Traded my FR-S for a Mustang GT: A cautionary tale
 

This is a story that unfolded because of threads that exist in this 'vs' section so I thought I would share. It's a bit of a long story, but I think it could help out some owners that might be thinking about moving on to 'greener pastures'. This is a story all about how my FRS got flipped in on a Mustang GT.

I bought my FR-S about a week after launch. I had been following the development religiously since reading about the joint venture between Toyota and Subaru on a Toyota forum many years ago when I was just a young innocent lad. When the car came out I actually didn't even pre order one because I am not a small guy. I've always wanted a Miata or an Elan or any other super light sports car but at 6'7 and 330 lbs it just doesn't happen easily. I expected the twins to be more of the same, but I was pleasantly surprised when I went into a local dealer a few days after launch and they had a black 6AT sitting in the show room... and I fit in it. Immediately I couldn't sleep, I thought of nothing else. Most of you probably know how this story goes. I did everything I could to get one, but it was launch week and I didn't pre-order. I assumed I was waiting for a long time, maybe even a year some dealers said but I didn't give up. I got lucky, the first dealer I visited called me back. They had a cancellation on a whiteout 6mt with the upgraded head unit. Exactly what I was hoping for. I rushed to the dealer to give them a deposit and tried my best to fall asleep for the next 6 days until it arrived. I remember the torture as my awesome sales guy called to say my car was being unloaded off the truck, only to be heartbroken as he told me the dealer closed in an hour and they were not open the next two days. I actually went and looked at my car sitting there in the garage waiting for is delivery inspection. As soon they reopened I was there and at 9 in the morning I drove off into the sunset with the protective cling wrap still on the car.

In her new home ready for a first wash:
http://i.imgur.com/9WXKH.jpg

The E30's in the background that taught me that a slow light car is faster than a fast heavy car... too bad I forgot that lesson less than a year after this was taken.

http://i.imgur.com/pMbLN.jpg


I loved it. It was a great car, and it was exactly what I expected. The steering feel and shifter feel are the best I have ever experienced in my history, and I've had the great pleasure of having sampled quite a few cars in my time. The perfect weight of the electric steering amazed me - no one gets electric steering this right, but Subaru and Toyota did.



It was a great year full of many trips and a lot of smiles, but there was a crack forming in my love for my car. It started small, when I would go to overtake someone on the highway or when I would try to leave a stop on a hill without winding the engine up too high. Could it be? the naysayers had a point? 151 ft-lbs wasn't enough torque and 200hp wasn't enough power to make up for it? Naahh, they just don't 'get it'. I ignored it and enjoyed my car, but I did spend a little too much time reading new car tests and checking this vs section. I was quite confident in my choice until one fateful video of Randy Pobst reviewing a Mustang GT against an M3 around Buttonwillow raceway. The Mustang matched the m3's time. I always wanted an e90 m3 but felt the cost just wasn't worth it. Then I started noticing threads on here comparing the FR-S to the mustang v6. So I started watching reviews comparing them. I didn't think Ford could really have made it so good compared to the mid 90's cars I had grown up with. So I still didn't get it but I was starting to.


Fatefully, at around the same time I had some problems with my fr-s. Nothing major, but the timing could not have been worse. Most of them were related to early production issues (the popping rear shelf, the crickets, the idle quality) but some of them were cases of me expecting too much. Things like not loving the buzzy, boomy cabin on long highway drives or touchy clutch that required quite a bit of finesse in heavy traffic. The flywheel rattle at low speeds and the cold start issues. The frozen windows and the worse than expected economy. I also made the car worse by adding a poorly performing intake (which I removed) and then some heavy 18x9.5's with some overly sticky Star specs.

Nice looking wheels, but they definitely were all show. Lesson learned.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8294/...9e7b92bc_b.jpg

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8303/...b7e20d65_b.jpg


Between early production issues, stupid expectations and stupid mods I had made my car worse and was expecting too much from it. All these issues seem so silly now because now I know that almost all new cars have some issue like this. But, I was suddenly very interested in what Ford had done with Mustangs so I called a friend who knew a mechanic at a local Ford dealer and I went and test drove one.


This was one of the last photos I would take of my FR-S, late in the winter.

https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8237/...c5c4eb81_h.jpg


The funny thing was I was interested in a v6, or possibly a 2-3 year old V8 with the new 5.0. They didn't have any manual v6's on the lot so they put me in a 2011 GT. The power was intoxicating - i giggled like a little kid every time I got into it. The engine in that car was too good for that car, and it seduced me. Then the referal source I had told me they were desperate to sell the new-old-stock 2013's they had sitting on lots, becuase the 2014's were already arriving. Suddenly I was looking at a 25% discount on a brand new fully loaded GT, and they were willing to give me 90% of the msrp of my FR-S on trade in. I was totally drunk on the deal, and a week after I had starting consdering maybe moving on to a v6, I was taking dlievery of a 2013 GT with the GT Track Pack. I left them the keys to my FR-S and didn't look back as I drove away. Even the service staff at the dealer thought I was nuts, they loved my FR-S. That should have told me something.


The day it came home
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7283/...a6190f53_b.jpg



At first it was love. Her raw power and retro interior combined to give the car quite a spirit... it has character, that car. It could be a movie star.




For a while I was quite happy with my choice.

People would say to me; "YOU TRADED IN WHAT?" and I would laugh because the twins are so highly regarded as the second coming of the sports car but no one I knew actually owned or wanted one, they just loved that they were out there and other people owned them. They didn't understand that I could trade in a special car for a run of the mill muscle car. I would counter by saying the Mustang could keep up with an M3 around a road course (true) and that it was really more of a sports car now (not so true) and that it was more practical (slightly more room inside, but narrower trunk opening and the seats don't fold totally flat, so this is partly true) and I even was naive enough to believe the sticker for fuel economy and told people things like 'economy is barely worse than the fr-s!' (definitely not true).

It took about 3 months until I couldn't stand the wallowing loose character of the suspension. Even with the upgraded track pack the springs are very soft and the body roll is very dramatic. The car will post the numbers but it's very dramatic about it and that leads to a feeling like you're not really in control. It's also got the worst brake dive i've ever experienced. Other than that it was a fun car in corners with stick factory Pirelli's and stiff anti roll bars. Ford truly has turned that live rear axle into quite the impressive piece of design. It really only felt bad in the ride quality department, and over rough pothole strewn roads.

So, I ordered up a set of Airlift performance Air suspension. A bit of an oddball choice, but there is a rising trend in performance tuned air suspension so I wanted to see what the fuss was about. It also had the benefit of removing the extremely 4x4 ride height of the stock car, something no standard static suspension can do.

Before:

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3789/...2cbcfdff_b.jpg

After:

https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7298/...778c4742_h.jpg

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3830/...7797199f_h.jpg

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2825/...1d0f662b_b.jpg


The car was dramatically transformed. Zero body roll, only slightly stiffer than stock and the ability to hard park with the best of them. I don't regret that suspension at all. It renewed my interest in the car, and for a long time I was totally happy.

But once agian, cracks started to form. I mentioned earlier that the Coyote 5.0 v8 is a great engine, too good for the car. To me that means that the rest of the car is at a lower level of driver involvement, driver pleasure. It's all secondary to that beast. The brakes are vague but powerful, the steering is heavy in sport mode and too light in normal mode. The shifter is clunky and grinds at low RPM. The entire car is compromised around that beast, to deal with that power without killing you and to be honest you don't care. It's a bit like saying the occupants of a tank have their comfort compromised to fit the main gun, but you would still have a huge grin on your face if someone gave you the keys and told you to have fun. The problem is the novelty of having a weapons grade bomb under your right foot wears off. It's made worse by the realities of city life. If you enjoy that engine at full throttle for more than 4 or 5 seconds you're looking at your car impounded and you bank account drained to pay fines. If you're like me and you wont' track a car you're still making payments on then power that good is wasted.

So eventually all you're left with is a car that is good, but would be better if it didn't have to contain the beast under the hood, which you can't use on the street without looking over your shoulders.

So, here I am a year later, unhappy with the beast in my driveway. I miss having a simple, light drivers car with great controls and a low powered engine. I miss being able to actually drive a car hard without worrying about being arrested. So, now i'm looking at trading this car back in on a twin. I don't know why I didn't just make my FR-S a bit faster and a bit less stupid, but I can honestly say that there is precious little else out there for reasonable money that is such a pure driving machine. The Mustang is a great car for what it is, and Ford is doing a good job but it is not a drivers car. It's a mass market weekend pleasurer with a fantastic engine.

I caution anyone who is considering a trade in to know that you are stepping away from one of the purest drivers cars, at any price.

Thanks for reading.


P.s. I'm thinking about going for a sport-tech BRZ, and I'm trying ti find out if there have been any changes for the 2014 model years. I see the changes for 2015 for the FR-S, they don't interest me. Other than avoiding early production issues, I wanted to know if there is any reason to pick a 2014 over a late production 2013?

Great read. I was contemplating the exact swap. I love the 5.0 Mustang. I just had this feeling that I would miss the FRS. Therefore I am keeping her as long as I can. Let us know what you end up with. Welcome back, I guess...

Differences from 2013 to 2014 are... inexistant. Mostly tweaks, nothing you might notice if you don't look for them. 2015s have a few new nooks and crannies (default sharkfin, revised suspension bolts and struts, new colors, nothing earth shattering or that changes the car dramatically). The 2014 is basically a later produced 2013. Less off-the-lot issues, pretty much.

At this point, it's your choice on newer but sticker price or 2014 and better price.

Either way, whenever you come back, we'll welcome you once again :)

Great write-up of your experience. I got that same marshmallow feel when I test-drove a 5.0 GT. Incredible engine, but the chassis is just too heavy and the soft suspension does not help, nor does the lack of steering feel. It will put up good objective handling numbers (probably due to track pack tires), but will not inspire confidence or connection with the driver. The V6 was supposed to be better, but I rented one of those for a weekend and was also disappointed.

The comment on power is also spot-on for me. I owned a 310hp Boxster S and would run up the gears just to hear the great engine note. The problem is, I'd look down and see I was cresting well over 100 mph. It's fun, but not worth a suspended license or possible jail time.

With the FR-S, you can appropriately go WOT in certain situations like passing on the highway (even downshifting 2-3 gears, if you want) and not worry about losing your license. It's an old adage, but it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow.

That's why instead of an M3 I got a Boss 302 AND a BRZ Limited. :cool:

The only things I did to my 302 are fluids and the MGW shifter. I haven't driven a GT with Track Pack in a track environment but the Boss suspension settles quickly without affair. I had a very fast friend who's used to Miatas drive my car in an autocross and he posted some very fast numbers. Goes to show if you can drive a Miata fast you can drive anything fast! I think the biggest hurdle for a newb track driver is that if you go deep into a corner and brake too abruptly the chassis will take considerably longer to settle (the BRZ/a Miata will do the same to a lesser degree) due to weight. I think at the end of the day the involvement in the Boss is pretty good though not quite BRZ/Miata/S2K) levels. If anything the driving position/seat height of the Mustang platform could be much better. Hopefully the upcoming S550 platform addresses this issue.

The things I prefer in my Boss are (surprise!) the superior sound deadening on a longer trip (this may be a factor of just being a larger car) and man I love those Recaro seats. I'm 5'9" and 175 lbs but they hold me so much better than the BRZ seats while also being much more comfortable. From a driving perspective of course it's the ease of torque steer. It only took one event to learn torque steer properly since the power is so accessible. And of course the sound with the trackey and lopey idle, haha. Hard to beat that sound of an American V8 winding to 7500 RPMs.

Good writeup! :thumbup:

That's unfortunate. I originally felt that way when I traded in my NC MX-5 for the BRZ. But I've grown to love my BRZ more than, if not equal to my old NC. The BRZ is the better car stock for stock, and the added practicality makes it that much better.

My NC was SCCA STR specced, so the limits have been raised to incredibly high levels. I was able to corner at speeds that would land me in jail if caught. With the BRZ, I'm perfectly fine keeping it almost stock. I do plan on putting in a couple of carefully selected mods that fit well within SCCA's Street Class. But it'll be a street car with the ability to carve canyons and win(hopefully) autocrosses.

I will say that the BRZ has made me a better driver. It's such an easy car to drive. The NC was also easy to drive, but the short wheelbase made it a little tricky at the limits.

The only car I'd trade my BRZ for is the new Cayman. Which was the benchmark for the Twins(well, the older generation Caymans anyway). And I'd go for a 6MT GTS with the torque vectoring and sport suspension as the only options. Even then, it would be very hard for me to part with this car. So I'll probably end up keeping it.

I owned a Mustang GT for about 2 months. I, like you, was suckered in by the promise of HP and a V8 exhaust note. For the first couple of weeks I was loving it, then as I began to wring it out a little I was not quite as impressed. The suspension may put down great times on a track but it felt terrible, it was harsh as hell on the back roads and had lots of dive and squat and roll there and everywhere else.

I think the final straw was the shifter. Initially it felt like a short, tight, precision shifter, but as I began driving it more, occasionally running it through the paces, I noticed it wasn't very consistent. Sometimes I'd get blocked out of 2nd, especially if I shifted at redline. 3rd gear didn't seem to be where it was supposed to be sometimes, too.

At this point I felt like, the car did nothing well. I traded that POS in on a 370Z, which is what I traded in on the Mustang. Even though the 370Z shifter isn't great, they at least always work consistently.

Yeah, I had those issues too. I didn't mention it but i've spent a lot of effort on improving the shift feel, trying to return what the FR-S had. Whiteline shift bushing, different shifters and different weight of knobs. It's better, but I still get locked out of 3rd sometimes and it can still grind when shifting quick. It's also a joke when cold...


The things you love about your Boss are the things I love about my car. Even with the 3.73 gears it's a fantastic long distance cruiser. I also have the optional leather Recaros and they are hands down the best seats in any car I've owned, but I would rate the FR-S a close second. You're also touching on another point - the ergonomics of the FR-S/BRZ are totally driver oriented, whereas in the Mustang I could easily be behind the wheel of an explorer or f150.

I've been closely watching the development of the s550, but with the recent news of massive weight gain (unconfirmed 200-300 lb gain) I doubt it will work out. I am still going to wait for ford to announce their specs (hopefully not going to take too long ... ) just in case the rumours are false. I do like the idea of the mid range turbo model if it is 100lbs lighter than my GT and makes something like 330 ft-lbs then maybe I"ll find myself staying behind the Blue Oval.

You definitely seem to get what i'm getting at here. It's a great car but it's less like you're in control and more that you're along for the ride, and when you do step on it enough to make yourself giggle there is a heavy burden of guilt and potential fines that comes with it, so eventually you just stop doing it.

I have been repeating that saying to myself a lot the last few days as I considered this potential retracing of my past automotive steps.

Thank you so much for the info. I guess I was having a hard time finding details because... there wasn't any to find haha.

Everyone likes different things, but for me the trade in was not something I would do again and I would advise against it. The other factor to consider is that Ford sells millions of Mustangs, so in a couple years times the 2011 GT 5.0 will be a hell of a second hand bargin due to depreciation.

These big engine cars are not that much more fun to cruise around in, and in all honestly, I'm starting to have a hard time finding where to fit the 348hp on my Gen Coupe.

Seeing how throttle happy I was with the twins, it's burdening to the point of frustration to have to baby the thing during half hour commutes.

Familiar story that's bound to be experienced over and over. There's not one thing about this car that's really special on its own but all together it's a damn fine package. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. Unfortunately people fixate on specific aspects and begin to lose perspective of the overall car. I have noticed that most of us who own another performance focused car as well as a twin seem to appreciate the contrast.

I had a mustang once... never again will I oun a POS like that... The car was fun for the first 4K miles ( I was 17 at the time, who didn't love having a big V8) This was back in 07. Car had a tendency to lock 2nd gear on redline shifts, bought a MGW shifter for it and it made it worse...

This car was nothing but problems, most of the miles where racked up having to drive 60 miles to the stealership. It sucked at everything but going decently fast in a straight line... and even that was bad if you hit uneven roads... the rear end would just come loose and you'd feel like you have no control over the car.

Switched it for a 7 yr old BMW 530i and never regretted it. Still have that car today, though it needs a lot of TLC, like any 12yr old car would.

For road use, fast cars are overrated. Light, "slow," and moderately grippy is the way to go.

A full bolt on 86 is pretty damn close to perfection for my taste.. after this summer, I will be only a catback away form full boltons, and will be likely looking for mild weight reduction as final mods... stuff like dirveshaft, pulleys and wheels. 200 whp and something around 2650 lbs is an achievable objective. (at that point power to weight ratio is virtually identical to a mustang v6, assuming 200whp translates into 230 bhp [11.52 lbs per hp vs 11.47 in the mustang])

Really good read. I have to say I totally agree with the OP regarding the current generation Mustang. I have driven the V6 and GT w/track pack, and I really wanted to like both cars, but at the end of the day they were not the cars for me (for the reasons the OP mentioned after actually owning one). The GT is a power house, but it is more of a one trick pony (no pun intended) and you will hardly ever be able to use the full potential of the engine unless you are tracking the car, or taking it to the dragstrip.

I am interested in hearing how the 2015's handle. I was hoping for a lighter Mustang that was more focused on handling and steering feel, but I am not sure that is what we will get.

It's not looking good for the 2015 Mustang. There's a blog post by Steeda which got its hands on a pre-production model. They're claiming it's 200-300 lbs. heaver than the outgoing model.

http://www.worldcarfans.com/11406017...an-predecessor

Wow. I really hope this ends up being not true, but that is a substantial weight gain for a car that does not even have a usable backseat...

That is a pretty big letdown considering it seemed that one of Ford's goals was lighter weight.

Yeah I posted this in the other thread, but essentially the 2015 Mustang went from being 400 lbs. lighter (reportedly) than the outgoing model to ~ 300 lbs. heavier.

That's a net +700 lbs. weight swing. Thanks Ford.

I narrowed down my new car choice to the same ones in question from the OP (2011 Mustang GT and a 2014 BRZ)... your point above was a primary reason I went with the BRZ. With the 86, I can act a complete fool on my daily commute and still be within (near?) legal limits. Or, I can drive like a sane human being and return great fuel efficiency and look good doing it.

The Mustang isn't an engaging car to drive at 2/10 or 3/10, which only encourages the driver to do increasingly stupid things for satisfaction. I found myself sideways on an on-ramp during on of my test drives, and well over 100mph on the interstate during a romp through the gears. I giggled like the OP during my drives, but I realized quickly that it was a one trick pony (pardon the pun). Massive horsepower at the expense of steering feedback, manageable brakes, driver visibility (felt like a tank), body responsiveness (again, felt like a tank)... I knew all of those things could be helped with aftermarket parts, but I also knew that it was easier to add power to a BRZ than driver feel to a Mustang.

To me, posting M3-comparable numbers is impressive, but - if the experience of getting there doesn't have the driver feedback to match, what's the point?

I am thinking about selling mine, but not for something new.. somethings 60s or 70s.. all of my cars are too damn similar so the BRZ is a road trip car only now. :shrug:

Like a 2014 Mustang? :D

haha no.. thinking MGB/MGBGT, S800, 2002, Spitfire, etc. Good american cars from those days cost too much money.

Nice!

I'd never trade my FRS for anything else unless it's something like a Ginetta G40R, in other words a car which takes higher priority over the driving experience than an FRS and is stripped down to the basics.

When you get your next Twin, I'd recommend the following mods, and in this order:

- Lightweight 17" wheels (17lbs or less and no wider than 8" with a 45-40mm offset range), ride quality on stock suspension will noticeably improve with less unsprung mass
- No wider than stock tires with a more grippy compound but not too grippy (a nice Max Performance level tire ideally designed for both wet and dry handling) - keeps mass basically near that of stock tires but with better handling characteristics
- Replace the compressible factory rubber steering rack bushings with more substantial solid ones (either Delrin or Aluminum); very inexpensive mod but one of the most worthwhile mods when it comes to sharpening up the steering and getting rid of that slight mid turn hesitation in the FRS.
- Front strut tower brace from Grimmspeed, nice improvement in ride quality over bad roads...feels more planted as well.
- Brake Master Cylinder Brace, getting rid of that excess firewall flex under hard braking really is noticeable difference.
- Dump the factory sound tube system and the large intake resonator box above the cooling fans and get a drop in panel filter. You'll notice a little better throttle response.
- Get an exhaust system that you really like.

You'll never want to go back to a Stock FRS ever again...it just takes the whole car to how it should have come stock and you'll love it more than ever.

I think you guys are being a bit harsh on the Mustang.
I traded my 2011 5.0 for an FR-S just a year ago. I sure do miss the big beast! Truth is, at these price points, you won't find a perfect sports car. The FR-S does some things brilliantly, the Mustang some too. I know the Stang made me giggle too, and the FR-S does not (but I appreciate other things in it).
Before getting the FR-S, I spent several weeks trying to get a Boss 302 but none of the dealers in my area would sell one even at sticker price. They usually wanted at least $2,000 over. I couldn't bite on that.

Totally agree on wheels and tyres. Also, when your stock brake discs wear out, get an AP Racing lightweight front brake kit as well for even more un-sprung weight savings.

Not really, it's just a different kind of car. Depending on where you fall in your preferences, it might be more tolerable to you. I'm sure there are plenty of people who would hate a BRZ, too.

I thought you said you were tired of working on cars. Just setting and constantly resetting the carbs on the cars you listed will be a part time job. :bonk:

I think people are just being realistic about its flaws, namely its weight/size, body control, seating position, steering feel, and gearshift. The OP regrets having bought the car, so I think it's fair warning.

And nearly everyone here has praised the Mustang for its V8 engine and the impressive laptimes it can put down, so there's equal parts praise and criticism going on.

OP let us know how your trade goes if you do in fact trade it in.

I expect you to loose your ass big time though.

A. Its an american made car which traditionally dont hold their value well.
B. Its a major model change year which will compound the loss of value.

My friend works for ford, in the mustang department, as a suspension engineer... and even though he offered me the X-plan that would get me into a mustang GT for less than my BRZ, I couldn't take the offer.

The OP says it all and I concur. The 5.0L is an amazing engine and having that kind of power is amazing. On the test drive, I went on a back two lane road right outside of San Francisco and was blown away. The Ford Sales person let me really rock the right pedal. However, on the way back to the dealership, there was stop and go traffic, and this is were i realized have 5.0Ls is not practical, especially as a daily driver. The feel of the Mustang was big, heavy, and brash... Not what I like.

Ultimately, I chose the BRZ (over the 2015 WRX as well:confused0068: ) because of the way the car made me feel. Yes it is under powered, yes it has a lot of first generation production flaws, yes it is small and unpractical, but I love the way it made me feel. The closest comparison I can think of is driving an older Mazda Miata.

The BRZ is a drivers car, plan and simple and the emotional response had me sold. I test drove the 2015 wrx, and it is an unbelievable machine. Everything about that car is perfect, but it does not create the same response.

I grew up in Maine, where it snows for almost half the year sometimes. Rear wheel drive was never an option for me until I moved here.

Power in the front. Manual gearbox in the middle. Power to the rear. Masculinity 101.

Thats my $.02

Some good stuff in this thread. I almost picked up a 2011 Mustang V6 when they first came out. Glad I did not and waited for the BRZ. OP just helped me realize something. Unlike my previous vehicle, 2010 Cobalt SS turbocharged with GMS1, this car can be driven hard, but still in legal limits. My Cobalt, even though it was a little 2.0L turbo, it was very easy to get in trouble with that car.

I enjoy driving my car hard, and the best thing about the BRZ/FR-S, is that you can, and still keep it legal (most of the time). If I ever were to trade this car in though, the 2015 WRX is looking very tempting. However, I hope that does not happen because I really do enjoy this car, even if it remains stock for the rest of its life. I think the power in this car is just fine :)

Some here have mentioned gas mileage/economy - the OP even commented on the "worse than expected economy" of the twins.

That hasn't been my experience - stock, I was averaging around 34.5 mpg in exclusively highway driving.

And then this happened last night on a 25 mile drive at an average of 62 mph:

http://i.imgur.com/A7eMUnX.jpg

Yes, I realize the Average MPG gauge/meter is not precise, but that's pretty freaking amazing.

Of course, I did a couple recent mods, so I'm not very close to stock anymore...

BTW, I do appreciate the write up, OP. I'm interested in Mustangs - especially the new '15, but the fact that every 5th car around here is a Mustang has always kept me from seriously considering one.

So much of the Mustang's handling is due to the massive sticky tires. I was just debating with my buddy on how you can just look at specs. He gave me a hard time when I bought a BRZ, and a hard time with my WRX. Why? Because he looks at the price of the car and the spec sheet. "My Mustang GT is just so much more car for the money". I finally threw him the keys to my WRX and said "you drive". There is just so much more to a car that what the 0-60, 1/4 mile, and skid pad numbers tell you.

Needless to say he is starting to see my side to the argument in terms of speed and specs is not everything after driving the WRX. He drove it through some winding/tight roads and I told him to really push the car coming out of the corner. He has a new appreciation for AWD :) I wish I could let him dive a BRZ..

If it's one thing I miss about my AW11, was that it was so much fun at any speed. Plus hitting redline to shift and still within city speed limits at 1st? Awesomesauce.

My old IS300? Meh. Much faster but a pig. That's how I knew where my allegiances were. If someone were to give me a Mustang GT, I would use it as a daily driver but the AW11 would still be my weekend car.

Once you have driven god's chariot (BMW E30) your perspective on all things changes. I have also considered a Mustang since the Coyote came out, but everytime I sit in one or drive one, I remember that it is not for me.

That engine deserves a better chassis. Like ours.

Yep, the P-Zeros are the track pack Mustangs are definitely pretty sticky for street tires.

Your last paragraph reminds me of the first time I stomped on the gas at apex in my old STI, and that feeling of the AWD pulling the car through the turn. Very cool feeling. Sounds like your friend got his first taste of AWD turbocharged cars. :)

I thought about it myself. I started one of those 'vs' threads a while back. I just couldn't get over how huge the mustang is and the fact that they are just everywhere. I still feel like my car is unique with the exception of race days, lol.

try out a Boss302 if you want a Mustang that handles

those things are great cars but its just hard to capture of feel of the twins. You deff notice it the more you are away from the car yet the more you drive the car the more regular the handling feels and power stands out at least for me