Insurance companies forced to cover track day damages?
 

So I was looking at buying Track Day insurance and came across a porsche club thread which pointed out that the Ontario Court of Appeals actually ruled IN FAVOUR of a driver who crashed their car at a HPDE and was denied coverage by their insurer, Aviva.

Link to the ruling:
http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc...11onca313.html

The "speed test" and "race" is part of the Ontario Automobile Policy Owner's Policy in which it states :

1.4.6 You agree not to use or allow anyone to use the automobile in a race or speed test or for any illegal trade or transportation.

So since a track day is not 'timed' it is not a speed test or a race.

Thoughts?

I think id like to see a few other people crash without insurance first, go try it.

Probably a fluke, and if he had to take insurance companies to court, wonder how much that cost him.

He won the battle, but probably lost the war. I'd like to know if this person was able to get insurance at reasonable rates from regular insurers :( :(

it matters if its a timed event thats why people get covered during hpde events in the ones i have seen, but im sure every insurance is different id just trailer it home and say i crashed.

that's fraud

and good luck getting a police report on a mangled car in your garage :party0030:

I don't think they could actually use that as grounds to not sell you insurance.
It depends what the details on how they can consider you "high risk".
Not paying insurance, crashing a lot, convictions can make you high risk, but arguing with your insurance company can't.

I had heard about this case before but half assumed insurance companies would have covered that hole by now.

That being said, there was an engineer at my employer who was one of the earlier adopters and crashed his FR-S at Cayuga a month into ownership. Rumour has it he got his insurance to pay for it... :iono:

I'm going to email FSCO and find out, my understanding is that all insurance offerings basically have to match the O.A.P and they can't change it, so since the O.A.P doesn't exclude HPDE then they can't.

Regular companies don't have to sell you insurance... they can deny you for whatever reason they want, and if you're flagged like this you'll likely be stuck with Facility insurance, which is about 5 times what normal insurance costs.

Regular insurance companies (at least in Ontario) cannot arbitrarily come up with reasons to deny you insurance, or deny you for whatever reason they want. They can only deny you insurance if you fall into the denial rules approved by FSCO.

you don't need a police report for an insurance claim

so they're just going to take your word for it?

granted i don't know much about the insurance process, but given the recent crackdowns on fraud i doubt something like this would work for anything other than a fender bender.

if you roll your car i think questions will be asked.

yes they take your word for it unless it seems super suspicious, but if you are saying i crashed into an object and towed the car home myself there isn't much questions. You pay your deductible and get your car fixed, i am an auto claims adjuster and can tell you you really would not have much trouble doing this.

in Canada?

in the us and i cant see it being that different you just need to have a good story

well now, i guess you're right, nothing different up here in the cold, 52nd state.

i looked it up and you can do it without a police report, the only time its good to get a report if its multiple vehicles so someone cant blatantly lie.

if i roll my car, and call my insurance company, they're just going to swallow it that i rolled my car on regular streets (somehow), crawled out, called a tow truck, and towed it home nilly willy with no witnesses?

and they wont have anyone come take a look at it or ask more questions.. like "how did you do it?"

"Ok sir let me get this straight... Your car was fine when you went into walmart, and when you came out, your car had one whole side smashed in by ..... looks like a tire wall, all four of your tires were flat spotted, and someone jammed a bunch of weeds up under your air dam......?" "Ok, let me get going on that paperwork!"

when you call the claim in they will ask what happened you can tell them you rolled it and had someone tow it to your home or shop, an adjuster will be assigned to it and look at it and say yup it was rolled and write you an appraisal. denying a loss gets tricky they have to be able to prove without question that what you say did not happen. as long as your story makes sense you will be good, think about it people crash their cars all the time get it home then call a claim in its nothing different.

guess i've watched The Rainmaker too many times

time to practice those story-making skillz

plus everyone is nice in canada there is no way they'll think you are lying

Touché

If you're talking HPDE, Why not just do this and not worry about it?

http://www.ontrackinsurance.com/quick-quote.aspx

If you're a club member, the estimate when I ran it is $170 for two consecutive days for $25,000.00 coverage.

That's a lot cheaper in time and money than filing a lawsuit.

because...

https://maps.google.ca/maps?q=canada...Canada&t=m&z=3




our track day insurance industry is in its infancy, there are some things currently in the works but nothing big yet.

Good point.

Maybe you did already... but I'd check with them and see if they'd consider extending into Canada.

They don't have to deny you, but there's no laws enforcing how they price things for you. Plus, writing off a car on a track will definitely allow them to deny you coverage.

You should really research insurance fraud rates in Ontario, especially in parts of the GTA. It's beyond ridiculously high, and companies aren't stupid at all. Companies here can (and will) drop coverage after an accident if you've lied about modifications, etc.

Insurance companies also have to submit how they're going to price out the rates to FSCO. FSCO will take a look at several factors (including estimated profitability), and either approve or deny the submission. Premium pricing is governed so insurance companies can't price premiums however they feel like...whether it is fair or not after all is said and done is a different story....

But aside from that, I would agree that someone would have a very tough time getting coverage after writing a car off on the track.

PS. My line of work is indirectly involved with insurance, insurance product configuration, and insurance product rating.

I think a good rule of thumb is, if you can't afford to roll your car off a cliff, then don't track the car unless you have track insurance. It's the reason why I bought a cheap Integra to track instead of my BRZ. If I track my BRZ, it'll have track insurance.

that's not the issue is not about premiums, it's about whether a rolled or severly damaged car at a "timed" (ie, speed test/racing) will even get repaired by standard Canadian insurers.

If a guy gets drunk and drives his car into a house, he's covered right?

I wouldn't fault a guy for lying about being timed on a track or not, assuming he didn't do it on purpose and paid the deductible IMO.

I am a broker and have called a senior adjuster with royal and will post the answer. my guess is like Aviva, most companies would deny coverage and let you sue them. they would probably know they would lose if the Aviva case is real, but they would still want you to sue them. since each case is different they would hope for the best.

I called 3 companies and they said they would deny the claim and if the insured had the balls to sue them they would consider paying the claim depending on the claim and circumstances. they don't like going to court as judges could be frs/brz owners who lap!!

Getting a lot of mixed answers. I would like to hear someone who is a canadian adjuster. I know in BC, ICBC is full crock of shit. Interesting topic, Many friends have said no to going with me because no insurance. Might call one of these days and inquire about where the grey area is. If it is true and you can claim it as long as you are not timed/race event and you are just tracking. I can see how one might get away with it.

If you're charged with DUI, nope.

I know someone that wrote off a car, which the insurance paid out for, when he was found guilty of DUI (he was charged at the scene, but fought it) the insurance company sent him a bill for every cent they had paid out for the accident (which was legally binding). Luckily for him he didn't hit anyone else, so he was only out whatever they paid for writing off his car.

wp is right in that the insurance co would pay for all damages to the third party , wouldn't pay for the insureds car that was written off , but yes would bill the insured for all damages paid on their behalf. we paid out over 400,000 for an accident from an unlicensed drunk driver driving my insureds car. she wasn't even in the car but got billed the entire 400,000 for the damages and lost her house. ouch, but it reminds us to be sure who we lend our cars to are licensed. happens all the time cuz who checks to see if their friend is actually licensed?

You will get nothing BUT mixed answers on here as everybody seems to think their rules "must" apply to everybody else. It is pretty clear that this is not the case. I think the answer has been accurately given for Ontario above but I believe that BC's rules are radically different (I KNOW Alberta's are). The best bet is to ask a real expert in your province/state to get the actual answer. To say "But I read it on a forum" is NEVER going to work with your company!!!!!!

I will definitely be purchasing insurance next time I go lapping, just because I would rather pay $170 extra a couple times a year then chance losing $40k worth of car and mods...

i agree you should just buy track insurance. it is clear the companies in all provinces would deny first then pay if forced by a court but believe me if they pay you will be cancelled then get to pay psycho rates in the facility or non standard market. yea yea they may pay but if above contributor is correct that track insurance is $170 then one would be stupid/too cheap not to buy it. I deal with the companies daily and their mindset and people interpreting rules are less than brilliant at best. adjusters pay what they must not what they should.