Controlling Oversteer?
 

Definately know I need to take this to a parking lot to practice, I was on a backroad with some hairpins with traction and stability control off, trying to get ti to slip a little in the hair pins in Second.

I was very successful doing this but felt maybe the hairpin was done at too low, I was only entering at about 35-40 km/h, no e-brake of course and I have new ZR tires 205/45R17's that grip pretty hard.

I will definately not be shy to admit I'm new to all of this, this is my first sports style car, my first car was a Volvo 850 Turbo but that was fwd and very forgiving, not that the BRZ isn't but its obviously alot more of a machine and rwd.

So Going around the corner like this twice I tried to control the oversteer, reverse steering and adding gas, and I jsut found the tail went way to far out and then went into ocilation, which obviously makes you panic when it does that naturally so would have to quickly go to brake and clutch.

I'm looking to get most out of the car and control it to my best ability, so any advice would be awesome, obviously I need to find a empty parking lot without alot of attention so I can get wheels skidding a little bit to practice.

I'll be a mature adult and say go to a track.


BUT


Go find an empty parking lot, or wait for winter.
Personally I find this car tricky to "drift". You need to already be above 5k rpm if you want to mash the gas to get a slide going. Otherwise you need to dump the clutch. Moderate the throttle input, as well as the steering. Don't crank the steering to full lock and go full throttle. You'll either spin, or it could snap back, and since your wheel is cranked over... well... hello ditch.


Start small.
Be patient.
And be prepared for anything.




Honestly, I found this car impossible to drift. The other day though I tried the pedal dance and it changed the car completely.
Don't even search the pedal dance for now. Practice a bit first.

You need to be smooth and predictive. Personally I find these cars oversteer way too much stock, and even after modding mine it feels too oversteery at lower speeds.

Are you trying to drift? or are you trying to control oversteer during grip driving?

I'm trying to control oversteer during grip driving I.E without Traction control on though, so I'm not limiting power in sharp corners. Which I imagine its the proper thing to do.

I'm not trying to drift the car, of course the comes with it, but I imagine one comes with the other to some degree

if you're grip driving, you shouldn't be oversteering much if at all. Make sure you're taking the right line. From my understanding, if it's a flat hairpin, you'll most likely want to take a very late apex.

If you're on a public street with little/no run-off areas, I would leave traction control on. You can see the light buzzing on your dash when it activates. A good first step would be practicing applying as much power coming out of a corner as you can without tripping the light.

The trick will be rolling on the power gently (e.g., squeezing a lemon) starting at apex, while unwinding the steering. The better you are at doing this, the more throttle you'll be able to apply without triggering traction control.

It's important to get the basic concept down first. Once you get the hang of that, then experiment with sport mode or TC/VSC off (the latter, preferably at a track). Note: if you turn everything off, make sure you are ready to countersteer and do not lift.

The good thing about leaving TC/VSC on or in sport mode while you're first learning is it will save you before you put your car into a tree or ditch on a public road. But you can still visibly see the light when it activates, so it's a good learning tool.

I think he means he is trying to induce oversteer to practice correcting it. That way when it happens to him unexpectedly during grip driving, he can react properly.

The quickest way around the corner will be without loss of traction(AKA oversteer), but I do agree that it's something that should be practiced if you plan to drive at the edge of traction. Everyone misjudges corners, road surfaces, tire temperatures, etc occasionally and controlling oversteer is really quite simple in our cars once you're used to it.

Personally I never felt comfortable with it until I had some time on a skidpad where I learned that my corrections were too unsmooth to maintain control. If there's a local track nearby or autocross group I'd suggest you reach out and ask how they can help. Most organizations would be all for you finding the limits of your car in a safe, controlled fashion.

A few things:

You're in Canada - are the tires Summer tire or all season? Bc if they're Summer rubber, you'll find out pretty soon about that back end passing you even on a straight road.

Second - did you say "brake & clutch" when the back end got loose?! Don't do that, just don't. Unless you can somehow control which wheel you are applying braking to - oh, like the stability control does which you've turned off! Braking while in an oversteer will likely cause the back end to swing around even faster. You can ease off the gas but depending on the situation I wouldn't suggest lifting fully. You'd just be shifting weight around rapidly and causing the car to be more out of sorts.

Counter steering should be done smoothly but also at the proper speed. The back end steps out quickly, you react quickly. It steps out slowly, you counter slowly.

The car is nicely balanced for "drifting" but you need the right tires too. Some times have lots of grip and then none. Other tires lose grip more gradually so you feel the back end start to slide and you have lots of time to control it. The problem with super grippy tires is that when they give out, there's usually little warning, and you're cornering at a decent clip.

Practice in the rain, on WIDE roads or parking lots, AWAY from other cars or objects you can hit - including curbs. Anticipate that you'll spin the car and make sure doing so wouldn't hit anything. If there's a chance of going off the road, hitting another car, etc, find a different spot to practice.

Car control is important. Knowing how your car will react and having the experience to change your input without the need to think about it is important for when you need this skill. (snow, etc)

In the UK you can buy car-control tuition days. 2-on-1 & 4-on-1 days are good for generic tuition, but for much more focused tuition 1-on-1 is best but expensive. I absolutely love these days & have a favourite tutor I make repeat visits too.

Last time I was with a guy wanting to learn drifting but I'm more about handling correction etc. He tied this together with trying to get me mastering balancing a car out using the throttle & brake in unison mid-corner. Advanced stuff & hard but immensely rewarding on the 10-20% of times I actually get it right.

I drove this car in about 4 or 5 winter storms and about 3 to 5 hours each in NYC/Pennsylvania and Upstate NY. This is all with the stock tires and with the nannies on.

Its doable but I learned a lot about oversteer. I never spun i guess thanks to Gran turismo. Ye sure you can wait till winter in an empty parking lot or on your daily commute. I wouldnt suggest it though. I was scared all the time not for me but others around me. What if i spun and hit another car and caused something really really bad.

I acutally havent taken off the traction control system since i got the car. I do even with all seasons Michelin sports lose the rear end at times but only when driven really hard(high rpms) to the speed limits of the city/town.

all i can say is practice. even experienced drivers panic and step on driving. they just knew what would happen ahead so car can be controlled.

when winter comes and snow, go find empty parking space and practice, it will be much easier than doing on dried condition road.

Sounds like you experienced a baby tank slapper if you are describing the "oscillation". You have correctly figured out what you need to do. Now you just need to practice.

Check out this thread and in particular the Chris Harris video in the thread, a guy who knows how to drive sideways:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74169

Ironically, less grip makes this easier to learn up to a point. In winter we can play around with this car not using full throttle and explore the limits of drift angle before the car goes "over the top" and spins out. The correct technique to drift a car is just short of spinning out.

On wet roads this is a bit trickier but still easier than on warm dry road.

On dry road it helps if there is a little gravel, sand or even dust on the road surface.

A full tank slapper involves oversteer in one direction, towards the outside of the bend, and over correction to control the drift angle which causes the tires to bite and kick the car in the opposite direction. Do this abruptly enough and the car will actually oversteer in the other direction which in the middle of a bend can be very disconcerting.

It takes coordination of the throttle and the steering angle to initiate, catch and hold the correct drift. If you overcorrect by backing out of the throttle you will experience that oscillation effect. If you over correct by winding off steering lock too quickly as the car comes back at you then you can actually induce the oscillation.

Smooth coordination between the steering angle changes and the throttle are the secret.

In the old days racing cars had to be drifted to be quick because the tires were no good. Nowadays a drift is for fun only, and for learning car control skills in case you end up in an unplanned oversteering attitude. Drifting is slow and fast drivers do not do it any longer.

Also a hint: elevation. Flat surfaces are predictable. If you're driving downhill, that back end will come out faster and further and quickly be a handful to correct; while driving up hill is the opposite - quite easy. The back end will come out a little bit with some coaxing and go right back in line with small amounts of steering and throttle correction.

So, if you want to know it's like to spin or nearly spin a car, take a turn from one street to another that is sloping downhill. The turn will possibly be banked "the wrong way" due to the physics involved, helping your car rotate. Turn the car heading uphill and the car won't want to spin and basically just giving it slightly less throttle will stop the back from sliding.

Note, in any car, in any spin: steer (and look) in the direction you want to go.

Ya uber, basically. I've had sometimes simular happen when I hit black ice on my fwd, like the car violently tail swings left and right.

I went around, started to reverse steer, apply smooth power and had my tail come around on me too fast, and steering wheel starts to over power you. No choice but to brake when its going this out of control, not to mention ya not being smart being on a narrow backroad when trying this.

I won't be pushing it stupidly anymore because ya that risk of bailing it in the ditch etc not being worth it. All the same I do want to learn how to control it very least.

And yes that was case with both these hairpins, poorly angled they were flat, but on very steep road, once going up and once going down, down lost control faster and was worst.

I'm not looking to drift the car, I won't be disabling the traction control again in public corners or at least both to try to prevent this, just trying to learn how to go around a corner, and if I say don't do it perfectly and over zealously attempt the corner, forget apexes this is a public road, sometimes you don't get the option when its a blind corner and you don't want to go nose deep into a mini-van.

Re: Apex. You can apex within your lane. In fact, please do. If you are on a windy road, why cross the center line to straighten out the curves? Isn't the whole point of being on that road bc it has curves?

Anyhow, I choose my apexes or double apex on my daily commute, in a flow of cars, at speed limit. Just practice reading the road and where the apex is and how that sets you up for the next turn. It sure makes the daily grind more fun. :)

Re Apex, yes, yes. Practice this skill every time you drive. Stay within the lane markings (the law requires it and doing so improves your driving skills) but follow the proper line even though your speed doesn't require it. That way, when the ticket risk drops away and the traffic and other road conditions permit you will be able to let er rip.

Years ago Jackie Stewart (who knows a thing or two about smooth and quick driving) had a street driving video in which he demo'd the "ball test" (not what you're thinking, bravery has nothing to do with street driving). Basically, you learned proper car control with a heavy rubber ball in a large dish fixed to the hood. Drive as fast as you can around a marked circuit without allowing the ball to escape over the rim of the dish.

The point was that to be quick you must be very smooth, reduce the peak g as much as possible while still maximizing speed. Only by reducing peak g (and the rate at which g climbs or recedes) can you get the most out of your tires.

Practice smooth low g driving whenever you can, that means following the "line" even on your morning commute. Try it, you'll enjoy your drives in this car so much more.

I do apex my corners, have been playing racing games since I was a little kid, gran turismo 1&2 lol.

I know how to follow driving lines and corners; issue I had like I said was I got bit really hard when I tried to let the rear end out, flat out, scared the shit out of me lol, having it violently thrash like that, when I've done it on snow/light gravel it feels completely in control, but when I did it there just it wans't in control at all, on asphault the back end went far faster out of my control then I could get ahold of it.

Did I mat the gas too much in second, crank too hard? Just need to learn the balance of the two I'm assuming, either way I won't be turning off VSC totally off again, and just sport mode on perhaps.

You're never going to know EXACTLY how much traction you have in any given curve the first time you drive that curve. Debris, road material, moisture, angle, counter angle etc. are a turn by turn thing. I would suggest you go to a perfectly flat place away from people and cars and just make your own corners until you understand how the car reacts to what you do.
You'll never know what the car can and can't do until you take it too far! :)

You'll always need to be correcting for something in the real world. A track can be learned, but the real world is just too big for that! LOL

Also, "try using one gear higher than you think you need". I had that tape back in 1987. :D I don't know what all this oversteer talk is about. The BRZ understeers quite a bit. I have yet to get the tail out for all my cornering antics, but then I'm on Pilot Super Sports, am smooth, and use higher gears.

The stock tires are horrible, not "fun" as the mags would have you believe. They feels like shit the minute you turn the wheel--long before the tail would ever come out.

Are you driving with traction control and VSC off? On stock tires the back end was insanely easy to get out and on 235 Pilot Super Sports it's still fairly easy if I try or misjudge a corner by a little. The tiniest bit of trail breaking into a corner will eliminate all understeer.

Play in a large open empty parkinglot in the rain. Only way to learn is to feel it.

I think a completely empty parking lot is the worst place to learn. It gives you the false idea that you have all the space in the world to correct yourself. Find some cones and don't be afraid to hit them.

Empty parking lot is the most safe place:

[ame]http://youtu.be/_UISfUybSNM[/ame]

"George, George, George of the Jungle - Watch out for that tree!"

*thunk*

Book yourself some time at a car control clinic, if there are any in your area. A skid pad and cones are the only good way to learn this stuff. If there aren't any driving schools remotely nearby, then see if you can get permission to use a deserted parking lot or something. Bring some cones along and set up a course so you have some fixed reference points to look at.

Autox can be helpful for learning handling too, but less so if you're trying to learn how to slide, since drifting is generally discouraged (if you're sliding around and bowling tons of cones over, you slow the event down for everybody).

That parking lot doesn't look empty to me... it has a load of pillars in it ;)... oh and the driver found one ::bellyroll:

Yes. But after 10 minutes I look at the dash and the lights are gone. Is the system turning itself back on? If so, shame on Subaru. But I'm fine with it on, doesn't intervene with my driving.

I'm only talkin back roads driving here. I don't brake into corners. I accelerate into and thru them.

You're not fully turning it off then. Accelerating through corners with traction control off is a very, very bad idea if you're driving anywhere near the limit of what the car can do.

Yeah you have to turn it off with the car stationary or it will come back on in like 10 min. I'm thinking of just pulling the ABS fuses to disable everything.