Moral Standing...
 

Everyone is excited about these new cars and so am I! The situation is very dynamic as dealerships try to sell, individuals try to buy all while the market is seething with activity on what may be hype, limited numbers or the next true sports car! Something I am seeing is very disturbing though. I see on this forum a number of people who bash dealerships because of apparently underhanded moves. I then see posts of people (including myself) who bash the dealers for not being upright and forthcoming in their dealings. I am not a dealer, salesman or connected to the car business other than as purchaser and lover of everything automotive. Actually I'm in the military, and have been for the preceeding 28+ years. I type all this to say If you make a deposit on a car, strike a deal on a price and expect the dealer to honor it then YOU should be willing to do the same thing! "X" dealer got one in a few days earlier, or I changed my mind on the color, tranny or whatever is not a valid answer, nor is making multiple deposits at different sales outlets. Dealerships expect YOU to keep your word too! As a minimum tell your dealer so they can make arrangements also. This is their business and livelyhood.
DO WHAT YOU SAY! YOU THEN HAVE THE RIGHT TO EXPECT THE SAME IN RETURN. Don't be an assclown...;)

I totally agree with everything you said but I think one of the reasons that people put down multiple deposits is to cover their ass because they expect the dealers to screw them when the car arrives so they want to have a back up and be able to go to another dealer. This allows you to choose the dealer who treats you best, which is what competition is all about. And the consumer wins when there is competition in the market.

And in a big purchase as a car, I don't blame people for doing that. Once again, I agree with your overall point, there are certain people who can be assclowns but some of us are just being smart and trying to get the best deal.

This is spot on. saying that those who put down multiple deposits are somehow being unfair to the dealers is ridiculous. The real way to solve this problem, is to have the dealers write a contract stipulating they cannot mark up the car over the agreed price, and your problem would be solved and multiple deposits would be reduced.

I agree Smitty. I want to have a back-up plan myself. Mine is to arm myself with info so that when a dealer starts talking "fees" I can counter with the doc fee in SC or NC is $XX bucks. Or, limited availability! Actually they aren't that limited because XYZ has one on the showroom floor that will go for retail. I made clear that when I put money down and shook the GM's hand that I intend to do what I say, but I also expect him to do what was agreed by him and his subordinates. There is never a reason to do the wrong thing, only excuses. I never intended this to sound "high and mighty" or "better than thou" but we have gotten very spoiled as consumers thinking retailers owe us something. They do! But we owe them upright business practices also.

I think my flame suit is zipped, can you check that nomex strap at the back and verify no skin is exposed...

Putting down a deposit is used to show that you are a serious buyer who is willing to buy the vehicle if reasonable terms that you can both agree to are met.

Dealerships are not asked to provide any sign of intent to sell the vehicle at a reasonable price. If a dealership put down on paper that it was under the full intention/obligation to sell the vehicle requested for whatever terms have been previously negotiated THEN it would be wrong to go around to multiple dealers and get these contracts of intent. Just the same as it would be wrong for a dealership to accept multiple deposits for the same car.

It's not considered wrong for a dealership to form waiting lists for interested buyers and subsequently should not be considered wrong for buyers to form lists of multiple dealers they may purchase the car from. Just because the dealers request a down deposit to get on your waiting list of dealers you may buy from doesn't make it morally wrong to keep your options open, it still puts them in a more favorable position than it puts the customer when the dealer sticks them on a waiting list because intent to honor the agreement (in the form of a requested monetary deposit) has been shown by the consumer.

Almost any dealership I've called around to that has sold out of their preorders has a waiting list, a lot of them have rather long waiting lists, these are people that they have to sell the car to in-case the preorder backs out; they're not going to be left sitting with a car that they can't sell, they've already planned (their waitlist) for some of the consumers who have preordered to renege on their order and have set about preparing for this situation, putting them in a position of greater power. Why should the consumer not have the ability to have a backup plan or "plan B" in case the dealership reneges? It's only equaling things out.

Zgrinch,
I agree with you except that people are placing orders (I want this color and this tranny)with this deposit(I got MY VON or my VIN). Porsche for instance,still has a program called special wishes. They used to advertise it by showing a womans nails and then showing a 911 in that color. Not everyone may like that color if you back out! If you just place a deposit on a car and then change your mind, no biggie! if on the other hand you order a car, that is a much different story. Your choice "might" not be something a dealer would have on the ground at his dealership had you not ordered it...

bravo zoomie i agree.

Alias,
My dealership's GM signed a purchase order as did I. I see ordering a car as totally different that placing my name on a wait list. i watched my GM's sales manager input my "order" and print out a confirmation(generating a VON). I didn't just throw my name on a waitlist. Others may have done what you suggest though...

Flaking Out works both ways right? Fact of life?

What Zoomie wrote is not ridiculous.

He stated that if you and the dealer agree on a price (such as a contract specifying MSRP) when ordering a car, you should keep to your word and not back out just because another dealer got the same car sooner.

Ordering multiple cars at different dealerships (in case one dealership gets it before another) is less akin to waiting lists and more akin to a dealer agreeing to sell the same car to multiple people (which I think we all agree would be outrageously underhanded).

All IMO, of course.

Oh, and IBTL :D

The difference is that the BRZ and FR-S don't really have "options". You choose 1 of 6 or 7 colors, 1 of 2 transmissions, 1 of 3 trims. It isn't like when my wife ordered her MINI and you could choose from 13 body colors, 3 roof colors, 2 engines, 2 transmissions, moonroof, driving lights, bonnet stripes, LSD, heated seats, steering wheel controls, fog lights, leather, cloth, leatherette, 5 different dash trims, 3 different interior colors, etc. etc. You could make some really odd, but pricey combinations on the MINI that would be hard to sell. For all practical purposes, the BRZ and FR-S are ordered in spec models and there are some minor things you can add at the port or dealer.

Quentin,
You might want to look at the sales brochure (BRZ). Packages (limited, premium), tranny and port installed items are options dude. Things that people are distressed over like tinting, paint treatment mud flaps etc are also options (not cost effective ones in my opinion, but none the less options):D.

I still can't believe someone would put a deposit on a car without having a purchase order that includes a total price with fees and all.
I'm a sales manager at a Toyota dealership and never have or will take such deposit. That's just an easy way for sleazy dealerships to take advantage of someone because of their over excitement on a new car.
No total price = no deposit

The bigger problem from the consumers end is the dealership can't tell you what color or packaged cars are coming their way. If the dealership knew the colors, trannys, and packages coming their way then the only excuse the consumer would have is financial reasons.

I think it's a little unfair to potential buyers when someone places deposits at multiple dealerships, with the intent on only buying one car. That's taking waiting list spots away from people who would actually buy the car, given the chance. At my dealership we simultaneously take a deposit and have the buyer sign a purchase and sales agreement, even if it's on an incoming car, where we write "agreed on MSRP" or "discount X from MSRP" if we don't know what the actual price will be. The deposit is refundable and the deal can be cancelled, but it tends to weed out the flaky buyers.

i find this way better to do business.

I don't disagree, but you are missing the point. The simple fact that people have put down multiple deposits and placed an order for a specific color and Trans....why ? Because the dealer will not fully commit to the specific price prior to the order. This is the issue. Again, if they would commit to let's say, MSRP, in writing, then it would be wrong to place a deposit with some other dealer...that part I agree with you on...however what is happening is the dealer gets a deposit, tells the customer MSRP, and then when the car arrvies they say ..oh by the way...it going to have a $2,500 markup..and that is the problem. Fix the front part of the transaction and the multiple deposits issue will go away. Otherwise, it would be stupid not to put down multiple deposits, if your dealer will not commit in writing. I do not have this issue, as my deal is in writing and signed by the SM.

Just my two cents.

Ahhh. I think I understand ZGrinch! If the dealer is unwilling to commit then the buyer is no more obligated than the seller...OK, I'll buy that! I wouldn't personally put a deposit down without fully defining the delivery price though. If the dealer won't commit then I would seek out another dealer who would! My dealer gave me a firm price. he would have received no commitment had he not so defined the final number. Hey, I haven't taken delivery yet. I may go back and hear the "market adjustment" rhetoric. If so, I'll look elsewhere and provide documentation to others (if asked)why they did not receive my business.

Yeah, it definitely works both ways.

I clearly listed color, 3 trims (FR-S, BRZ Prem, BRZ Limited), and transmission. In the traditional sense of options, though, they don't really have any. The port installed options on the BRZ and FR-S are all things that the dealer can change with relative ease. Heck, go build a BRZ on the Subaru website. It says "Choose your options: there are no options available."

If you order a BRZ limited with 6AT in WRB with the Auto-dimming mirror, chrome fender trim, and SPT battery hold down, it won't be the same vehicle to rot on a dealer lot like ordering a chocolate brown Mini Cooper S convertible Highgate w/ all the major packages and a 6MT that stickers for $36,500. That is my point. Companies like Subaru and Toyota keep the true options to a minimum and tend to not really be ordered while MINI and Porsche are more the type of car that is ordered rather than picked off the lot.

Your argument revolves around fewer options translate into justifying your position to NOT complete a negotiated contract because the dealer may be able to sell it anyway? Wow. I would have to say that is the most asinine thing I have heard thus far on this board :thumbsup:.

Agreed, no one should be unreasonable with anyone.
Dealers are here to sell you a car, and stay in business.
Understand the mutual, and walk away silently if you don't see the deals as something you want to take.

It's just that. There are plenty of information folks have posted about where to get a Great Deal on the FRS at least.

If not, call Longo Scion's Jeffrey Chang, or Penske Scion's Linh Lam, in Southern California and they will be happy to reserve a car for $500 refundable and at MSRP of SCION USA, and ship and register in any state you like in the USA for a reasonable normal fee, that is well under some scary inflated prices other places have shown to post for sale.

Now most dealers should be HAPPY to refund you deposits too, since there are many more buyers right now who would gladly buy something you decided not to take when it comes to the FRS.

1) I wasn't talking about a contract. I was simply talking about a deposit on a color & transmission. If they have a contract, they have a contract.
2) I'm just saying it is different. I'm saying that putting down $500 with no contract on a car that you don't really option that is high demand and then backing out isn't nearly as bad as someone who orders a completely custom vehicle. Shades of gray. When I ordered my GTI, there was no contract. Had I backed out of that order, it would have been a major **** move because I basically ordered a stripped out 4 door w/ factory aero kit, 18" wheels, and rear torso airbags... 2 of 3 of those being things that the VW dealers never order on the cars they keep on the lot. See the difference now?
3) You haven't been around long if you think that is the most asinine thing on this board. Your inability to tell the difference between the two scenarios is pretty asinine. Oh, here are the requisite smilies. :bonk::wub::eyebulge:

The part of the reason that dealers cannot commit is that, in the case of the Scion FRS, some slower selling dealers are not allocated enough of them, and must source the incoming orders through dealer trades. When such is the case, the dealers can not quote a price until they secure a FRS elsewhere to trade and the costs involved in doing that, as dealers themselves must go through negotiations. The problem again arises when a source dealership usually will not part with an FRS either, as even the largest of volume dealers already have customers waiting for them. This is how SOME dealers MUST mark up greatly as the price they paid to trade the car for an FRS, can be much higher than sourced normally through their own allocations.

It is also why a larger-volume dealers really have an advantage with quantity and price of any popular car.

Let's make sure we are staying civil, guys!

Just wanted to mention that when a dealer trade is done there is no negotiation between dealers. Each dealership writes a check to the other for the invoice price of the car they are receiving minus holdback minus finance reserve (neither of which the FR-S has). Now, getting any dealership to let go of an allocated FR-S right now, well, that's a whole norher story.
I can understand charging the customer the transport fee but that's not usually that much anyways.
It costs me less than $100 to get a vehicle here from any dealership in the new England region so we don't bother the client with the charge because it's not worth aggrevating them with it.

Wait, so the scenario is that dealers said "I'll sell this to you at MSRP, but I can't commit to that in writing", and the buyers put down deposits anyway?

Or is the more common scenario that some buyers simply didn't think to ask for a purchase agreement that specifies MSRP?

This is anecdotal, but I spoke to several dealers and all of them told me they'd do a contract for MSRP (with final purchase contingent on test drive).

I have a deposit at 2 dealers right now. I had a deposit at 1 since Febraury and the other since yesterday. Its funny that in 2 days I was able to get a VIN, price, and financing before the original dealer I planned on using even told me my place on their list. What is even more funny is the day after I got this deal the first dealer sent me an email saying they have a price for me. Should I still be loyal to them? I don't think so.

couldnt agree more! :happy0180: