FI turbo issues
 

Recently installed my JDL single scroll kit, PTE BB 5558, 540cc injectors, DW65c pump, flex fuel kit, 3 in turbo back exhaust, 3bar MAP sensor.
Car seems to have the idle dip pretty badly and or almost stall out at times. BOV on the car is a Tial Q and is staying open at idle. We tried swapping out to a 10psi,11psi and 12psi spring. The 12 keeps the bov shut but seems to cause comp surge on the turbo. We did replace the charge pipe with another pipe and place the bov further down by the IC. Seemed to work okay with the 6psi BOV spring for a day but back to the same issues of idle dip and or stalling. I have thought about switching springs again but feel with the longer vac lines and it now further away may cause surge on the stiffer springs.

I am also going to be in need of a new tuner. Any recomendations would help.

Since you're in AZ why not try @nelsmar?

It's probably not the bov. If it's idle dipping and nearly stalling it's either a vacuum hose or very bad injector calibration.

This. Who did your current tune? Don't worry so much about compressor surge would be my other advice. I keep telling people that Tial specs their BOV springs for the amount of vacuum the car pulls. Put in the appropriate one and don't worry about it. For this car that spring should be an 11 psi or a 12 psi as we can pull as much as -22 to -23 in/hg.

Might be the tune isn't setup for the 3 bar map sensor. It's the easiest to swap out so maybe try that.
I had a bad idle dip problem because of that very thing.

I forgot that there is an easy way to tell if it is your BOV or not. Simply remove and plug the vacuum line to it so that it stays closed no matter what and then go for a drive and stay out of boost and see if the same condition exists.

It's definitely either the injector calibration (usually latency) or a vacuum line under the manifold. If it was a vacuum line under the manifold you'd know it, though. It would be hunting at idle really bad and stalling damn near every time you come to a stop.

It's really easy to tell. Just log the car and see if the fuel trims are crazy. Also, if your tuner turned off LTFT in closed loop then you can pretty much be certain that is the problem. Easy to tell again, just log the car and see if (after 10 minutes of driving or so) the LTFT is always 0 regardless of how bit the short trims are.

Re installed an 11psi spring in the bov. Car drives like normal again although I hear what seems to be slight surge. Now I just need a new tuner to see what this kit will do

So who tuned it :D

Also, my Tial BOV is open at idle and I have no issues with it. As long as the BOV is before MAF, you should be ok with it open.

Not true my friend. If it is placed close to the MAF and opens then it messes with the flow across the sensor which when at idle really confuses the ECU.

Define too close.

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It just shouldn't be open at idle in any case, really.

I've read it both ways. Some say it doesn't matter others that it does...

I fear too stiff spring and compressor surge...

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This seems to be true in my case as I am sure it had played a roll in others. As soon as the 11psi spring went in the car doesn't have any of the idle symptoms

Would you rather have a properly running car or a fear of something that is nearer a myth? I had zero fear of compressor surge with my 11 psi spring and dual washers. I can send you some nice perfectly sized aluminum washers from McMaster Carr if you would rather go that method.

FI turbo issues
 

If the BOV is before the MAF you want a lighter spring so you get fastest reaction. The new location also requires a softer spring as its about 5 feet (vacuum line from the IM to the BOV) from the vacuum source. Anything more than 3 ft from the vacuum source and you want a step softer. With the new location there should be no issue with the MAF being open or closed.

There are no leaks. I pressure tested it up to 15psi. When the pipes were swapped I went over every couplers before the bumper went back on to ensure proper sealing at the beads.

Tuners input would be great :thumbsup:

The BOV went from here

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/...52037494_n.jpg

to here

https://scontent-b-dfw.xx.fbcdn.net/...98248620_n.jpg


Some info from Tial

http://oi61.tinypic.com/t71jx0.jpg

I would think with the BOV being that far from the MAF sensor that yes you could run a spring that opens up at idle with no issues, but it doesn't appear to be the case according to @evo4g63 . I can't see the info from TiAL you posted since it is a tinypic. Can you link me to it on the Tial website? Here is their info on picking the right spring:

http://www.tialsport.com/documents/w3_tial_qqr_sp.pdf

FI turbo issues
 

On the original test car we tried 6, 8, and 10psi springs. The best reacting without any flutter was the 6. Same on this car is question. I'll find another link. Tial doesn't go into detail on the site for some reason

As I have mentioned offline the tune is the likely suspect based on what symptoms you have relayed to me. Mechanical issue is the least likely and as others have said the surging is not something to be worried about especially during little throttle blips or light load. Without datalogs or really any real information it's pure speculation. James I believe said the same thing I did when you first contacted me. It sounds like an injector scaling issue or perbaps something else in the tune that is a little off. I'm not usually so quick to suspect the tune but in this particular case it's something that needs evaluation. I will leave it up to the OP to disclose who is/was tuning it but really I feel you need to find someone else :thumbsup:

It is obvious that the 6 psi spring is going to react quicker than any of the others. That isn't in question. I mean it is ready to open up at idle with no issues so when you slam that throttle closed it will definitely open quicker. The question is whether or not its opening at higher vacuum levels is causing enough turbulance to upset the air flow across the MAF. It is an easy thing to verify by removing it from the equation and just removing the vacuum source from the BOV so it stays closed no matter what. If it makes no difference then it is clearly a tune issue.

FI turbo issues
 

The new location of the bov should have no effect on skewing maf readings. I think we need more tuner input honestly

I still haven't heard him mention whose tune he is currently running, but I agree that I still think it is a tune issue and not a BOV issue.

it seems he doesn't want to disclose. must be tony@fa20club ;) [just kidding]

I have been avoiding getting involved until now but... Since the OP is beating around the bush:


To the OP: You know you could just do what everyone has told you and moved on with the tuner filling your head with false info.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...54.23%20AM.png

If you note here you will see his car picking up negative fuel trims while in mixed injection mode. But once it goes port only (this is a very short period of time) you can see the fuel trims retracting. And during this time the AFR is just shifting lean and the engine is shutting off. This is a direct cause of issue from port injector latency mis-calibration. What is going on is the ecu is opening the injectors for what it expects is x# of ms, but due to latency of opening time it is not actually opening the duration it requested. The issue was in the 6g/s learning window. Which is why it was not affecting all other areas as that window would shift between DI and DI + Port from time to time. The reason you didn't have this issue with the first flash from your tuner is because he was maxing out the fuel trim on the rich scale. You were running well below 11AFR and so when the ecu attempted to pull fueling it was maxing out the short term trims (since your tuner doesn't use long term trims) and the ecu was not allowed to pull any more fueling out. This would run a longer than desired injector port time which was actually closer to correct due to the fact the latencies are set to a smaller value than they should be. If you still want to beat around the bush go install your stock injectors and see what happens. Hell a stock rom would probably even work considering the maf size for a simple throttle blip as it would have long term trims, and much better port latency times.

Sure the MAF can be skewed with the blow off valve but there are a number of resolutions to that such as hacking the MAF table, speed density, adjusting overrun MAF, custom tables based off misc inputs. I tried to help you out in person at JDL and told you that it takes a bit to dial in injectors but yo insisted on using your current tuner. Here you are going in a full circle to find out you are having the same issue from the start: a tuner issue.

I can tell you with 95+% certainty that this is a tune issue. The symptoms you describe are something that I fix for customers on a weekly basis. Idle dipping, near stalling when you come to a stop. It's almost always in the tune, and it's due to extremely high fueling error and LTFT being turned off in closed loop. The only other thing that I've ever seen cause this is when the vacuum lines pop under the manifold, but usually then it's way more exaggerated, and the car will stall all the time (not to mention you can hear it clear as day).

You just need a new tune. This has nothing at all to do with a BOV or your MAF. I'd bet my paycheck on it.

EDIT: @nelsmar pretty much got it, and it's really pretty simple: latency is wrong so you have massive fueling error on the low end port side. without LTFT there to expand the compensation range (ltft and stft stack, so giving up ltft halves the operable correction range) and stabilize things the car simply can't correct itself in time to keep from stalling when it falls back to port-only injection.

This is why port and direct injection balancing is so important to drivability, and why it's so important that fueling error be as low as possible in every case. Even if you had LTFT turned on, that doesn't necessarily solve the problem. Trims have no knowledge of injection ratio. The common case is this (when LTFT is left on in closed loop):

- Car starts and idles on ports only.. builds up a massive trim (often because latency is wrong)
- You drive away... car warms up while you're driving
- You pull up to a stop, car is now warm and attempting to idle on DI only
- Car stalls or idle dips because the error on the port side (for which the low bucket LTFT was calculated when you were idling there warming up before) is wildly different than the error on the DI side.

In other words, the car has two independent 'fueling error amounts' that it needs to compensate for with trims, but only one mechanism (set of trims) with which to do it. It never says 'oh I'm on DI now... i need to trim differently than a while ago when I was in the same maf bucket but was on port only'. This is why it is absolutely crucial that you have extremely low trims independently on both the port and di side of the equation. they have to both be minimal or else you'll have wild afr swings when the injection ratio changes that cause issues like you describe.

Also as for tuners... You already have a long list of people to go to.

Just to name a few:

HRI
Delicious
Moto East
JR
Evasive

And others.

And to the others viewing this thread I am not the tuner involved that the OP is talking about. I just tried to offer a hand when I was at JDL one evening.

Sent from my IBrick

This. I had the same exact issues with my tune when I sold the car, and I am not affraid to say that it was an FA20Club tune. I knew that the BOV was not causing the issue because I had already eliminated it as a possible cause. I informed Toni of the issue multiple times since my first drive home from being "tuned" meaning 10 flashes on the dyno and zero time tuning on the street.

I had the same problem on my own car if it was below 70F out. If i blipped the throttle it would shut off. And it was on the same injectors as the OP, and his logs show a lot of similar properties of my own car back then. I would max out fuel trims and the car would just shut off. It also did it while on the highway at about 65MPH at certain load values. (as in while driving).

Yep. I actually taught myself to make sure I engine braked to as low an RPM as I could to not allow the RPM very much room to drop when I stuck the clutch in. Sometimes it would still stall out when I stuck the clutch in and hopefully I was going fast enough to just put it in second and pop the clutch to refire the car so I didn't have to embarass myself restarting my car while sitting at a stop light. Stop and go traffic with higher temps was when it was the worst for me.

This is all textbook stuff guys. I literally fix this for someone at least once a week. I can tell people what their problems are before they even tell me at this point when they call lol.

Just get a new tune.

The car will be getting a new tune as soon as I can find someone willing to tune it. Until than it'll just sit parked . I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.

This is my take on all of this:

I have had my car with open at idle BOV (my kit is routed like JDL's) and didn't pay much attention to it. It had an 8psi spring.

I've had a hard time tuning the idle for the past month. Looked for fuel leaks, vacuum hoses popping off, etc. Nothing was wrong. Yesterday I decided to try closing BOV and it is a different car.

Car is way more responsive, it's building boost sooner and more importantly, the idle improve significantly. Now Just need to fine tune for it and it will be within 2% of fueling error. I used the Tial chart and selected the 11 psi spring which is the correct one for my car that vacuums -20.

On the tune side, I used to have an FA20club tune that had these issues:
Idle dip... bad (never fixed)
14 AFR part throttle all the way to 16 psi (WOT would force open loop and proper AFR) (never fixed)
Too rich AFR when going to open loop, creating a misfire CEL when going WOT sometimes (fixed after multiple times asking for it and fixed only because instead of asking about the CEL and being told it was a bad coilpack, I actually diagnosed the issue myself and simply asked for an open loop AFR leaner than high 9's
Car would not start normally, needed to start cranking then WOT to remove fuel and make it start. (Fixed after spending money on FA20club recommended injectors sworn to have those ones nailed down perfectly, still having the issue for a couple more tune revisions SMDH... but then fixed for good).

And the weirdest of them all, sometimes completely random the car would make no power even at 16 psi. It was like ALL timing was removed from the tune. A little time later or stopping starting the car later would fix it. Other times it would not make power up to 10 psi and then would make normal power from 10-16 psi.... Never ever got this resolved and know other people with FA20club tune that have hd this happen too.

Heck, less than a week ago I reviewed logs from one FA20club turbo car dyno tuned with FA20C turbo and one dyno tuned by FA20C but with P&L turbo and both of them knocked while cruising to -5......


All of this issues are non existent with @jamesm tune.

I've read lots of things in the past on various cars about idle issues and whatnot with BOVs open at idle, even when then BOV is before the MAF. Most people put stiffer springs in them like Sportsguy83 or shim them to keep them closed at idle and it fixes the problem. It usually has little affect on the BOV at boost either, you probably won't see much more compressor surge.