lowered with springs on stock shocks before you start running into trouble? Around 1"?

Thanks for this explanation, although I can't say I fully understand it all! But I was a bit confused why other springs such as the Eibach Prokit ones seem to maintain roughly the same front-to-rear spring rate ratio as stock, but your Yellow springs have a very different ratio (1 to 1) from stock.

It kinda SEEMS like with the Yellow springs you just said "Bah, let's just make the front and rear rates the same...it'll be simpler", but I'm sure that's not what it is, and it's good to see some of the reasoning behind the decision.

So in your view, springs like the Eibach ones that drop around 1" and maintain a similar front-to-rear rate ratio as stock aren't getting things right? They aren't appreciating that the roll centers drop at different rates, the dynamic camber curves are different, etc.?

It depends on the spring rates too...if they're soft like a lot of the springs out there than 1 inch would be my cut off point. That's my opinion.

- Andrew

Noooo not at all. We actually started with a softer front with our initial prototypes and while it felt pretty good, the car just got better and better with more front rate. We tried multiple configurations and did a lot of nerdy stuff too.

I'm not going to say that springs that keep a similar ratio to stock are "doing it wrong" but the way we did things matches our tuning philosophy and hits our design goals. There is more than one way to do things and this is just the way we like best for a sport lowering spring on the standard shocks with good handling, good ride quality, and good looks.

- Andrew

I like the way you do business!