Clutch Issue with Dealer and HPDE
 

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Well even though the car is marketed as a track car and it's stupid they are messing with you, you did lie and tell them it's never been tracked. So although they don't wanna warranty it, you are trying to get something fixed that could possibly be messed up do to your tracking.

Man, you can't seriously expect the dealership to warranty a broken clutch when the car has been tracked, can you?

I realize that the car is a 'performance car' but I have never seen a dealer warranty a part that is commonly thrashed on a track (clutch, brakes etc...) when the car has indeed, been abused on a track.

A warranty is designed to protect a buyer from car malfunction or issue during normal driving conditions. Worn track pads, seriously warn tires and an exploded clutch do NOT happen under normal driving conditions.

You're going to have to fix this one on your own, short of somehow being able to manipulate the dealer into fixing it for you.

Unless Toyota somehow graces you with a mulligan, you are paying for this one out of your own pocket.

Fraud is illegal btw.

How is this fraud? Why does it matter that I participated in a High Performance Driving Education event?
I wasn't racing - that is illegal without a competition license. The clutch simply snapped while driving. Why would a clutch snap it half during an UP shift? The warranty states "What's not covered? - Misuse — for example, racing or
overloading"

I did not race, I drove smoothly on a racetrack in a non-competitive event under instruction

I did not overload - I didn't mod the car except brakes and tires. I probably drove it no harder than anyone else on this forum getting on an on or off ramp.

The clutch that is still there is not worn, the flywheel isn't worn, so what gives? Faulty Part!!

Fraud? Answer this question: Did you take your car to the race track? Your first posts says you did, yet you answered no when asked by the service manager.

Racing? You do not need a competition license to race. This isn't Gran Turismo.

Clutches can break under any shifting condition where there's a load applied. Upshift or down.

Misuse: racing (see above), or overloading. Both can happen at the track.

How did you drive smoothly? What is the definition of a smooth driver?

In any case, your best bet at this point is to 1) find a lawer that will help you out, or 2) pay for the expenses yourself. At face value, my advice to you is to not have unrealistic expectations of what an automotive warranty is.

-alex

if it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck..... just sayin....

From the handy dandy book in your glovebox covering the warranty:
(Link, pdf is on the right)

(apologies for the wonky format, I copy pasted)

So, in my book and many others, an HPDE is not competitive in any sense (no timing, no passing, no keeping track of results) and as such is not "racing" and many have argued that successfully, many unsuccessfully.

I think the only thing really worth discussing is did the clutch fail due to abuse or manufacturer defect? There are a handful of clutches that have failed out of the blue on here if you search around and your description jives with that, I would fight to have it covered under warranty if I was in your position.

You goofed up lying to the service manager, I would have refused to answer the questions he asked as it does not pertain to the warranty. If you go into the dispute with a Toyota corporate rep and explain that you were afraid of an unjust warranty denial and come clean that's really all you can do.

Yes, you might get stuck with the bill in the end and for all we know it really was abuse that killed the clutch.

Hope it works out, in the grand scheme of things a sooner than expected clutch replacement isn't the end of the world.
:burnrubber:

"and an exploded clutch do NOT happen under normal driving conditions."

Um, well back in the mid-70's when Pontiac had the Sunbird they came out with the V-6 in it, manual trans and the car had too much power, too much weight and too small a clutch disc and they did come apart under normal enthusiastic driving conditions. I worked for Pontiac back then and can verify that happened.

The perfect opportunity to upgrade the clutch. Better than paying money to a lawyer.

Eh, stock clutch is up to par with the stock power. Upgraded clutches that will probably wear faster than the OEM clutch are one of the biggest wastes of money that could go to other mods in my opinion.


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This is Subaru. GM sucks. This car does not overpower the clutch. Apples and oranges.

The burden is on the manufacturer to prove that what he did caused the failure. An occasional autocross or track day would be completely within the realm of "normal use" for a car sold as a sports car. He may need to get a lawyer, but the law is on his side. Here's a good read.

http://www.fd3s.net/lemon_site/saga.htm

Except in the warranty does not provide an all-inclusive list of what is considered misuse, it merely uses "racing" as an example. It wouldn't be too much of a stretch for the manufacturer to say that the exact same behavior as racing, with the exception of being a timed event for points, would also fall under the category of misuse.

It also lists "overloading" as an example. Since this car's power level is well matched to the clutch, it would only be overloaded as a result of poor technique. Since he was going to a borderline-racing track day whose stated purpose is driver education, then it follows that his clutch technique might not have been the greatest and that's why he needed education.

I can see why the dealer, or the manufacturer, would be inclined to deny the warranty. If my clutch shit the bed right now, at 10K miles, with only daily driving and no track days, HDPE, or autocross, then it would be more difficult for them to get out of it.

Although I don't have links I have seen at least 1 other clutch that failed similar to your picture.

Not sure what that means, just mentioning it.

Good luck OP. Let us know how it turns out and if you end up with an OEM or aftermarket clutch.

Suggestion for the OP: buy an A/T next time. That way, you won't have a clutch to destroy! :D

An HPDE event is not recing, but is is high performance driving. I think it's a stretch, but as such, it could be considered "racing" just not under the strict definition of ranked automotive competition.

Either way, an HPDE event should not BREAK the clutch unless you're a hamfist and slam every upshift, or don't bother rev matching any downshifts. Even then, it's plausible but not probable. Part of the track experience is to learn how to be smooooooth... If this was at a drag strip, then it's within the realm of expected failures, but certainly not a track event.

All things considered, if his engine and drivetrain is fully stock, I believe the dealer should provide a replacement. If it's modified, or if the OP is a hamfist, I think it's on the OP. At least the clutch in this car seems like a simple job.

I am 100% in agreement with you and I honestly don't think the world is an injust place if the OP has to replace the clutch on his own even if it is a manufacturer defect, it's the nature of any performance vehicle.

For OP's and others reference here's a link to the other failed clutches I can find, one with zero autox/hpde.
Page 3 is where it gets interesting:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=51754&page=3

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...33&postcount=5

If that's is true then there would be no need for upgraded pads.

Also see your own signature and the accompanying description of your car.

Not only is HPDE NOT RACING, but some insurance companies still cover you when participating as long as it is not a timed event.

For a while Insurance companies even encouraged it as it made you a better driver.

A clutch replacement is not that expensive (less than a set of racing tires & brakes) if you do it yourself.

Oh, I'm not saying it couldn't happen. Manufacturer defects are always possible. I just think that given track usage and the vagueness of the warranty wording, the dealer has a reasonable leg to stand on for them to deny coverage.

It doesn't matter if it's racing. The warranty provided racing as an example of misuse, not a hard rule of what they defined as misuse. I haven't seen a definitive list of what Subaru or Toyota considers vehicle misuse. They could say that HDPE is misuse because it's still pushing your car hard around a track, even though it isn't for points or time. And just because insurance might cover it doesn't mean the warranty will.

Agreed. I checked with my insurance company before going to a track event.
I was told that as long as it's not "wheel to wheel" racing I was covered.
Several other car owners that were present also told me the same. I was surprised as hell to hear this..

Using that arguement they could deny you warranty coverage "for pushing your car hard" through the canyons while commuting to work.

Then they could define "hard" as anything over 5k RPM.

So they think they can deny you coverage for going to a "performance driving event/education" with what they call themselves a "high performance automobile"?

That sounds like they are saying - "Dont you dare get any training on how to drive our car in the way that we intended it, or else"

WHY do you suppose the insurance companies warrant that type of activity? Because they were challenged on it and it IS considered "normal use" to get education in how to drive your car. In fact I have heard of people who get traffic tickets TOLD to take a Driver's Education Course hich includes hands on training in your vehicle.
Can the company refuse warranty work if the car breaks while at a "Driver's education course" just because they teach you how to recover from loss of control when hydroplaning?

Whenever I see threads like this, I understand and appreciate the importance of a good customer/dealer relationship.

A lot of these "issues" stem from unrealistic customer expectations of warranty coverage, or miscommunication between customer and warranty provider (Subaru of America).

Frankly, if you are "fighting" the dealer, something is amiss from the above two points.

-alex

That's exactly what Subaru did when the WRX came out, and again when the STi came out. A lot of people fight it and some of them get good results, but a lot of people roll over because they don't know the law or don't have the money to fight it.

They could define misuse as any redline or overrev event; and I think they do for a type 2 overrev. The point is that it's their prerogative to define misuse as the manufacturer, not ours as the users. If they say that driving it hard in a track environment is misuse of the vehicle, then it is, unless you have the money and the lawyers to challenge them and win. If you keep it below redline and never take it off road (tracks being off road), then they'd have to work a lot harder to say it's misuse.

Ah the fun part, back when DI seals first became an issue CSG went all out pulling the advertising material Subaru put out, I'd say a HPDE is well within normal operation parameters according to the OEM for this car, toss in some Scion Ken Gushi action in totally stock examples and I think it would be a relatively short case.

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37810

I read that, it's crazy. I definitely understand both sides of the argument, but it's hard for a manufacturer to look at a car with new design and technology, and a heavily-tracked car at that, and make the leap from "you broke it" to "it's a manufacturer defect, let us devote significant amounts of time and money into developing a fix for it." It was only when it started cropping up in cars that had never seen track time that they started taking it seriously.

And a relatively short case is still much much longer and more expensive than no case at all. If they can tell you that it's denied because you tracked it and you accept that, then that's money they didn't have to spend.

But I agree; all the brochures and commercials and Ken Gushi sliding around in promotional vids made it a lot harder to say "this isn't proper usage."

We keep talking about overloading the clutch/engine etc ... I thought overloading referred to the amount of carrying load capacity as in how much weight you put in the car.


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I'd normally just page @Knshro13 to come in and talk about him sliding, but he's probably busy at 14000' right now.

-alex

Since you paged him anyway, color me impressed if he comes in with some warranty advice in regards to aggressive driving.

We all know he can work it.

That's what burned Mazda. Lawyers will make quick work of this. Like I posted earlier, if they advertise it as a sports car, they should expect it to be driven as a sports car. The other thing is to not take it in and talk about how you drive it. "It's making a clicking noise from the rear..." Don't volunteer anything they can possibly use against you.

Ass.. Ever been to the track?

You still need a clutch?

Ok so here we go, the follow up..


If you do go to the track, even with an instructor in a driver school (everyone who hasn't been and drives this car on the street DD is silly, are we 18?) make sure you put your car as close to 100% back to stock as possible.

The service manager judged the tires and brakes and stickers and took that to say the clutch was "abused". I drove my 2009 Mazda Speed3 the SAME as a drive this car and that clutch made it to 95,000 without BREAKING IN HALF.

I talked to another dealer who said since the clutch that I had left wasn't worn down, the flywheel was OK, and that it wasn't slipping then it wasn't wear and tear.

It was obviously a subjective situation....racetrack, HPDE, racing? not racing? warranty? etc. Point is protect yourself because Toyota provides no help at all. I called them and they said they would do their "research". They called the dealer and the rep and then told me they go with what the rep said and I was SOL.

I told them I did not feel that I was being treated fairly by the dealer and the rep. I told them since the dealer wouldn't show me the email stating the warranty was denied that I had no proof the dealer wasn't "double dipping". Furthermore, I was not allowed to talk to the rep myself. I was forced to have someone else (A**H*** service manager) represent me.......

I asked if there was anyone else I could talk to and they said no. I said then why does it say I can move to arbitration in my owner's manual? They said I had to say that for it to be an option....



Even driving at 80MPH>>> a shift is a shift. The clutch should not have BROKEN IN HALF on me. Even if you don't believe that this wasn't driver error, (it really, really wasn't) how is the TRACK involved???


Had to pay $1100 parts and labor to get my car back...

Why didn't they tell me they weren't going to cover because of stickers and brake pads BEFORE they dropped the transmission and exhaust out of the car to check the clutch???HMMMMM

You can check all of that through the inspection port at the top of the transmission.

So, if we knowingly do something that will likely void the warranty, you're saying we should commit fraud so we don't have to pay for it to be fixed?

Yes. I don't call that fraud though. I'm just giving them a car to fix with stock pads. They can do what they will. Just like they did here. I feel that if the dealer and toyota will so easily call a "close one" abuse, then why not show them a car that is close to stock. Nothing illegal about that. No more than nixing the warranty for some stickers and pads that are un-related. Everyone has to play hard ball, unfortunately.

It doesn't matter what you choose to call it, it's still fraud. Which can be a misdemeanor or a felony depending on the state's laws and the value of defrauded goods or services. It doesn't become not illegal just because you don't want it to be.

Well good thing I didn't commit "fraud" then.
What special scary word do we have for a dealer dropping your transmission knowing full well they won't cover the work but telling you it may be covered? Malpractice?

I agree that returning a modified car to stock condition to get a warranty fix may be fraud, but it isn't always black and white. I disagree with the accusation of fraud when the warranty claim in question has little if nothing to do with the modifications.

For this instance, a clutch physically breaking in half (no premature wear or glazing) on a stock drivetrain, but the warranty claim was denied because of tires, brake pads, and stickers. If the service manager instantly makes the decision because of these criteria and then contrives his own "facts" then I fully support the "return to stock" MO because he is not playing fair. I don't consider this fraud, just the owner protecting himself from unfair judgement. On the other hand, returning a FI engine back to stock because of drivetrain problems, is certainly fraudulent and I do not support it. I do not believe an HDPE event or doing canyon runs should result in a warranty claim being denied for something like this. There's plenty of things that can go wrong and should be denied if a car is driven hard frequently, but not this.

In my opinion, the dealer proceeding with work that was already determined to be out of warranty was grossly unfair and unprofessional, if not illegal. As stated above, the inspection port should have been sufficient for a "yes or no". Instead, the owner is forced to pay for parts and labor without authorizing it.