Questions before I buy a 2013 FR-S
 

Hello; I have worked out a deal on a leftover 2013 FR-S. This will be a new car. After doing some searching, some potential engine failure issues seem to be associated with these cars.
The direct Injection seals (DIS) and detonation issues perhaps being the most serious.
I do not plan to modify the car nor take it to the track, but hope for long term reliability. The car is an unsold 2013 so if no fixes were in place from the factory, that will be good to know.

First; Does anyone know if the DIS issue has been resolved by Toyota? If a factory fix has been put in place, does anyone know which cars got the fix?

Second; Does anyone know if the detonation issues have been resolved and which cars were fixed?

Third; With regard to any other issues, does anyone have any comments or pointers about my buying a 2013 model of the FR-S? I have test driven two. I like the manual transmission and the way the car drives. I am most concerned with issues that might take the car out of service or have it in the shop. I also tend to keep cars for over ten years, so long term reliability guestimates are welcome..

I own a low serial number '13, and have had absolutely no issues in a little less than 50,000 miles. Like any make of car, there are going to be some that have mechanical issues but most do not. Just have the dealer show you all the recalls and service bulletins, then make up your own mind.

I probably have "crickets" but that doesn't bother me. I need to take it in to get checked but that isn't really a mechanical issue more than an acoustic one.

I keep a car until the wheels fall off, then I JBWeld them back on and keep driving it. I have no doubt I'll get over 250K out of my car.

I would not hesitate to purchase a fully warranted 2013 today. In fact, I'd do that over a new '15 just because of the cost savings.

I also have a low serial 13 with about 50k and no serious problems here as well.

I also have a 2013 model with 26,000 on it. So far only had the leaky tails as an issue and the crickets, but the crickets don't bother me. :)

30k, zero issues, 12/12 build date.

Look at the production date, if built after March 2013 I believe the direct injector 'fix' has been implemented. Other than that I completely agree with Dadhawk.

Also, I think the non-touch-screen head unit owners like their stereo better than the touch screen owners, '13 FTW.

Mine was mfd 10/12 and bought in November '12; I have 18k miles and zero problems (aside from crickets of course). The mileage is low for the age, but it is my daily driver - I just happen to be gone for multiple days at a time.

Mine was mfg 04/12 and no serious issues yet. Just had a faulty battery replaced under warranty but that is the fault of Panasonic, who supply the OEM battery. Crickets are not a malfunction, just a quirky part of this vehicle. Also had several tail light assemblys replaced due to leaking but again I wouldn't let that deter me from buying this vehicle.

The DI seals issue seems common on heavily tracked cars like the rentals at Nurburgring as well as hard driven FI cars. Appears to be a non-issue otherwise.

Only issue that I've had with my 2013 has been freezing window seals, which I doubt would affect you quite so much.


If you do happen to have window issues there is a TSB that replaces a lot of the power window components and seals. It was a production line update in late 2013/early 2014.


I'd consider asking for fresh oil and maybe brake fluid if that car has been sitting for almost 2 years.

They still have 2013s on the lots?

Jeez...

Hello: Yes I know of two on dealer lots right now. The dealer in Kingsport TN will not haggle.

Engine troubles
 

Most all issues are covered in the 3yr/36k mile warranty, don't know if they're covered in the powertrain 5yr/60k, but every 7.5k miles you will get a free inspection up to 25k mi. or 2yr so capitalize on that, I would say go for it. Did you actually get a good discount on your FR-S? It's Scion Company policy to not negotiate...

Is Scion still doing the Pure Price thing? If so, then they technically aren't allowed to haggle on the base price.

OP: my FRS was made in October 2012, and I've had crickets and tail light condensation. Both were replaced some time in late 2013 and the crickets came back, tail lights were fine. I never had any issues with DI seals or detonation, but in my experience, both of those are very uncommon problems.

My concern would be that the car was just sitting around for 1-2 years. Hopefully they at least occasionally drove it. Unless it's a significant discount, I would just buy a 2015 model. That way, you're paying a bit more for the peace of mind that comes with a brand new car. Also, you don't know how many test drives that 2013 car has been on haha

Inquire if the VIN of the car you are buying falls under the range of cars that have TSB's issued...and if it does, make sure the TSB's have been performed before you take delivery

That's a misconception of sorts. Pure Pricing means the price the individual dealer advertises and/or posts is the one you have to pay and they have to charge. A dealer could list all their 2013's at $5,000 or $50,000 and would have to sell them all for that.

If you're going to pay sticker on a 2013, why not get a 2015 for an extra thousand bucks?

There is zero reason to get a 2013 at this point unless it's at a very heavy discount.

I have a 2013 10 Series. No issues to report. About to go through my second oil change.

If you plan to sell the car, I'd get a 2015 for better resale value. I don't plan to sell this car ever so the 2013 with the discounts were great. Mine was built 6/2013 of 7/2013 and i bought it 12/2013. Got 1500 off MSRP and 700 or something for the college grad rebate.

I think very few cars have had any major engine issues with this platform stock. I really would not worry about it and your engine powertrain warranty is 5yr 60K miles.

That's exactly right. I've seen '13s on lots posted with a $1500 off MSRP by the Scion dealer. I got roughly the same on mine new. I walked on the dealers who tried the PP BS with me, I worked with the dealers that didn't and I ended up buying one from them. Simple. You can also get around the PP BS by using your bank/credit union to price your vehicle (sort of true price/TMV) through deals they have with the fleet or internet manager.

Those issues were mostly found in some of those tracking or revving at around redline. Don't do either and you should be fine regardless.

Hello; Thanks for the replys so far. To answer a question, yes the car is being discounted. I would indeed be looking at the newer models if the pure pricing stuff was strong in effect.

Hello; To get back to the area of my initial question. Does the 5 yr /60000 mile powertrain warranty cover the fuel injection system? I suppose that a total engine failure is covered in that time limit.

Hello; I have the vin number. How does one go about matching the vin with the TSB's that have been issued?

The TSB's posted in linked thread cover certain vin ranges. If your vin falls within that range, and symptoms are present, the TSB should be performed:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21868

I am VERY glad to see all the positive posts here! Generally on a forum like this all you hear about are the "problems" with the car. This is of course the first place many come for answers and can cause a misconception that the issue is actually more common than they really are. It is also a place where those that like to do major mods discuss their proble ms so again a problem that may never be seen in a stock or lightly modded car may seem to be common. Are there problems with the cars. Certainly! Are they as bad as they seem. Probably not!

I have a late '13 car and have had no issues other than crickets that were resolved with the HPFP TSB. I'm told by other owners they could return but if so I'll wait for another HPFP upgrade and get it then.

Keep in mind that any '13 needs an oil change as defined by time and/or mileage in the owner's warranty guide. Have that done before delivery. Also, bumper-to-bumper means everything, including free four-wheel alignments during the first 18 months or 12,000 miles (I think), wiper blades, floor mats, you name it.

Have fun with your car, modern manufacturing and quality assurance have come a long way to produce nearly bulletproof cars in recent years. I wouldn't hesitate to buy a leftover at a great price. Just think of our overseas enthusiast friends here reading this who cough up three year's+ income and wait six months+ to join the club.

Hello; Thanks I will check the list

Hello; You make good points. Many of the issues I have seen listed for the FR-S are not too serious. I do not expect a car to be problem free. My concern started with finding references to the serious problems associated with direct injection seal failure and transient throttle detonation events. Both of these issues can lead to engine damage or failure.

From my reading, it seems that the car companies keep information about such serious issues to themselves as much as possible. Apparently a fix will eventually be incorporated into the normal production lines once such a fix is found. Consumers with cars produced before the fix may get lucky and have the issue fixed under warranty. Warranty fixes, it seems, are one way the companies find out about problems.

A goal of this thread is to see if a known fix has indeed been found for the more serious issues and, if possible, about when a fix may have been put in production.

I have a friend with a 2000 Porsche Boxter that he bought used a few years ago. He did not do any checking. He was not aware of the Intermediate Shaft Bearing failures that have affected perhaps as much as 10% of engines made with an intermediate shaft.

The members of this forum posting positive experience with their FR-S cars is reassuring. One post indicated a feeling that the factory production fix may have been put in place around March 2013 for the DI seals. In wishing to know for sure if and when such a production fix was made, I may be asking for information that is not available to members of this forum. At any rate I appreciate any information shared on these more serious issues and the less serious issues as well.

I will follow up when possible on any suggestions made. I sent an e-mail to the dealer requesting the production date of the particular car in question and await a reply. I will also try to check to check the TSB's with reference to the car's VIN.

Thanks again for the timely replies and for taking an intrest.

I give you high marks for researching things so thoroughly before making your purchase. I just bought 2013 FR-S 10 Series new from a dealer last month and, like you, I read everything I could on this forum about issues with theses cars. Obviously, in the end I decided to buy the car - my decision being driven by substantial discounts and really liking Silver Ignition and the unique features of the 10 Series (aside from the backlit badges).

There are still a lot of 2013 cars on the lots, and even more 2014s. While I don't want to hijack your thread, discussing negotiated prices may be helpful for other buyers of these cars - I know it would have been for me. Scion dealers that I visited generally used their Pure Price policy as a reason to not to negotiate, but after visiting three dealerships in my search for a 10 Series, I finally found one that would. I paid $23,500 before tax, title, and license on a car with a sticker price of $28,300 that had 32 miles on the odometer and was still on the showroom floor. What price have you been able to negotiate so far?

Either way, good luck and enjoy the car!

got mine in january '13, and i've had no issues other than tail light condensation (which i didn't have until after i was rear-ended, so it may have been from the new lights)

Hello; $23,852 + a $399 doc service charge + $79 data doc fee+ Tax -tag & license fees MSRP $28,249. Looks like you negociated a better deal.

#dat13lyfyo

I have to wonder why a 2013 is still sitting on a lot. How many miles does it have?

I just bought my 2015 from Jim Barkley Toyota in Asheville, not far from you at all, sticker was $26,194, I bought it for $25,373. No dealer fees, no paperwork or admin fees. Unless you REALLY want a 2 year old FR-S, I would buy a new one for less money.

Hello; Very interesting. A 2015 at that price is a much better deal with depreciation and trade in value factored in. Also any upgrades and /or fixes wil be in place in the later model.

Another factor to consider. Yes Ashland is not so far a way from me.

How many miles are on the car you are dealing for? if it was a demo car with a few hundred miles on it, I would make them drop the price more. They have to bend eventually, or the car will probably stick to the lot for it`s whole life. Also, call other dealerships and ask what they can do for you. Might have another dealer that is inclined to negotiating.

What ever you do, be patient. When you are comfortable and happy with the deal they give you, then you can go ahead and make it final.

Hello; I asked in an e-mail that the salesman send me the mileage and the build date this past weekend. So far no answer. Based on responses on this thread the sale price will need to be further discussed.

I agree with the notion of being patient. I do not quite see the "pure pricing" tactic working out well for Scion as it did not seem to for Saturn and others. These car companies could make such a strategy work if they made the starting price point reasonable and did not jack the price with inflated options and "added dealer profit" fees.

The dealer closest to me with the leftover 2013 and 2014 FR-S's is at least $1,700 over on the 2013 compared to the one I am talking with now. My guess is that they better get the information about what the leftover cars are selling for at other dealers. I do not wish to de-rail my own thread too much, but if someone knows more about this please feel free to comment.

While all this is info is calculated and evaluated- we're out driving our cars and adding and removing stuff. It's not always about getting the cheapest price.

Don't worry about paying too much- it's only money and you can make more. :thumbsup:

Hello; Interesting point of view, but not one I favor. I find satisfaction in avoiding cars with known issues and also like to feel I have made as good a deal as possible.
You may not actually be suggesting that I over pay and ignore potentialy serious reliability issues, but your comment might be taken that way. I imagine dealers are much more pleased to see customers with your attitude than with mine.

To me a sweet ride is all the more enjoyable if I have also made a good deal. To each, his/her own way. Good luck and enjoy your car.

if the price is within a few thousand dollars I would go for the 2015. In the end, when you resell it, you will be selling a car that is 2 years older. To the future buyer, it doesn't matter that it was new in 2015 and you have low miles. It will be cross shopped with other 2013 model vehicles and priced accordingly. Your KBB value will be lower. Insurance payouts in the event of a total will be lower. You'll miss out on any of the upgrades that came in the newer models (2014 head unit, knee pads, shark fin come to mind).
If you really wanted a 2013 then get a used car, you'll save thousands because the original owner took the depreciation hit. I bought my 2014 used, with 4500 miles on it for 20,000. It was 6 months old, yet I'm ahead of the depreciation curve by quite a bit.

I know not all people buy cars looking ahead at the resale value (I do because I rarely keep a car for longer than 2 years). The only car I have ever lost money on was a used 2002 S2000 (quite a bit too :/). Everything else was either equal or I made money. I typically buy cars at the lowest interest rate possible for the longest time possible with 0 down. This means I have almost no money out of pocket at time of purchase besides tax and registration, and that money can make more money for me while I am paying the vehicle off. Overall, payments are low because of 72 months, I barely pay any interest (banks are losing money on my loan), and all is good. Only way to mess it up is 1) buy a shitty car that tanks in value, before it tanked in value, or 2) crash/damage your car or put so many miles on it that you outpace the market value of the vehicle versus loan payoff.

And this car didnt tank in value? It went down to 19k after a year of owning it...

All cars are depreciating assets, not investments. That's why I said I would recommend buying used. If he insists on buying new, then the lesser of the two evils is the 2015.
A 2014 new was around 25-26k. Six months later, I was able to purchase at 20k. That 5-6k hit is equivalent to depreciation over 2-3 years. So that means in 2017, my car should be selling for around 19k. If that is the case, then the 1000 lost, spread over almost 3 years is ~$27 for me to drive this car per month (More or less equal). If I keep the car pristine, which I will, and am able to sell over market value, then I could potentially make money, or come out completely even. Gas cost, insurance cost, mod cost, all all extraneous items not included in the calculation, as you would be spending that on another vehicle regardless. Mods especially are a never-get-it-back proposition unless you part out, have mods that are desirable, and have high resale.

If you want an example of tanking value, a 2006 Mercedes SLK 55 AMG new was ~$75k, and I bought one in 2011 for 18k. That car reached the bottom of its depreciation curve, and I sold it in 2014 with 30k more miles on it, for 17k. That is definition of tanking value (All AMG cars tank in value).