Dealers
 

Hello,

I will not name this dealer and I admit I have had some really bad experiences with new car dealers. But I always expect to be treated like a person about to spend thousands of dollars, hope springs eternal.

My local dealer has a FR-S on display. I'm a 50 year old guy who can afford a new car and I intend to buy a new FR-S, but new car dealers really tick me off. They all seem to be know nothing, are only interested in getting your money right now and then going moving on to the next customer (victim).

Visit One:

Met at the door and politely escorted to the display car. Told it was one of the 86 winners so it was locked up ( fair enough ). Salesman shows up, yea their taking orders, $5000 deposit (non refundable ) up front. Has no other info except that there will be some cars in the future.

No info on colors, etc... He informs me that none of the potential FR-S's are spoken for and they have no deposits. But the "inventory control manager" would be in later, he takes my contact info and says he will call me with more info. No call.

Visit Two:

Wife and I made our way to the car, another salesman shows up and informs me that this particular car was the first one in the USA and they had been chosen to display it (this is about 2 weeks after the first deliveries, I believe).

Am I on the list? What list I ask, the interested buyer list he says. So he takes my contact info, again, and checks the list, I'm not on it. So I add my name, BTW this FR-S has been on display for 6-7 days and I'm only number 5 on the list. As I'm filling out he list he informs me that this is a really fast car with 260 hp. I correct him and he suddenly remembers the truth.

He goes on to tell me that when the cars come in they will send out an email blast.

So in short, they don't follow up with serious buyers. They know nothing or what they know is wrong. As a serious buyer they intend to contact me not with a phone call or an offer to test drive the FR-S, but with an email blast. I don't even know what that is, should I duck?

As we are leaving my wife stops and looks at a Yaris which is like 3/4 of a small car. She starts asking me questions about a car I wouldn't pay the sales tax on, but within ear shot is another salesman leaning on the showroom glass window, texting, he never looked up.

As for the pricing, the FR-S is just a car, by the pound it requires no more or less machining, painting, etc... than any other Subaru. A fully equipped Toyota Avalon was on display in the same showroom. It would make at least 2 FR-S's, it was 23K, the FR-S is 25-7K with much less equipment. Seems this is what the market will bear pricing.

I wish my experience had been different, but it seems all car dealers are the same.

Hopefully an FR-S owner soon.

DP

Sorry about your experiences. I've had some bad experiences at dealerships but I've had some good ones as well. I wish you were in CA because I personally know some good dealerships out here.

***In the future, bypass the moronic salesman and deal with the internet fleet manager. They usually avoid the games and the bs...

Man thats sad. I wish you lived in So Cal. I would have made it up to you. I have to admit I am just a young trying to make a living. Not a lot or people are in the know on this car. But thats no excuse to treat a customer bad. DP if you are ever in LA you can ride with MrFRsLa.

I think what you're paying for in the FR-S is the research and polish that went in to it. Not to mention RWD (now metioned :P). It's not fair to compare it to an Avalon, that recipe hasn't changed.

I understand development cost and that is a good point. But RWD "technology is hardly new and I'm sure the Avalon didn't get any cheaper as the develop cost were amortized.

The FR-S is premium product and they should get what they can, I surely do in my business. But to play games for years like they were struggling to meet a price point is a little ingenious.

DP

That S/B disingenuous, spell checker got me.

DP

A deposit that can't be refunded... I can't believe they do that =x Especially when they can't even provide approx. ETAs. They probably don't push Scion that hard there.

Oh my gawd yes! Some salesmen can take all the fun out of buying a new car. I hope you're able to find a good one before they drive you nuts.

I hear Jeff at Longo is pretty good. Almost worth the trip out to Cali. And just think, your FR-S would be broken in by the time you got it home.

A deposit that can't be refunded... I can't believe they do that =x Especially when they can't even provide approx. ETAs. They probably don't push Scion that hard there.

This dealer spends millions on every available media outlet every year...his face is every where.

DP

Dude, when I ordered my FR-S, I only wrote them a check for $500. They're just holding on to it and not gonna cash it. When the car gets here, I'll just write him a new check with the whole amount that I'll put down. That whole thing about it being non-refundable is wrong imo.

I agree, I've bought real estate with $500 in earnest money.

DP

That wasn't Keith Pierson Toyota in Orange Park was it? They were giving me the same shit last week. I just went to a different dealer. (And had a way better experience)

I know what you mean. I think I know what dealer you are talking about.

I hear you, I've been shopping for a car about half a year now, I'm trying to get a FRS now. I hate dealers. I've had at least 3 experiences where I contact a dealer, tell them I want to buy a car and just never hear anything back.

Same issue here. I emailed 6 different dealers, called a couple more. Only 2 responded and they weren't exactly helpful. I wonder if they even know this car is being released.

Last month I was trying to buy a 2013 Genesis Coupe and ran into the same issue. I have a check sitting here from my bank plus a nice down payment. I swear none of these dealers are interested in selling me a car, even when I walk in ready to put down a deposit.

While everyone is tripping about deposit and pricing. I was pissed at the fact that the dealer claimed it was a "fast car" boasting "260hp". Fucking great, the future for us FRS owners looks oh so promising.:thumbdown:

When I was shopping for the gen coupe I had the same issue, I literally argued on the phone with a guy about interior colors and then another guy about cruise control while sitting in the car! One guy was not interested in selling me a 2.0T because it was not fast enough for me.

Today I argued on the phone with a few dealers about the FR-S, some didn't even know what I was talking about.

Just now I got an OTD price of a hair under $29,000 plus they wanted a $500 non-refundable deposit. Sales tax is only 3% here on new cars and the MSRP was $25,094 and the doc fee was $299.50. The car had floor mats as the only option. While the dealer down the road was $26,200 OTD but couldn't get the color I wanted until the next batch comes in. They actually stepped up and tried for a week to get me the car too. I'll probably just wait it out and stick with them.

I hate when people have experiences like this, I've been in the car business for nine years and can't stand when that happens. But please understand we are not all like that and not all dealerships are like that. I printed out your complete post and will be reading it in our Saturday morning meeting to all my sales people so they remember how not to be :mad0259:

btw, what Avalon is only 23k? did u mean 33k?

Without naming the dealer we gain absolutely nothing from reading your post.

Rather than posting, well, actually regardless, I think you should contact Toyota National HQ as they are the ones who need to really hear this, and devise a way to correct such disrespectful approach to selling cars.

Here's the contact information for reaching Toyota Corporate Customer Care:

Phone: 800-331-4331
Fax: 310-468-7814
Mon - Fri, 5:00 am - 6:00 pm PST
Sat, 7:00 am - 4:00 pm PST


Now, as for sales of cars in general, in the USA, the dealers are independent, unlike in Japan, and while most are trained on a pretty comprehensive guidelines of Toyota's excellent sales guideline manuals, some dealers, especially those remotely situated choose to not use this, or distort it.

Just for clarification, Scion's "PURE PRICE" is simply a 30 days FIX on an advertised price. It is not a FIX on MSRP sale. So if the dealer says, advertises, or mentions in any way a certain price, high or low, they must honor that for every customer, for 30 days. It also means if that dealer decided to LOWER the heavily marked up price, he isn't allowed to do so for 30 days since he first marked it up. This means, even if he will LOSE that customer to another dealer who was willing to sell for less.

Because of this, areas with more competing dealers will not mark up most of SCION models, and this is true for even the overly demanded FRS. The dealers will gain more from moving the FRS as much as possible so they can be allocated more of them in the next shipment. Dealers who "hoard" and price gouge any SCION and move less of them, will suffer from getting less of them in the future.

When this happens, their ONLY method of getting more FRS will be to do a "dealer trade" where they would ship another car to a dealer who has the FRS available, at whatever asking price of the dealer who has them. Doing this though, makes the original dealer's cost of the FRS much greater, as MOST dealers won't want to trade an FRS for anything with customers of their own waiting. IN the case of combined scenario of dealer trade and PURE PRICE to customers, the offending dealer has to make a choice of losing cash on the sale by doing a trade, or simply stuck not being able to sell the FRS till his next allocation, if there are any... Toyota's policy therefore makes a natural selection of best dealers getting the best stock, and penalizes offending dealers his ability to sell a popular product item.

So all this mark up game does not benefit the dealership for the FRS or any SCION products, nor the customers who visit the dealers who are not any longer, best equipped to sell the FRS.

My suggestions to you, therefore, is to go to a dealership who DOES follow the guidelines, and who do sell a LOT of SCIONS because of them following how they should sell, according to the manual by Toyota HQ. They will be happy to offer you great deals on the FRS, and are just happy to MOVE them out of the lot and into your garage as more they do this, the more they can allocate themselves more SCIONs including the FRS.

Most dealers in the USA will also arrange for reasonable shipping as well. And proper dealers who do this, usually keep a very orderly list of interested buyers, and usually by $500 REFUNDABLE deposits, so they can hold you interest of color and transmission choice. Many times, shipping a car from one of Largest volume dealers in California is comparable or cheaper than asking premiums for rural areas of the US. And they are fully capable of handing shipment, title in your state, and all taxes, and more importantly, getting it faster, with much larger allocations they have over a dealer who can't move Scion. For example, Longo Scion and Penske Scion in southern CA, moves about 19,000 Toyota vehicles per year, and they would have that much more chunk of allocations for all Toyota cars. Also, because the FRS to the best dealers are ALLOCATED, they have the exact VIN numbers and colors/transmission, and how many, and expected date of arrival, unlike a dealer who has to resort to trade, who can't get any definite information on any FRS beyond their small allocation. It is also pertinent to speak to a fleet manager class sales person when calling so complex sale of remote purchase requirements are explained properly and made easy for a buyer, as floor sales person may not be able to handle such requests proficiently, but are working on bonus structures... A properly managed dealer operations are always equipped to handle this, and teams of sales people will always be working in good order to direct each customers to the properly trained person if he/she is not capable and to handle each order well.

I hope this helps... And hopefully, the dealers where you visited will be corrected by your report to Toyota HQ for the better for all Toyota fans here.

Hello,

Thanks for the meaningful info. The dealer in question is in an area with 1 million people and is a very heavy advertiser and is located on a major intersate. So I "assume" he moves a reasonable # of cars.

I was pretty sure they knew what was coming in and when, that is why I was so pissed off. This dealer or at least the floor help seem to work on a "money today" sales model and I doubt that a salesman gets anything on a deposit until the sale is completed.

Given the turnover rate in cars salesman, most of them probably don't figure they will be at that dealership in 4-6 weeks, so why screw with a customer that they will never benefit from...or so it seems.

DP

To a certain extent you're right, and most salespeople not only don't stick around long but aren't trained on customer retention. I'll admit, even I get lazy about calling some people back after their first visit if I don't think they're genuinely interested. I do my best, but if I don't have a strong feeling it can be hard to motivate me. And I don't get 2-3 customer opportunities a day, so I really need to maximize my 3-5 opportunities I get in a week. In your case though, someone should have been ready to find you all the information possible, because in a month's time they could be not only getting a nice commission from your sale, but establishing a good customer-dealer relationship which could result in referral business and/or repeat business!

Hello,

I'm sure it's a tough business and you do it for a living and I don't, but I'll give you tip anyway.

If a 50 year old guy shows up during normal m-f work hours, with this wife, to look at a new and relatively cheap sports car, you may want to try and work with him. I bet he has other things to do and if the wife shows up and doesn't have negative things to say, it is probably a sale.

DP

First of all:
I want to tell you that the way you are treated is direct reflection your attitude. Sales people make money selling, they sell by treating you right, so think about it. Why would they treat you like garbage if you didn't ask them too with your attitude?

I sell Toyotas and Scions. And I can tell you there has been almost no training or info on the FR-S passed on to us. So if your dealer isn't into the car, then they prolly don't sit on here reading about it all day like we do. It's not their fault they haven't gotten any info on it yet.

Next, we meet a lot of people everyday. It can sometimes be a hassle to remember every single one. Your first sales person may have gotten caught up in a sale, which can take hours as I'm sure you know, after you and not had a chance to add you, then forgot. It happens, it doesn't make them a shitty person.

You also have to understand it from their point of view. You came in asking about a car that he doesn't know anything about, [because it's not out yet] to include when it will be available for you to drive or buy. And as far as the $5k deposit - thats because they most likely get a lot of kids or whatever that ask about it and want to lead the store on and waste their time, so they put a rediculous deposit amount on it so that only someone who is truly serious will bother. - Personally I don't agree with this, but that's prolly why they said that.

There were a couple other things in there that were pretty annoying/offense to read but, the last thing I'll mention is the thing about the Avalon.

I have never seen an Avalon, much less a "fully equipped" Avalon for that price. If you really saw a loaded Avalon for that price, you better go back and buy it like, yesterday, because it's worth about $40,000.




:sigh::fighting0040:

Got my flame suit on.

First, I was excited when I saw they even had a FR-S, I had expected to just talk to knowledge person, sales manager, etc... So, I don't think my demeanor was poor but I could be wrong.

Either way you are defending two sales people that lost a sure sale for themselves and probably for the dealership as a whole. I've never had a problem buying a car before but maybe I'm just old and cranky now.

As for the Avalon, yea you right, I don't what I saw on the sticker that made me think it was 23k. It appeared to be a new car sticker, but clearly a new Avalon is more than that.

DP

Unfortunately, them the breaks and yes, yes you are ;)
Like 1 hotel reviewers on TripAdvisor, joining up a forum just to whinge about a less that stellar experience tends not to garner loads of sympathy. No one took your money or swindled you, you just wasted some time out of a couple of your days.

I hope if you do track down a good dealer and have a good experience, you return to the forum to tell us about it and help direct consumers somewhere positive.
:thumbup:

I have been lurking for several years, I just never had anything to say before.

In fact I have been amazed at how much has been said over the last 3 years by people that seemingly didn't have anymore info than was available to everyone else.

As for the car, I'm way past looking for sympathy, I was just wondering if my experience was typical. Based on your response and some of the others it sounds about 50-50.

Odds are in my favor, there is a subby dealer about a mile from the Toyota guy. Never considered myself a Subaru guy, but it is same car. I'm sure some dealer will take my check...but then that just seems to piss of the F & I guy when he discovers I don't want to finance or buy any of his goods.

DP

I would never put down a non-refundable desposit. That is crazy.

I used to work for a dealer and yes, nobody but me really knew about the new cars and they would often try to play mind games with the customers. It's all about trying to get as much money from them as possible rather than working hard to meet their wants and needs and being well educated to answer their questions.

Went to the local Subaru dealer, very polite, sold out, other dealer in town sold out.

Did a test drive in a Genesis 2.0 turbo, nice car, very solid feel, but the power was very flat off the boost. Salesman took my info and was going to look for a 3.4 v-6 2012 version, so far I have heard nothing from him. BTW the Hyundia guy had no idea what a BRZ or FR-S was.

Called another Scion dealer in my area, 3-4 cars around June 1, none spoken for. Satellite radio is a huge deal for me, I drive 40 miles each way with not radio for about half of that. Salesman on the phone assured me that S radio could be added with no problem, he had talked to the experts.

Is that true, does the existing unit support S radio or do they have to change the whole head unit. Finally he took my info an will call me the minute they come in.

Per the manual, it does, with an optional radio. The manual for it is online at the Scion website here.

" Must have XM Satellite Radio receiver, antenna and service

installed at an additional charge to listen to XM Satellite Radio.

Reference starts page 31. Since this is the same radio they have in other cars I would think they would have the unit in available.

I just took the xm receiver from my 2011 XB and plugged it into the FRS radio and worked perfectly. So anyone wanting satelite radio, you can just order the xm receiver with the XB fit kit and your done.:thumbup:

Let me give you some free advice. The customer is always right. And we are talking about a $25k car here. As far as the salesman getting a pass for not knowing anything about a car that is friggin sitting in their showroom? We are talking a Scion here. When is the last time any Scion generated this kind of interest in the automotive world? This is the most expensive car Scion sells. So yeah, I don't blame the OP for being frustrated. I work hard at my job, and it often requires me to research new technologies and keep up with latest trends. And my company does not hand me a training manual or send me to a conference. It is called job security and self motivation.

Honestly, you are the type of salesman that I would walk away from and not look back. There are plenty of hungry salesmen/saleswomen out there that will put the customer first and go the extra mile to make a sale, and to know what it is they are selling. It is not like Scion has 100 different models on the showroom floor.

it goes both way really but imho, if you make money doing something, selling cars or doing whatever, it's on you to keep up with the changes. it doesn't mean you have to know everything every time, but when you don't, the responsibility is on you to find out.

i pay out of pocket to do what they call continuing education in my industry all the time, 12 hours a year either going to conferences, training sessions or buying and learning new books. the company would pay if it benefits the company immediately but to keep up with newest building codes, design codes, standards, it's all on me.

hope you find one soon DP considering you seem to hustle quite a bit trying to get one :D

You're absolutely right. Some sales people are jack wagons.


That being said, you need to understand something about sales that you're over looking, and maybe don't know, and please remember I'm not trying to be smug or rude.

We're looking at selling maybe 10 FR-S', and maybe 100 Scions in general for the year - for example at my dealership - vs. say.... 2000 Toyota's and Toyota has about 70+ models/trims/packages 'sitting on the showroom floor' - it's a lot to learn and keep track of.

For someone who sells these cars, they are focused on what's available and what makes money so they can pay they're bills. I don't know why that seems like such a crime to people, that a salesperson want to make money. That's how we get paid, that's how we keep the lights on and our kids fed.

Dealerships are supposed to have Scion Certified salespeople, and Scion managers, and some don't have that. It just gets lumped in with Toyota. In that situation Scion gets neglected and yes, the customer [and the stores potential sales] suffers.

And honestly, I don't know why I'm a salesperson you would walk from. Because I'm willilng to give someone the benefit of a doubt? Because I'm tired of people indirectly bashing me on here? If you're not in car sales, it's hard to understand how difficult it can be.

Being on top of a truck in Iraq with a machine gun wasn't as stressful as this job is. But I get treated the same way - like shit by the people I'm trying to help, because you have preconceived notions about who I am.



Anyways, enjoy your FR-S where ever you get it tho, I can't wait to get mine!:burnrubber:

Agreed, I sold Porsche & Audi way back, and even selling higher-end cars some people just do not get it. Respect.

Sorry thill, sometimes the customer is not always right. Sometimes the customer is simply unreasonable. Unfortunately due to the stigma that car salesman carry, they often get treated like crap; regardless of who the individual salesman or woman is.

That's what we do....pretty simple.

I try to treat everyone with equal respect and don't judge or pre-qualify.

BUT it must be said, since the subject is being covered in this thread:

Even though I'm a professional and have been in the business many years and keep up on my knowledge, a lot of people come in with a chip on their shoulder.

A lot of people are very mis-informed as to what they can get a vehicle for via Edmunds and other sites that don't have their facts straight.

A lot of people have dealt with some shady salesmen and dealerships and treat me like a piece of shit.



How many times have you heard someone say "They went to a lot to test drive XXX Hot car out at the moment with no intentions to buy, but wanted to rag it out for the fun of it....waste a little time"?


Or about how they wore out the salesman to the last penny?


It does get a little old when you have something like a Vette, WRX, or GTO on the used lot and every Tom, ****, and Harry comes in and wants to do exactly that....rag the piss out of it and waste your time when you could be doing something more constructive.

Sometimes you get three people on said car in one day.....or say at least five a week.

Once in awhile I eat my words, but being in the business for 15 years you tend to have a good idea of what buyers and trends are like.

The objective of a customer buying a car is to get it for the least amount of money as possible, and it's our job to make as much as we can on the deal.

They also want retail for trade. This is often the only way a dealer can make money on a deal.

With dealers trying to one-up each other, often they'll dip into "Holdback" money....money that's buried into the car that's not supposed to be negotiable.....and used to not be.

This helps the dealer owner advertise, keep the lights on, and pay the staff.

I know most buyers are not sympathetic to this and could care less if we make anything or go out of business.


So we have to "Whore out" the new car because competition is so fierce, and the trade is a clapped out POS that smells like smoke and dogs, but the customer owes 4 grand more than what it's worth, blah blah blah....

Anyways....

Sometimes I love this business and sometimes I hate it.

Gotta take the good with the bad, and I can't see myself doing anything else.

My cars were just rated # 1 by Consumer Reports.

Every car we offer is a top safety pick according to IIHS.

We have the best resale value in the entire automobile industry.
(So someone could actually *Gasp* pay the MSRP Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price and still sell it for a profit anytime after the first year of ownership, the most depreciation heavy year for any car)


We also have one of the best warranties out there....we take care of all wear and tear items for the first 3 years 36k miles.

All the customer has to do is put gas in it and change the oil a couple of times, as we cover EVERYTHING bumper to bumper....Wiper blades, bulbs, Brakes, Batteries, etc...no questions.


Despite all this, my car is only worth $500 under invoice to you, and your rental car trade is worth a mint? Hmmm.....

Having bought new cars for the past 40 years I have noticed a general trend of dealers being easier to work with. Not sure if it is because I am older and wiser or that dealers tend to take advantage of younger inexperienced buyers. Over the years I have had all the tricks pulled on me: withholding or "losing" keys to my trade in, using 3 or more salesmen to beat me down, using the 4 square technique to come up with a price only to realize the price difference between trade in and new car price was padded with hidden profit (my fault for not doing the math), and trying to sell me a car that wasn't even in inventory. It's been my experience that if you come into the dealership well armed with invoice price, other dealers' offers, knowledge of the product, and a willingness to walk if the deal is not your satisfaction seems to work best. Also having a calm, almost emotionless, demeanor can readily disarm an aggressive sales tactic. I will say my recent purchase of the FRS was effortless (I'm a 1st 86'er).

Thanks for serving. For what it is worth I am ex-military (Army 101st Airborne Division) and have worked at a car dealer (but not as a salesman, but was around the dealer enough to know what goes on). And I apologize if I came off as being abrasive. You are 100% correct, it is a two-way street. I never treat cars salesmen/women like dirt. I treat them with the same respect, and I expect that same respect in return. That said, I have bought my last 5 vehicles almost exclusively from the Internet. I found it took away a lot of stress for both the salesman and me. Negotiate over email or phone, come in for a test drive, and sign the paperwork and leave.

And you are right. Not all car salesmen/women are jerks. I have had very good ones and very bad ones. My advice to those in this thread is if you get a bad dealer, buy from another.

That said, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on the salesman needing to know the basics of the car. I am not talking about understanding the intricate details, but at a minimum, they should know the basics (amenities, horsepower, fuel consumption, etc).

My local Mazda dealer did something pretty cool. All the sales personnel had iPads. They could look up any car at the dealer and give you details and specs at their fingertips. Very helpful.

This.



And also, this day in age, google reviews will separate the good and the bad pretty easily.

We have people come to our lot over others and drive a good distance just because of our reputation.

Word of mouth as well. I think I sent about 10 people to my Honda dealer in about a 2 year span based on the way they treated me.

And I also try to take my vehicles in for service and maintenance at the dealers who treat me well.