Test drove a 2014 BRZ...not worth $20,000
 

I believed the hype about the Subaru BRZ / Toyota FRS models. Being a car enthusiast myself, who drives a 2004 Subaru Forester XT (stock auto) and a Turbocharged Toyota Soarer making 600hp (manual transmission), I was interested in the BRZ as a new project car I can turbo charge and daily drive.

Why was I so interested?

I like the "glued-to-the-ground" driving feeling of the Subaru boxer engine layout (i.e. low center of gravity) in my turbo Forester and am always impressed how well it grips during turns for being so high off the ground. Plus, the lighter weight of this '04 Forester XT and faster acceleraton than the newer heavier XT's left me with a good overall impression. :)

So, when I learned this Subaru BRZ also has a boxer engine with direct injection, better gas mileage than either of my cars, cheaper maintenance via 2-less spark plugs than my Toyota Soarer + easier oil change with oil filter locaion, is ~600 pounds lighter (-700lbs compared to my Toyota Soarer 2JZ car) with a better chassis and lower center of gravity, a lighter RWD drivetrain, and Trunk with fold-down rear seats utility, I thought this new ft86 was a recipe for perfection.

Naturally, I test drove a 2014 Subaru BRZ (6 speed manual transmission) with less than 20 miles on the odometer... And Boy was I disappointed during the test drive. Here is why:

DISLIKES
1. Underpowered: The fact that Subaru / Toyota put such a horribly WEAK output motor in this car and chassis is sacrilege. It ruined the driving experience for me big time. It was like giving an obese person ballerina soft-thin shoes and expecting them to run a marathon with those no-pad-like skins on their feet. In this BRZ, I could not get the car to "run" to my liking with such a weak-output motor. This is SACRILEGE Subaru/Toyota, you hear me?! :suicide:

2. Sloppy Transmission Shifting Feel: The transmission would not engage or disengage easily during differnt rpms' and loads that were not the car's natural shift points. So, I had to rev-match the engine for smoother shifts. I was expecting a better quality and smoother shift experience from such a nice looking and high priced car (dealer new price = $30,995). I question anyone's integrity saying the stock-original Subaru BRZ 6-speed manual transmission is the best shifting transmission they've ever used. LOL! :bonk:

3. Suspension Noise: Everytime I or the Dealership Salesman got into and out of the car there was a very audible Creaking sound from under the car. Plus, taking any turn in a spirited fashion that induced some body roll resulted in a loud crunching / grinding noise coming from the wheel well area under the most stress.

4. Bouncy ride above 35mph: Although the steering response felt quick in the BRZ, the overall ride felt unnecessarily bouncy on the street when going above 35mph. In this stock form, I don't think it would be as comfortable as my Forester or modified Toyota Soarer for long road trips.

5. Less Grip and Rear-End Losing Traction during Turns: The rear end of the car would lose traction on any spirited-driving street turn (Yes, traction control was ON). This was a let down because I expected this car to grip the turns better without losing traction. In fact, after the test drive I took my Subaru Forester XT on the same turn and achieved a higher speed +7mph with no loss of traction. My "old" Forester SUV gripped the turn better much to my surprise! To be fair, I was not aware of the tire pressures in each car so this could also be a contributing factor. Nevertheless, the tendency of the BRZ's rear wheels to lose traction on a turn sooner than I expected was disappointing.

6. Reliability problems: The reported gasket-material leaks from new BRZ motors mentioned by the honest Salesman and the reported AVCS failures from the Subaru / Toyota Scion community certainly didn't inspire me with confidence that this car would be as reliable as I hoped...especially boosted from 320whp[93 pump] to 400whp[e85]. :(

7. Cramped Interior Feeling during entry & exit: After adjusting the seat and steering wheel for the perfect driver position, my knees would always hit the dash part next to the door as I exited the vehicle. I had to twist my hips to avoid hitting this part of the BRZ whereas in my Toyota Soarer and Subaru Forester, I can slide out in comfort.


Despite these negatives about the BRZ, here is what I liked about the car:


LIKES
1. Steering Response and Feel: The initial turn-in is GREAT in this car and just made me want to approach turns at higher speeds than I ordinarily would in other cars. Also, the steering wheel ergonomics are fantastic and the ability to telescopically adjust it forward/back/up/down rocks. :burnrubber:

2. Driver position: It seems well thought-out in this car and truly felt like a "driver's car" the minute I sat in it and gripped the steering wheel. I had good visibility of the road in front of me and everything seemed well within arms reach.

3. Tire Pressure Sensors: ..Great to have these in a true Driver's car.

4. Driver Control: Although the rear-end of the car slides out too much for my liking on the oem tires/wheels, it was still very easy to control the skid and recover with almost-effortless steering input.

5. Conversation Quiet: I noticed some typical road-noise frequencies were not as audible in the BRZ as they are in my other 2 cars. It was ever-so-slightly easier to carry on a conversation with the passenger at highway cruising speeds although I could hear other noises outside this "conversation-like" frequency spectrum. So, it felt slightly quieter in this frequency range, but not-so-quiet hearing the suspension grinding noise on sharp turns and common road noise. I'm interested to see the results of a frequency spectrum analysis performed inside the car to see which sound frequencies are louder than others.

6. Seats: The front seats felt snug, comfortable, and secure.

Decision Time
Would I buy it for $30,000? Heck NO
Would I buy it for $20,000? no.
How about a used good condition BRZ or F-RS for $14,000? maybe.


Why do I think the BRZ / FRS is not worth even $20k? I just cannot ignore the "complete package" aspect of a car. If it's weak in a vital area, then why should I pay more for it?

From a "project car" persepctive, I've learned the less mods & money I put into the project car to achieve my goals, the sooner I get to enjoy the reward and put that extra money into fuel (for more driving fun) and weekend track events. Therefore, I have to succumb to the reality that cars like a used Mazda Miata MX5's (1 example) are a better value as a project car because one can purchase it for half the price of a used BRZ / FRS, turbocharge it, and still reap the benefits of a 300 pound lighter car than the BRZ / FRS while having spent less to get the desired performance.

I haven't ruled out the BRZ / FRS, but in stock form it just didn't "wow" me like the magazine and blog reviews said it would.

QUESTIONS for you modded BRZ & FRS owners
1. How much better does the Street handling GRIP improve on your FRS / BRZ's when you add say 17x9 rear wheels with 255 tires and 17x8 front wheels with 245 wide tires?

2. With the above tire and basic accompanying suspension mods (like coilovers and minimum bushings), how much better is the drive experience with a turbo kit making ~300-320whp on the street?

Well, I won't dive into the fact that most of your dislikes have been posted about numerous times, but I will answer your last question(s):

Those Prius tires are meant to be enjoyed. When I say that, I mean slide the shit out of them and then recycle them at a tire shop. As a matter of fact, fuck those tires.

I'm currently using a 17x9.5 setup with 235 tires. The tires probably aren't your cup of tea but even with a 235 series and a quality (Yokohama S.Drive) tire the difference is totally night and day. I'm also on coilovers and have toe arms and RLCAs to 'drop me' the right way and the car is absolutely on rails when I do my early morning drive home from base. I can take aggressive s-curves at 65mph+ and not spill my coffee. Awesome.

Power? I came from an SR20'd S13 and I was running OEM-like boost on a stock S15 turbo which means it was pretty conservative. Coming to this car was less of a bummer then I thought it would be. Would I prefer an S13 over this car now? Yes, but not because of the power...but because of the cost of parts. Like you said: you can build a Miata for half the price. The FRS suffers from 'new car' tax and the new car price paired with that should have been enough to scare me away yet here I am $5k+ in parts. Go with the Miata. Even if you find a used one for $14k I'd stick to something you can work on without breaking the bank every time you want something done. Everyone wants power nowadays and the only thing I can say is this: the FRS/BRZ is a driver's car and even without the power you can wear a shit-eating grin on your face with a lower(ed) center of gravity and good tires.


...but hey man you're from Texas and you probably want a V8 as a factory option hah.

EDIT: My other car is a 2005 Forester! AND YOU CAN'T JUST SAY 600HP SOARER AND NOT POST A FUCKING PICTURE.

I've owned my BRZ for 35,000 miles now and let me address a couple of your dislikes and maybe stem your concerns. This is in no way meant to be an attack on you.

1. In stock form yes, the car can be underpowered for some people. However even with just minor mods such as headers, exhaust and intake it makes a noticeable difference. With just intake and exhaust alone I made 30 extra horsepower and because the car is so light it definitely is noticeable and makes the car more enjoyable. Yes it's not neck snapping acceleration but if you want that then get a turbo. These cars have been proven to be able to handle 400hp on the stock engine internals with only a clutch upgrade. Other than that a simple set of headers has been proven to get rid of the notorious "torque dip" in the cars NA form.

2. I would not call the transmission sloppy...sloppy makes me think the shifter wobbles all over the place like a 1980's civic. It does not, the transmission is very stiff and does not like cold weather which is a pain. However 95% of problems with the transmission are fixed with two things. A simple fluid swap (most people here use Motul Gear 300 75w-90 Non-LS) and a little time. The transmission brand new is very stiff and requires some break in to get it shifting smoothly. I notice my transmission was noticeably smoother after the first 1,000 miles and after 35,000 miles (with about 33,000 miles on Motul Gear 300) now it is super smooth and I rarely ever miss a shift.

3. This is not normal...mine doesn't do this, ask to drive a different one.

4. Welcome to driving a sports car...the suspension will be stiff. It's not nearly as stiff as some sports cars I have ridden in.

5. The car comes with tires off a Prius stock on purpose for your drifting pleasure. Switch them out with a set of rims and some Max/Extreme Performance Summer Tires and you will have plenty of grip. I have 225/40 R18 Hankook Ventus V12's on my car and they grip like no ones business. I can't even break the tires lose anymore unless I REALLY try.

6. The reliability problems mostly concerned early models in the production line. They have been fixed for the most part and if you grab a 2014/2015 model you should not have any issues. That being said, I have one of the VERY first BRZ's (VIN Number 301) and I have never had an issue.

7. Yep, unfortunately this car is so low to the ground that is unavoidable. I've gotten used to it and I've found it much easier to get out of the car by rotating your legs out first so you're sitting 90 in the seat and then standing up. I am a moderately tall person at 6' tall. Unfortunately it's not as easy for everyone but you get used to it after a while.

Questions

1. As I said before....better tires change the car dramatically. If you want more grip, getting a set of good performance tires is pretty much the best and easiest thing you can do. The car came with Prius tires stock for a reason, to make the car drift happy and easy to drift. If you're more into the road and track portion of this car then swapping the tires out is a must.

2. It's a whole different monster, they best way to describe it is to just drive one. Ask in your regional forums if anyone in your area has a turbocharged version they would let you test. The people here are very friendly and I'm sure you could find someone willing to let you try theirs, or you could go to a local meetup and check them out. Don't know where you are located but there are tons of meetups in Texas! http://www.ft86club.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15

Iiiiiiiit's...TIIIME!!!

Why don't you just buy a C5 'Vette and turbo that?
If you went to the dealership without knowing the car wasn't a rocketship I'm not sure the car is for you.


Sure, in a straight line it could use 200hp more than it has. But on nice mountain roads it's amazing.


As far as your suspension problems, I've had the car three months and driven just about 10,000km and have never experienced this bumpy ride or squeaking sound.
I'm also not sure how you drive, but my rear end never comes out unless I'm pushing it hard during spirited driving and I'm still on stock tires

Adressing your dislikes:

1. if you can't live with the power, stop even thinking about it and move on. It is what is.

2. Um, haven't heard this from anyone. Maybe you aren't depressing the clutch all the way I dunno...

3. Again, haven't heard anyone have this issue. I'm assuming you don't weigh 500lbs so :iono:

4. They sell muscle cars that have plenty of HP and ride like a cloud on the street. Not going to get Porsche ride and handling at this price

5. Both cars understeer, if you are oversteering you probably need to relax your right foot.

6. What gaskets? Tail light gaskets only thing I heard of and that does not effect driving the car. The other problem I haven't heard of anyone having this issue recently, correct me if I'm wrong. Also I have a June 2012 BRZ and haven't had the issue.

7. Are you brollic or fat? I'm 220lbs of lard and no issues.

Addressing likes:

1. Agree

2. Agree

3. Now I know you are trolling.

4. Agree

5. :iono:

6. Agree

The car is an overall package. You get handling and they couldn't give big power at the same price. You can get a mustang but then you lose the handling. You have to weigh your needs with what is on the market. For me this car meets my needs and is the only car available for the price that does.

What do YOU want. Sounds like you need a muscle car.

First hi

That's very good, you know what you like and what you don't.
To be honest with you, the best you could do is:
1. Don't buy another car, that's even cheaper. Mod one you already have and only need minor modifications.
2. That been the case, the forester is the one to mod. Already 7mph faster on corners than the twins.
a. Need new seats (cobra, NRG, sparco)
b. Buy a suspension and adjust to do a little over steering and the 255 on front.
c. Maybe some brake pads

And keep a ton of cash for gas, track, tires...
There you go :thumbsup:

My 2p worth on your dislikes having driven an EU version -

1) It's a low capacity rev happy 4 pot. Exactly what were you expecting? Want monster torque? Go buy something with a turbo or a V8. In all honesty I find much over 175bhp/ton & really I'm beyond the point where I have to work with engine on the open road. At around 160bhp/ton the BRZ is very close to perfection & as it's a bit bellow my ideal figure I've got some room to tweak it's power output without wandering into the silly fast zone.

2) Sounds like the one you drove had problems, abused from cold badly driven etc?. Certainly the one I drove was better than my 1ers gearbox, that said it was at mile 14 when I climbed into it

3) See above. The one I drove was fine.

4) Standard OE dampers & miss-matched springs problem. Very few manufactures get it right. & normally I've changed springs &/or dampers to get proper composure on every car bought new.

5) This isn't an arcade car point & squirt car, this needs to be driven properly. When you learn about progression & smooth inputs there's loads of grip on offer. Tyres will make a huge difference and abused tyres aren't going to be particularly flattering to the chassis.

6) Unless the engine was woefully under tuned to begin with then adding more then 25% power and torque is going to cause issues which will need to be resolved if you want a reliable engine.

7) A small sports car doesn't have much space shocker!

Feed the troll boys he's hungry today.

STFU, you know you'd take a 2004 Forrester over a BRZ !

$14k is too much.. You can save $13.5k if you can find one for $500 !!!
Keep looking.. !

OP doesnt get it.

OP pointed out all the gasket and AVCS issues. The car it a ticking time bomb.

OP just lowered the resale value by fictionalizing all these issues on the interwebz.

OP can now go out and buy a used twin for less than $20K

OP made us all aware.that an old Forester XT is a MUCH better sports car than a twin.

OP couldn't wait to get on this forum to inform us of all the afformentioned "facts".

OP drives a RHD 600 HP car, finds the twins under powered.

People on this forum actually took the time to address the OPs concerns.

I think its more a case of they won't put a good amount of power thru the rear wheels of an affordable car for reasons of safety and avoidance of lawsuits. They always seem to put good power into front and 4WD cars (MS3, WRX, etc) at this price level so the kids are less likely to get into trouble.

If this car has no wow factor for you then you will never enjoy it, don't buy one.

The car is very expensive for what you get but the market for these cars is very limited so the engineering and development had to be amortized over a small output. Impreza is selling well at around 80,000 units as is the BRZ/FRS actually at around 20,000 units but one quarter the sales for a car with this much difference from the rest of Subaru's line up is going to be marked up more. Bear in mind that Mazda still makes money on its ancient MX-5 Miata selling well under 10,000 units per year.

If you appreciate what the car has to offer it is actually underpriced compared to its performance competition: the Porsche Cayman.

This is not the car for you. Get a used Dodge Charger.. Oh, and don't forget to boost it...

Cost savings because two less spark plugs? 40$ every 8 years is a cost savings?

Oil capacity? My turbo frs holds 8quarts. Thats more than a 2jz or a 1uzfe.

Summary: OP wants a new BMW M3 for the price of a thrashed Miata.

This is OP's only post? The trolling is strong... I can't believe you guys are bothering with serious replies.

:popcorn:

Ok after reading this thread I have decided I must sell my FRS for a Forester. But before I do, I must know this: Does it have TPMS like a true drivers car?

Brah what am I supposed to do. Beer in one hand, F5 with the other waiting for delivery to open :cheers:

GOD NO! If OP is complaining of a sloppy transmission, he'll absolutely hate the M3 stick shift... my god does it suck...

Hello, we're glad you've joined us at this board.

Our new-troll representative will show you around.

http://i.imgur.com/jrao9sh.jpg

Who in North America calls a Lexus SC400 a Toyota Soarer? Is that supposed to make the OP more legitimate because he comes up with the JDM name for a car?

I appreciate those of you with helpful feedback and welcoming me to the forum. Also, thanks for correcting on the oil capacity Reaper. I updated the original post to reflect that.

For the doubters, I'm 100% serious :).

This is my honest impression of the 2014 Subaru BRZ after test driving it via my local Subaru dealership and comparing it to the 2 cars I own and drive on a regular basis. I don't want to give up on the prospect of owning a BRZ sometime in the future, hence the reason I asked those 2 questions at the end of my initial post.

Sony, I like your recommendation about riding in a turbo brz / frs first to get a feeling of what this platform can really do. If I have time to hit my local Cars & Coffee this month, I'll give it a go. The real question is, what should I take to the meet: Turbo Forester or Turbo 2JZ Soarer?

dizzario, I don't mind posting a picture of my turbo 2jz modified "soarer," but not before I detail-clean and wax it first. Posting a dirty picture of it online feels...well...like sacrilege ;).

You will never post the picture or dyno sheet because it doesn't exist. If it did exist, you would already have pictures of this car.

If you do post a pic...I want a custard pie sitting on the hood so we know its yours.

I think you should sell your "Soarer" for a "Monte Carlo". Or as they call it in Japan, "The Kid Rock-mobile"

The reason for so many doubters is that you came across a little harsh for your first posting. Even your title smells of troll by insulting the car's worth. Unless you are using the tactic of ask a question - get zero responses, post something blatantly wrong - have a swarm of responses correcting you.

@iBoost...as you can see the community is full of, well, you get the idea.


Oh and don't you dare have an opinion about this car that isn't praise. As you can see you'll be blacklisted.

This guy belongs in one of those boats on wheels...what do you call it....oh yeah. Mustang! Don't feed the troll.

Yawn....

He does not think the car is worth $14K used. He clearly wants a car with lots of power and tons of grip. If he thinks the car is not worth $20K brand new and $14K used what is the point in even posting this thread? And there is certainly no point in telling him to go FI if he thinks a used one is not worth $14K. Clearly this is not the car for the OP. He should be looking at American Muscle. So post it on Facebook...

300-320 whp is faster than a 2013 boss 302 mustang. So, plenty for the street. and you'll be faster than a gt500 at the track (302 is about as fast as gt500 because it handles a bit better)

The point is this is the internet and if we're talking about fucking retarded threads on this forum this is definitely NOT the worst.

Defending the blasphemer, where's my pitchfork?

EXACTLY. While it's clear you have a sense of humor, this is the God's honest truth for the ****-riders who haven't owned another car before this...or maybe they drove a minivan.

Hey maybe the OP is right. This is a $10K car at best used and $15K new. I mean he makes a good point, right??

:bonk:

I completely agree about the lack of power - I initially felt that it was adequate. Not fast, but enough to have fun with. I autocrossed the car several times and the car just felt... gutless. I'm now in the process of selling it as I recently purchased an '06 Cayman S. It's like an FR-S, but with the whole power issue fixed. May be a good option to consider as they can now be had with low mileage for under $30K.

I remember my test drive in the 2013 BRZ was awesome. Sales guy let me hook in my phone and have some music playing. I got in and literally had no skills on how to drive it, redlined 1st gear and shifted through 2nd and 3rd. I felt high as a kite, I loved how smooth the engine felt when it was opened up all the way, and drove it back to the dealership. I was sold there already.

And yes things become apparent later on that let you down, like the tires have a limit that you learn really quickl and they're bad at autoXy, or you get tons of TC interference or pull a turn too quickly and risking a crash. Or that the engine doesn't make much torque and so you have to reserve your fun for downhill slopes. That's where the real fun is, trying to go as fuckin fast as you can shifting and gripping the wheel while fighting downhill gforces and managing your level of mechanical grip with the tires, and the car being so low and light as it is just sinks into the corner and shoots out of it.

I don't like the lack of power either. But this car can still go fast, not drag race fast but enough to get tickets and raise my insurance.

The price. That's a fair debate. Pros are that there are like 8 airbags in the car and has best in class crash rating. This IMO affects the cost considerably. Also the xenon headlights with headlight cutoff leveling. The high quality wheel design (compare that to base mustang wheels or.. base camaro steel wheels). There are plenty of upscale quality touches and design elements on the car to justify the price.

MY BRZ has never let me down. But then, I knew what I was buying and easily avoided being a dipshit expecting a supercar for under $30K.

Good luck selling your used FRS for more than 14k now that the truth is out. We're all doomed.