Track suspension advice
 

So I am looking into suspension upgrades with a strong focus on track performance though the car will still be street driven. Right now I only have the whiteline camber bolts; everything else is completely stock. I am budgeting quite a bit for this so all kinds of advice are welcome. That said, I do want to avoid the depths of the diminishing returns curve.

So far from what I have see I think I will need to replace the lower control arms on the rear and get some camber plates on the front. Looking at CSG's site I see alot of options but frankly I am still in the early stages of planning out this round of upgrades so I don't understand alot of the trade offs there.

So the question becomes, what pieces do I realistically need to be upgrading/replacing and what attributes should I focus on? I am having alot of trouble telling which parts are meant to do great things on the track and which are meant for stanced cars?

In order of importance:

Dampers
Camber plates
Rear lower control arms
Monoball top hats
Spring choice
bushings/bearings
braces

A serious setup will have at least the top 5

Feel free to post up all the questions you have and I'll do my best to answer.

So the first question I have is that I like to do one item and then do a track weekend to get a feel for the difference that makes (both to help me adapt more to the changes and also to make sure I can help others later on down the road by being able to quantify the changes I observed.). Are suspension changes amenable to this or is it better to do larger set of changes? I also would prefer to avoid waisting money on parts that are required to change on the next set of upgrades (for example, from what I can see the raceseng camber plates would require different bushings and shock nuts for stock vs. other coil overs).

Raceseng camber plates can be swapped to fit ANY damper by simply swapping the inserts; you don't pay anywhere near full price again. That's why we love them.

As you said, do it once, do it right. Getting something "for now" (cheaper suspension) will ultimately cost you more.

If you have the resources, go with high-end two-ways like the JRZ RS' Mike sells, the Motion Control units, etc. - that level of performance. Not cheap, but they make a huge difference.

So looking through the suspension parts on the CSG site, I am not seeing anything about pillow ball mounts. Is that a part of some of camber plates or some of the top end coilovers?

Also what I think is a pretty stupid question (rather not assume), but all the coilover kits are four all four corners, right?

I'm thinking of budgeting something in the range of 7-8K for the suspension assuming that doesn't get too far into the diminishing returns curve (I don't want to spend money on suspension when other things could be of more benefit).

Pillowball top mounts are generally included in the high end setups (even the entry level high end stuff).

Once you get past 6k for dampers (damper only), you start hitting that diminishing returns point; that's where motorsport grade dampers start. The gains you get a 3/4 way adjustable dampers (high speed rebound and high speed compression), and lightweight components (that are less durable).

Ok, given that my budget there is for parts only and I can go somewhat higher if needed, I think I'm in the right ball park.

From some of the other reading I've done, it sounds like 4-6K dampers don't tend to totally trash the ride on the street (still compromised, but not totally), is that true or is that more of a myth?

Also, is there any sweeping generalizations (as in abc has better consistency while xyz is more durable) to be made about the different damper manufacturers or is it really more kit specific than that?

Actually, it's the complete opposite. As a generalization:

500-1500 suspension: downgrade from stock, but gives you adjustability
2000-3000: definite performance upgrade, but ride is typically compromised
3500-6000: continued performance upgrade, ride can be as good as or better than stock with the proper valving.

Once you're looking at the high end dampers, you cannot go wrong with any of the brands (JRZ, Penske, Ohlins, Sachs). Typically, you go with whatever your local damper specialist is most familiar/comfortable with.

In our case, JRZ and Tein are local to us (within 15 miles), so we favor those brands. We also have direct access to custom valving Penske and Ohlins, as well as Bilsteins and Konis (with 50 miles of CSG)

We work manufacturer direct with JRZ, Tein, Penske, and Ohlins, but typically have JRZ, Penske, and Ohlins revalved/serviced locally.

With the high end dampers, expect to spend some extra getting a revalve or two, based on your preferences, to really dial in the damping exactly how you want.


For example, you can have a race spec damping curve, and still maintain acceptable street ride (high spring rates; firm, but not harsh ride), or a very comfortable street ride using low spring rates, but still have much improved cornering performance (low spring rates, plush, but not vague/slow to respond in cornering)


At the last Winmax 86 CUP event, the front runners in mod and supermod classes are both on JRZ suspension. The usual frontrunners in Street class (who didn't make it to this event) are on Ohlins and Teins.

Barring the driver mod, the common element is high end dampers.

Ok, that is awesome, I like broad improvements!

So how much does re-valving typically cost?

Also, what is usually the best approach for ride height? I don't really have a preference one way or another but I assume there are trade offs to stock and lowered heights, right?

Typically 150-175 per damper + parts (oil, shims, seals, etc.) + shipping if applicable

Stock height = least droop, most compression travel; lowered = more droop, less compression.

Based on your needs and chosen spring rates, we typically recommend a good compromise between suspension travel and geometry. Most cars do well with a small drop combined with higher spring rates.

We currently sit at about a 1.4" drop, but run higher spring rates than most.

Ok, question. This has been bugging me for a while.

Why do some coilovers not come with camber plates? And not Billy Bob's Garage Spec parts either, but decent names like the Bilstein B16. I would think that the top mount would be a somewhat integral part of a coilover.

They're designed to reuse the OEM stuff. Most people in the market for non-adjustable dampers are not looking to adjust their camber. It also brings the price point down a lot (this is why the KW V3 doesn't include them)

Raceseng makes a very nice camber plate for the Bilsteins, if you need camber adjustability.

I honestly don't need coilovers, aside from the coolness aspect. I was just curious, because I've seen good namebrands go without top mounts, and I know most people consider the OEM top mounts to be a little fluffy.

If and when I get so far in my build that I need adjustable camber beyond a bolt, I'm going to do RCE Tarmac/Bilstein B8 with HVT top mounts.

About how much track seat time would you recommend be done on stock suspension before deciding on how exactly (if any) the stock suspension should be modified? Or should that also wait until one has gone to one's desired aftermarket tires and wheels and then deciding where to take the suspension (if anywhere beyond stock)? (btw, just signed up with NASA. going to be registering soon for my first track day HPDE... FINALLY)

While being able to drive on the stock suspension is a skill on it's own, suspension can be done at any time, IMO.

The problem is, with an inexperienced driver, the setup/preference part is not there, so you need someone to set the car up FOR you.

Power is always recommended against for novices, as you don't want to have that to lean on as a crutch.

Precisely.

As far as power, I've gone with engine back exhaust and tune, and that's where I'm staying for the time being for that exact reason.

OEM Top Mounts, when mounted correctly, have some compliance in them to reduce the noise and vibration transmitted to the chassis. Also, some sanctions require you to use OEM top mounts based on rules.

The reality is, OEM shocks are actually pretty good from the factory and it's going to be hard to beat for how well they perform and how smooth they operate from the factory. I recommend picking up a set of Raceseng camber plates for the OEM coilover and SPL rear LCA to dial in the desired alignment setup in the future if you intend to stay stock coilovers. This allows you to dial in the car's handling characteristics a little better while having sufficient suspension travel. This also allows you to utilize your tires a little more efficiently. ;) If you don't like the wheel gap, Swift Spec-R springs (released recently) are some of the lightest and best lowering springs on the market. :thumbsup:

How are the Spec-R springs in terms of streetability compared to the Sport springs? Just as good?

Springs are springs. Spec-R is one of the stiffest optimal spring rate you may want to run on OEM shocks.

Meaning? Springs don't really affect ride comfort on uneven (read: street) surfaces?

Ride comfort comes from proper valving. Increasing spring rate increases slight roll resistance and also increases weight transfer response. Of all the Spec-R setups I've driven on multiple platforms, they appear to make the car ride a little smoother. The obvious downside to lowering springs in general is decreased suspension travel hence why the Spec-R springs have a minor drop as opposed to other kits on the market. Setup is all about balance.

I'm not all that big on massive drop. Just enough to clean up the looks is all I want. Max drop for me would be 1".

Thanks. This is helping me cross off unnecessary items from my mod list.

Dampers
Alignment (including hardware)
Wheels & tires
Brakes

^ All at once if possible. It's a broader concept of 'suspension' but IMHO you need to consider how everything on the chassis works together when it comes to effective track setup.

If you don't have somebody to set up your dampers for you I'd go with the single adjustable Ohlins given your budget. Not much point in multi adjustable coil overs if you don't know how to set them up. If you have somebody to set the dampers up for you then Bob's your uncle. KWs, Teins, JRZs, whatever. .

I mention tires because there's a pretty big difference between the OEM rubber, extreme performance rubber and the semis licks/slicks that some folks like to run.

Brake upgrades for safety and consistency, plus if you're going to go with a BBK it might influence your wheel & rubber choices.

Alignment is pretty easy to figure out once everything else is dialed in.

Generally speaking, quality parts and fewer variables = less head scratching and more time spent focusing on driving technique.

IMO. :)

Already done Essex Sprint kit and two different rim and tire combos (have to fit over the BBK) where one is street rubber and the other is track rubber. So I'm at the incremental point of upgrading dampers/coilovers and other alignment controlling components. Well, after I've had the roll bar seats and harnesses installed that is.

That's good info to know. Seems you've put some thought into it and are going for a pretty hard core, track biased setup.

With data like that no doubt that somebody like the CSG guys can cook you up a really focused and effective damper and alignment setup.

If you're going to the extent of roll bars, harnesses and race seats and will be running a BBK with R comps I'm thinking that something really focused such as CSG-fied JRZs would be right up your alley.

:party0030:

One of the things to think about, how much track time versus street time? Is this 50/50 track and street or more 10 events per year track and the rest street. This is something I just finished going over with a customer also. Once you start getting into higher-end more Motorsport based Coilovers, depending on what the design is you can severely compromise ride quality. That's why knowing how often you're tracking would be good to know.

Cheers,
Jason

It is a little too early to say what my rate will be in the end, but for May I am doing either four or six days (depending upon what I do this weekend). I suspect that I'll probably settle at four days a month (ie 48 a year).

Total BS! :bs:


If you have ever rode with a set of Penkes, Sachs, Ohlins, etc...you would know that they ride more comfortable than stock!! Its all in the valving and how that valving is match to your springs, your vehicle.

Buy Cheap, Buy Twice!!! (Been there, done that!)

Good reference here:

http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets18.html

That is an awesome read and sure to be quite helpful!

I don't remember saying "all" coilovers either :bonk: Some of the higher-end ones that are really race-bred can compromise daily driving comfort because of valving (ie. designed for flat, smoother race track surfaces), and that's not BS. I never said ALL coilovers. There are definitely ones out there that can be good for both, you just have to make sure you research what you're getting.

:popcorn: Dis gonna b gud

No, really its not.

I know you're J/K, but I just watched Jason@DSG & CSG Mike/Dave have the worst exchange in another thread that started with good intent but ended up being hugely FUBAR'd. The CSG guys have a lot of real world knowledge, seat time and experience. They look to inform the public, it's great. It was obvious that Jason@DSG has less of that so it might have been wise to defer to CSG's know-how. He didn't. Despite this lack of data and lesser experience, he still spoke from authority, but gave little specifics. For that, CSG absolutely buried him in that thread. In some ways that came off negative towards CSG, even though their intent was noble. They're fighting all the dis-info and hype out there. Everyone looked not so great in that thread. Anyhow, this thread was going pretty well, so I hope it doesn't devolve into the mess the other one did.
:respekt:

I've said it multiple times elsewhere, but I'm an engineer. I see exchanges like this one and my first impression usually is not in the negative. It's a heated exchange between two parties who have some experience in what they're talking about. I haven't exactly seen it get personal and therefore it hasn't gotten ugly.

And I'm enjoying all the info that comes flooding out in the exchange.

Then again, I'm used to directly-spoken folks. It's just part of what I'm used to thanks to my career.

I may be a civilian and an engineer, but I deal with Marines on a consistent basis. You want zero filter? I'll get insta-banned. :bellyroll:

Back to OP. Stock setup has been a good setup. In fact on some of the local tracks, the stock suspension/power/aero factory car with pads, fluid, and 140-200TW tire holds a record lap time faster than 98% of the setups present in the community. ;)

I'm an analyst, I deal with multiple interested parties, executives, and data of all sorts. Direct is my preference as well. In my experience disagreeing without being disagreeable typically is more productive than a flame war. Some enjoy that kind of conflict (popcorn, dis gun be gud, etc), some do not. http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=65642 . Personally I think exchanges of idea are more productive when cool heads show up. Andy at RaceComp and Robftss are notorious for this. In any case, this is off topic. So let's get back on topic.
:cheers:

Dennis has certainly provided enough to keep someone busy for a week or two taking in all that is on his site. If nothing else, it will expose a person to many of the issues related to building a successful performance car. Not all of it, however, can be taken as gospel. (I know, big surprise.) For example, the following passage from this page: http://farnorthracing.com/autocross_secrets9.html

"But it was that little bump that was interesting. That bump indicates the area where a human can outbrake the ABS. If the driver is properly threshold braking, properly modulating the brake pedal force to stop just short of activating the ABS, he can stop the vehicle faster than if the ABS is actively pulsing.

My own testing proved it. On concrete, with race tires on, I could consistently outbrake the ABS system."

Not on my car. Period.

You must test this for yourself - using your car, with the tires and brakes you run at the track, at the temperatures at which they run on-track, and someplace where it's safe to do it (note that tracks generally prefer that you not engage in this sort of activity on their property).

I did it by running my car up to 70 MPH in 3rd gear and testing the brakes at the following "ABS levels":

1) Full-on ABS;
2) 3/4 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down a bit);
3) 1/2 ABS (i.e., full-on ABS immediately backed-down halfway);
4) 1/4 ABS;
5) Just out of the ABS (as Dennis describes above).

My shortest stop is #2, and it's 6' shorter than #1. The others were longer stops than #1. This is on a car with an ABS ECU designed around a quarter-century ago. As always, your mileage is almost guaranteed to vary.

Moral of the story: trust, then verify - i.e., confirm for yourself as much as you personally can when being presented with seemingly factual information; a healthy curiosity/skepticism is a valuable aid as you work towards becoming your own expert.

Thank you for that blurb. This is what we do all the time. We are skeptical at claims, we test claims, we assess those claims, and then we validate and verify claims. We could very well change our position if we are proven that there is strong evidence of those claims. It does help that we have a large variety of cars to work with in Southern California.

On another note, suspension setup is more or less similar, but settings are always different. An AWD car cannot be setup the same was as a FR, MR, or FF setup. Likewise to other cars due to different wheelbase lengths, factory aero, and chassis stiffness.

+1

Apples-to-apples.