Suspension UPGRADE - Shock/Spring Pkg vs. Coilover System - Which to choose?
 

I want to upgrade my suspension so that I can run my car as a somewhat comfortable daily driver, but also be able to take it to track days every month or two and have it perform well. I think many of you would agree, keeping stock shocks and doing an upgrade like this: http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft-8...-kit-1152.html won't cut it for track at least. I have a few options in mind (see below) and I would really appreciate some constructive responses.

*I understand that yes it is non-adjustable vs. adjustable. Keeping that in mind I really have no idea how often I would actually adjust ride height realistically. If there is a better option than the ones I have listed below please offer the suggestion so I can take it into account. Thank you.

Would really like to hear from @Racecomp Engineering @CSG David @CSG Mike and @FT-86 SpeedFactory

1) Bilstein B8 Package(RCE Yellow) - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...llow-1421.html

2) Bilstein B8 Package(RCE Tarmac) - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...rmac-1422.html

3) Bilstein B8 Package(Pro-Kit) - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...-kit-1424.html

4) Bilstein B8 Package(Sportline) - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...line-1423.html

5) Bilstein B14 PSS Coilovers - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...vers-1216.html

6) Skunk2 Pro-C Coilovers - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/skun...vers-1725.html

7) KW V1 Coilovers - http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/kw-v...vers-1001.html

8) Fortune Auto V5 500 Series- http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/fort...lover-206.html

What should I go with?

What is your budget?

$1,400-1,500

I'll be ordering these in a week or so...

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/rce-...s-brz-797.html

http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Race...djustable-19mm

Then again, I have a slightly different outlook on performance goals, more of an OEM+

I'd point you towards the Bilsteins B8 + RCE Tarmacs. You'll reduce the amount of roll, squat, and drive... without compromising much ride quality and durability.

20mm drop will reduce wheel gap, and the spring rate will increase significantly (which it needs to, with the reduced articulation). From all indications, the B8 should have adequate range of damping to match a 5 kg/mm spring.

This guy provides an honest review of the setup, addressing most of my thoughts/concerns:
Link to thread

Those bars are huge. I put a 25mm front bar on my 2010 STi and that car was about 700 lbs. heavier. 19mm was the stock rear bar, I put that on the BRZ and couldn't keep traction control from going crazy.

If you've got really sticky tires, that's one thing. But those bars are overkill for street.

Everything's a compromise.

I have the Eibach sway bars fitted which are the same diameters as the RaceComp bars and while they certainly have flattened the cornering I can feel the cross talk at the front when hitting bumps on one side of the car. That's with 6k springs front and rear.

I have two recommendations; that really come down to what you want.

Bilstein B8 with Tein S-Tech springs maintain good comfort, keep (if not slightly enhance) the cars stock willingness to rotate, and close the wheel gap up - as I suspect that is a motivator here.

If you aren't worried about the wheel gap, I would recommend Bilstein B14.

You may want to consider the Bilstein B6 as well. Apparently they have similar rates to the B8 but with a standard length body (B8 has shorter body). If that's true, then the benefit in using B6 over B8 is that you'll get a little more droop...providing you use a spring that is captive on stock damper length of course. Plus the B6 is cheaper than the B8.

I thought the B8 is made specifically for springs that offer more of a drop than the stock ride height? So, wouldn't the B6 be less ideal if I were to get the RCE Tarmac (- .8") or Eibach Sportline (- 1.4")?

Also, what do you mean a little more droop? and "providing you use a spring that is captive on stock damper length of course"? If you could clarify in detail because I am not following due to my ignorance haha.

On Bilsteins site there is also this,

"What difference is there between BILSTEIN B6 Sport and BILSTEIN B8 Sprint shock absorbers? The BILSTEIN B6 Sport is a mono-tube gas pressure shock absorber designed to dampen wide-ranging vibrations very precisely. Where an oil shock absorber produces an oily foam and creates a spongy driving feeling after a very short distance, the BILSTEIN B6 Sport remains constant, precise and stable. The BILSTEIN B8 Sprint is a mono-tube gas pressure shock absorber specifically designed to be used with lowered vehicles with shorter stroke. It also offers the same advantages as the BILSTEIN B6 Sport shock absorber."

On another site....

B6 or B8 Sprint?
B6 - Ideal upgrade for standard dampers, all the benefits of B8, but standard length designed to work with standard ride height and lowering springs up to approx 30mm lowering (please note only a guide the key criteria is to ensure location of spring on droop)
B8 - Specially designed for lowered sport vehicles. It's a must when sports springs are used with lowering of 30-40 mm or more. Shortened unit ensures spring is correcly located and gives less droop and more predictable control of over/undesteer and sharper responses. (In some cases only B6 will be listed.)

I am learning - perhaps you could explain?

So RCE Tarmacs would work perfectly fine with the B6's but Eibach Sportlines would work better on the B8's?

If you have ever worked on a car with cut springs or very low drop... there's an amount of suspension extension (droop) that completely disengages the spring. It flops around and sometimes comes off of its perches.

Don't be that guy.

I've always been a fan of letting springs control body motion. Sway bars do an excellent job of leveling the car during roll, but in other situations, they can prevent each wheel from acting independently. Keep sizes reasonable, unless you're in an SCCA class that benefits from that loophole.

Regarding spring choice, you have alot of good options. Pick the ones that give you the amount of comfort you'll need for your driving habits.

B6 and B8 have similar valving, the differences are:

1. B8 (probably) have a shorter bumpstop up front to allow a little more bump travel. I can't 100% confirm this is true but I believe that it is.
2. B8 have a shorter overall extended length. This means less droop travel (extension) which isn't really a good thing.

For our RCE springs you can go either way, and with the B6s being cheaper it makes them a little more appealing. BUT if the B8s do have a shorter internal front bumpstop that is very helpful.

There's a couple people running the B8/RCE Tarmac combo with some reviews posted here. It's firm but very well controlled. It will be a very solid "set it and forget it" package that will last a long time. Even for me non-adjustable is kind of appealing.

Eibach Sportlines are IMO too low. More of a style spring whereas we focused on function first and even Eibach Pro-kit would be preferable from that standpoint.

Bilstein PSS coilovers are a solid option but use progressive springs which I don't prefer. Good quality set-up though.

Another option would be RCE T0 coilovers. Based on KW V1 but a little firmer and sport/track oriented. Same nice stainless finish and lifetime warranty.

- Andy

Thank you for the response! Regarding the RCE T0's - I noticed that stock it comes with 280/280 spring rates but there is a 350/350 option instead. How much more is the 350 being that the 280 are $1,699 starting?

Extra 200 bucks for the custom spring rates.

- Andy

Is it discouraged to run the RCE Tarmac on Stock Shocks? The Tarmac springs and Yellow springs are the same drop height correct? .8" each? I really like your philosophy behind spring rates, and although I wish it was a full inch drop, I understand why you made it .8" - I like aesthetics but prefer handling/performance over the look when it comes down to it.

I did some more researching with some 86ers who like to track, and from their feedback we concluded that the stock shocks are actually quite capable when paired with the appropriate spring, specifically, your rce yellows, swift and eibach pro kit.

Right now I have actually done a bit of a 180 for the time being and have decided to choose between these:

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft-8...-rce-1082.html

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft-8...rmac-1414.html

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/ft-8...wift-1357.html

In the future, say next year, THEN I may want to upgrade the shocks. What do you suggest if I go this route? I can be very analytically so i want to make sure I make the appropriate decision before purchasing.

I would discourage running the Tarmac springs on the standard shocks. It will work OKAY, but not be ideal. Main issue is the rear shocks can't quite keep up.

RCE Yellows are very good springs and we've had a lot of happy track guys with that kit on stock and aftermarket shocks. Ain't nothing wrong with running those springs on stock shocks and upgrading shocks later. :thumbup:

- Andy

I have RCE Yellows on B8s, Raceseng CasCam, SPC rear LCAs, and Eibach bars set to stiff on the front soft on the rear. I really like the car as is, I am dialed in with 0 toe and -3 degrees of camber all around and 255 square setup. The car does well at auto x, and I have had a couple of co-drivers who feel it is set up decently, and it loves to hunt down Porsches in the corners on lapping days. I find it harsh to drive everyday around town but our roads are crap up here.

Did you get the 86speedfactory package?

No I pieced together my own package from various vendors as I am up here in Canada.

I run your #2 option. I use my car as a daily driver and for autocross. It is much tighter all around and more evenly balanced than stock. The 3/4" drop still allows me to navigate the city and manage pot holes. I highly recommend it. It is comparable in quality to a 3-4k coilovers system.

Bilstein B14 + HVT camber plates

$1400 Done!

I'm gonna tell you what you don't want to hear. You're gonna get what you pay for.

If it were me, I'd keep the stock suspension, and get rear LCAs, front camber plates, a good alignment, and run it that way.

Cheap coilovers will NOT improve performance (no matter what people tell you); they're strictly useful for dropping the car. Springs on stock dampers, while not a bad medium, will not increase performance as much as getting a proper alignment.

Bonus: Camber plates and rear LCAs will not be outgrown, even if you go to top shelf dampers, you will be re-using these parts. :thumbsup:

If you insist on spending more money, then I'd get RaceSeng CasCam plates, SPL Rear LCAs, and Swift Spec-R springs on stock dampers. We can package all this together for you, and is actually the exact setup that is on our car at the moment.

+1 on the Raceseng cascam plates, that is going to be my next purchase for my car along with Whiteline rear LCAs. If I had to do it over, I would have done those first as @CSG Mike suggested.

I don't mind hearing that at all ;) in fact I was looking for something critical and to the point.

For springs on stock dampers - why Swift Spec-R vs. RCE Yellow or Swift Sport FRS/BRZ ? Do you prefer progressive + it's spring rates?

They last longer, and the spring rates are at the bleeding edge of what the stock dampers can handle.

You'll probably want to cut your bumpstops too.

I wouldn't use Swift Spec R on stock dampers. They're even stiffer than our Tarmac springs in the rear and IMO that's too much.

Also, cut bumpstops generally aren't preferable compared to a full replacement shorter bumpstop.

EDIT: I do agree that camber plates (HVT and Raceseng are good options) and quality rear LCAs are a good thing to think about adding to any track set-up, whether it's with stock springs, lowering springs, or coilovers.

- Andy

While cut bumpstops are not ideal, someone purchasing springs is looking for the most cost effective solution, not the ideal solution.

I absolutely agree that replacing the bumpstops is better than cutting the stock ones.

Stupid question, where can I buy bumpstops? rallysport, speedfactory, you guys, don't carry them it seems. Unless my keyword usage straight sucks today.

I don't know of any shop that sells them.

There are a few places you can spec out custom ones, but the bumpstops included with our RCE springs (and Eibach + TRD) are the only ones made specifically with the BRZ/FRS in mind. We are not able to sell them separately unfortunately.

- Andy

This makes sense as the stock suspension handles very well. Would you consider the Bilstein b14's w/custom swift springs to improve performance?

I've not had an opportunity to sample that combination, so... I have no idea.

How much would it cost for this combination? Is it worth it?

I don't see why you would need to swap the springs as the B14 allows for:

Spring Rates (adjustable)
Front: 2.5-4.5kg progressive
Rear: 3.0-7.0kg progressive

Swift Spec R (fixed)
Spring Rate (Front): 4.4-kg/mm (245-lb/in)
Drop (Front): -28 mm (-1.1 in)
Spring Rate (Rear): 5.3-kg/mm (296-lb/in)
Drop (Rear): -25 mm (-1.0 in)

http://www.ft86speedfactory.com/bils...vers-1216.html

http://counterspacegarage.com/produc...scion-frs.html

If the ability (and perhaps adjustability) of going from DD to Performance oriented is the goal, and not track performance, are the ST's or B14's worthwhile for the damper upgrades?
Or would the ride customization only really come in with the 2 or 3 way adjustable coilovers? IE: KW V3's? Is there a more affordable setup that could smooth out sucky roads from the DD, that can be tweak for the track/autoX when (rarely) needed?

IMO, cheap coilovers are strictly for dropping the car. Some options can drop the car, and ride nicely on the street, but none of the the options in that price perform well on track, OR on the street.

A performance increase is a performance increase. If improves performance on the street, it'll naturally improve track performance. Likewise, track performance means street performance. The two goals for increasing performance are, literally, the same goal.

Tracks are not a perfectly smooth surface. They're full of bumps, dips, undulations, and things that upset cars.

Can't put Swift Spec R lowering springs on a coilover. He meant replace the standard Bilstein progressive springs with standardized linear coilover springs (which Swift, Hyperco, Eibach, etc. make in a variety of lengths/rates/diameters).

It's something I'd be interested in doing, but it adds quite a bit of cost to the kit.

- Andy

So your recommendation would be to go big or go "RaceSeng CasCam plates, SPL Rear LCAs, and Swift Spec-R springs on stock dampers"?

TEIN's weren't in his initial list. I know you guys love your SRC's. What about the rest of the TEIN lineup, specifically the Mono Sport and Street Flex? It seems the KW's and RCE's get a lot more attention for the $2000 price range.

Is there really nothing between just springs and $2000 coilvers that would ride nicely on the street but be an improvement, however minor, on the track?

Depends on goals, application, budget, etc. :)

Hey David! So we talked briefly before, and I'm still doing research...

What's you and Mike's take on: ST or B14's (or TEIN's)?