Stiff to engage 1st/reverse from a stop after clutch install
 

I just recently installed an FX400 clutch/flywheel package in my FRS.

After doing so, I noticed it was more difficult to get into reverse/1st when stopped. It does this regardless of if its warm or cold. Trans fluid is Pentosin MTF2. Otherwise the trans setup is stock.

I have heard that insufficient lubing of the clutch disc spline can cause this. I did put some lube on, but mainly on the TOB/sleeve it slides on. I didn't put much on the splines as I didn't want it to fling off onto the clutch disc.

The pedal engagement point is fairly high currently. Could having excess pressure on the pressureplate's fingers when clutched in cause this? I'm not sure if its a clutch adjustment issue or if its the lack of sufficient spline grease.

The gears are also a bit difficult to engage near redline especially when flatfoot shifting. I figure the two issues are connected.

In one instance, at a stop in a parking lot (engine/trans warm), I wasn't able to shift into reverse at all from a stop. It was locked out. I had to engage a forward gear, then go back to shifting into reverse and it slid in. You can feel engaging 1st/reverse from a stop that there is resistance putting the shifter into the position you're trying to move it.

Any ideas or similar experiences?

Thanks!

Sounds like a dragging clutch...that's all I got.

Back when I was into DSMs, dragging clutches often caused similar issues, but usually the cause was insufficient extension of the clutch slave. From the feel of where the engagement point is on mine, it seems like I'm overextending it if anything.

The trick on DSMs to check for this was to turn off launch control, start the car on a level surface, clutch in, shift into first, and rev to ~ redline. If the car creeps forward ever so slightly, the clutch is dragging.

I may turn off the launch limit (or just make it = to redline) and try this quickly to rule it out, but usually the clutch drag is caused by not pushing the slave far enough to full disengage the link between the gearbox and the flywheel.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Yep both ideas sound 100% plausible. If your engagement point is high then I'd expect you're getting plenty of throw. I doubt the leaf springs are causing the drag even if flexed a bit to far, I'd be suspect of other noises if that were happening. Spline lube makes sense, but only if it were completely dry or catching on burs, even a super thin film will still provide lubrication.

I'd say test it with the near-redline rev with the clutch in to see if you detect any movement, and maybe slowly engage the clutch to see if it's slightly engaging earlier than you think. Also try shifting with partial clutch travel to rule out excessive movement.

It could be a screwy tolerance from manufacturing.
Side anecdote- A friend of mine bought a Spec clutch that had a pressure plate that was machined 1/4" too deep for his 2000-ish A4, leaving just barely enough clamping force for break-in. After a few days it slipped like crazy and Spec only offered to replace the clutch. My buddy had to pay for installation twice, thanks to terrible QA from the manufacturer.

Clutchmasters suggested I check the clutch adjustment. I did this today as per the video DIY here http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

At the suggested clutch pedal position of barely lower than the brake pedal in the video above, things seem to behave exactly the same as initially. This engagement point is considerably closer to the floor and while there is still the same blocked out feel of the gears from idle in N to 1st/reverse, being able to engage gears without grinding still seems to suggest the original problem wouldn't have been clutch drag from insufficient slave cyl travel.

I tried a bunch of adjustments ranging from the suggested one to the pedal WAY above the brake pedal. Nothing changed with any of this, as far as curing the difficulty putting it in gear.

What I did notice though (I did this in my garage where I could hear sounds reflecting off the walls easily) was when clutched in, when you'd go to put the shifter into any gear, you could actually feel the spot where the shifter hesitated to be pushed forward. When pushing up against this "hesitation point" you could hear a very very quiet faint whirling noise coming from the clutch area.

I'm thinking that maybe it could be the clutch disc binding on the spline after all (from not enough lube applied). Sucks I have to pull the gearbox to find out for sure lol.

I'm going to try the free rev thing here first. If it is the binding issue with the spline, it probably would creep forward while free reving, so stay tuned... lol

Bleed your slave cylinder.

I'm not going to lie, I'm currently experiencing the same thing. I have an ACT clutch. Didn't do it immediately. For me started 5000 miles after installing the clutch.

I tried bleeding it the old fashioned way, adjusting hte clutch pedal, messing with the reverse lockout plate and it still does it.

I may use a vacuum pump this time to bleed the clutch. After that I may have to pull the gearbox out to check :(

I've been having the same problem with an Exedy stage 2 for a couple months. It was initially fine after install then it got to a point where it's definitely dragging. On a flat surface with no brake, putting it into first gear makes car push forward a tiny bit. It often requires a couple tries to get it into any gear from stop.

In my case, my mechanic has already taken it out once to regrease things. The pedal has been adjusted and the fluid has been bled. What else is there?

Here's what mine looked like before reinstalling the trans. Looks like it was a bit on the dry side of things.

I'm pulling the trans tonight.

http://i60.tinypic.com/mmeov9.jpg

That's your proof the disc is still dragging. The whirring sound is most likely gear noise from the input shaft spinning down to a stop when you engage a gear; it stops because the output shaft is stopped. I can't remember exactly how the 86 tranny is designed, but it may be the gears between the input and intermediate shafts that will spin with the engine when the clutch is engaged in neutral.

Ive been doing some searching, and seems like lubing the input shaft splines is debated. yes, no, sometimes, never...

That sucks...

@alpine @marcoaferrer......

It's a weird problem and it sucks more it seems its not brand related, since ACT/Exedy/CM are having the issues

Seeing how it's so widespread, I wonder if manufacturers are just resourcing and renumbering clutches from other cars, and the issues may be arising from slightly different hydraulic systems... For instance, if the car(s) these clutches are originally designed for use a system that provides X throw at the slave, but the 86 system produces Y throw, it may just be too little throw... Just a thought.

Ok, so I dropped the gearbox, and cleaned the input shaft spline with a wire brush, as well as the clutch spline. I cleaned it then with brake cleaner, and lubed with white grease.

Since driving the car a bit, it seems the shifting is a bit better into 1st from a stop. It feels pretty smooth now. That said, I raised the launch limiter to redline, and with the car in first gear, clutched in, when holding the revs at redline for a couple seconds, the car would start to creep forward.

Can someone else try this and tell me if theirs creeps? On past cars I've owned this would indicate an unacceptable amount of clutch drag, but I'm not sure with the subaru setups.

If no one else is getting creep, I figure the Clutchmasters flywheel's step height must be a bit too tight. Is that even possible on a single stepped flywheel like the FRS uses?

Ugh...

I drove the car a bit more, it seems to shift well now. The car only creeps forward at 7k rpm+ in first clutched in after about ~ 3-4 seconds. Seems like it has a very very small amount of drag still. I bled the clutch and adjusted in a bit more throw on the slave.

Going to the track tomorrow so I'll get a chance to see if it requires any more tweaking.

How did you do that?

If you jack the rear wheels up off the ground, you should be able to put it into any gear with the clutch pushed in and the wheels should not spin. If the wheels spin when you put it into gear with the clutch pushed in, then something is dragging.

Humm...

So I dropped the gearbox out and cleaned up the clutch disc spline and input shaft spline, lubed them (see pic), and popped the gearbox back in.

http://i59.tinypic.com/nyg2zb.jpg

I then bled the clutch slave to be sure. New 2013 car, but hey, can't hurt.

I then set the clutch pedal about even with the brake pedal for slave throw, with sufficient freeplay at the top, and test drove the car.

It seems like no matter what I do the clutch still drags a bit.

I was at the drag strip today, and I played with the clutch adjustment A LOT. To be able to rev the car to redline and have no clutch drag with the shifter in the first gear position while clutched in, I had to raise the pedal about 1/4-1/2 an inch above the level of the brake pedal.

This seemed to fix the creep forward while on throttle on a level surface. However, no matter what I do for adjustment, the car still creeps ever so slightly forward when you clutch in and engage 1st. Just at idle. It's obviously still dragging in this condition from a clutch engaged in neutral to clutch disengaged in first/reverse etc.

I don't know what else to try. I've dropped the gearbox twice now, have adjusted the pedal position from bottom to top to both extremes, and nothing seems to make the clutch not drag slightly.

The effects at the track are hard shifting, grindy into 4th etc.

I'm going to ask Clutchmasters if they have any last resort ideas before I toss the OEM flywheel/clutch back in to see if it behaves fine again. I have a suspicion the tolerances on the Clutchmasters unit could be out...

Here's what I managed with some not so great shifting

http://oi57.tinypic.com/264jasl.jpg

Mine did the exact same thing with both of my CM clutches. The odd thing is that it didn't do it right away with the second one. I've tried adjusting the pedal to no end, I even made progressively longer push rods for the slave. Nothing worked. I'm thinking the disk or the throw out bearing is cocking sideways slightly causing it to bind and not slide far enough and the slave can't overcome it to push it further.

You may have overstroked the clutch. Yes it's a real thing. Look it up on YouTube.

I'm havin the same issue on my fx300. It's taken all the joy out of the car. Gonna try the adjustment after work, but hopefully u find a real answer Bc burning an oem clutch from being boosted almost seems like a better option as of now

I'm aware of this issue, my friends have to be careful of it with their twin disks. I have tried adjusting it to the point where it was barely releasing and it wasn't any better. If u use a mirror u can look at the fingers through the fork hole and as far as I can tell they're not over extended.

So what's your plan Dipstik-sportech?

I'm going to drop the trans and pop the original clutch back in to see if everything is good again. I've been talking to a guy at Clutchmasters, and he'll RMA the clutch for me for them to inspect if the OEM clutch reinstall fixes everything.

If a replacement from Clutchmasters won't fix anything though....

Does anyone have an FX400 who's redlining all gears with smooth shifting?

Raising the clutch mostly fixed mine. Imma raise it a lil more and do better fluid should fix the rest

Raising the clutch made mine better, but its still dragging, and a dragging clutch isn't a happy one. Fluid did nothing on mine.

I have motul 600 fluid and a stainless line, I've replaced the slave, bled the crap out of it. Nothing has 100% fixed it. Adjusting the pedal way high seemed to help a bit but it's still difficult to engage a gear at a stoplight for example. I wish I still had my stock clutch so I could try it.

hmm. i did the rev drag test and it didn't move anymore for mine. maybe i raised it more or the fx 350 is just that different

600? I've seen 300 gear, but i don't see 600...

In the hydraulic system not the trans sorry lol

I'll post up once I get mine back in. What a bunch of screwing around.

I installed the new clutch and flywheel, then dropped the gearbox to put more lube on the input shaft, and now I'm about to drop it a third time to put the stocker back in, with an inevitable 4th time after hopefully getting a resolution on the clutch itself.

Ridiculous.

Off topic here, did you ever finish the is 3.73 diff? I always thought if I went fi I would go with a similar setup.

Yes sir I did

My Exedy Stage 2 has taken a turn for the worse. At first it was only annoying, having to attempt to engage a gear twice each time from a standstill. In the past few days more often than not it isn't letting me get into any gear from a stop without panicked flailing around because I'm in traffic.

When it does this, I've found I can apply light pressure to putting it in first gear, and the car will start to roll forward surprisingly quicker than you'd think. Once the dash reads about 2km/h it will go into gear.

So to avoid this mess, I've resorted to always putting it in 1st before coming to a stop at a light, then just holding my foot on the clutch. It sucks, but it's the only way I can drive it.

Much like the rest of you, I don't know what to do at this point. It's already been back out for a regreasing. Fluid has been bled, tranny fluid has been replaced and pedal has been adjusted out.

What I'm wondering at this point is if it's a problem with the car (slave or such) that some of us have, or if these manufacturers are reusing a part that is close enough for our car but maybe not exactly right. Throw in some variation in tolerances and we get this problem.

Just a thought, have you checked your input shaft bushing/bearing in the flywheel for binding? My trucks clutch had to be replaced because this bushing shit the bed and caused hard shifts and block shifts from neutral. It got so bad that I I had to shut it off, put it into gear then I could drive away. Also, IMO my opinion adjusting your clutch to at or below the brake pedal will cause the clutch to drag because all your doing is reducing the pedal stroke which is effectively limiting the travel of the throwout bearing thus probably causing the clutch to drag, especially if it's new and has a lot of material on it.

OR..... not even close enough.

Clearly there is a problem with the stackup dimensions of the clutch, disk, pressure plate combo.

Either the pressure plate is not pulling out far enough or the disk is set back too far and is dragging on the flywheel even when the clutch is disengaged.

My clutch is starting to do this and I'm pissed off to no end... 3rd diff clutch that's been on my car...

I'm looking at OS Giken among others now.

My clutch is coming back out next week. I'm going to mail it back to Exedy for testing and check that everything still works fine with my stock clutch in the meantime.

For everyone having problems, it would be great if you called your manufacturer's support line if only to make them aware that people are having issues. For all I know, I'm the only one giving Exedy a hard time.

Since this issue seems to be happening after some time and not right away for most people (I think,) is it possible that it's the slave cylinder or another part besides the clutch assembly? Maybe a part is being stressed and is failing at different rates on different cars. Just a shot in the dark. Maybe I'll know more once my stock clutch is back in.

So I took the car apart again to swap the stock clutch and flywheel in, but found that the clips for my throw out bearing were damaged. Here's a video of the throw out bearing. I checked the OEM one and it does the same....so I guess it's normal and some kind of auto centering setup?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZiilzaDVWs"]Frs clutch tob - YouTube[/ame]

The CM one has the OEM part num on the back of it just like the stocker. Both of the ones I have seem to be indentical subaru oem units. Is the side to side movement in the video normal?

Same issue with my ACT setup, had an engine rebuild and got the clutch looked at at the same time. Worked good for awhile but its back to old tricks again.

I have noticed that if from a stop you depress the clutch pedal and wait about 20 secs before attepting to engage a gear it will slide in.

Is this the same for anyone else?

Centerforce acting the same. Was great for a few thousand miles, now giving me a hard time engaging from a stop. Shifts like butter and slams gears when moving.