Buying Without Getting Reamed
 

I keep running across random comments about how screwed up Toyota is with their "no haggle" pricing scheme that keeps non-current vehicles on the lot. Also keep hearing mention of ripoffs like getting charged for (non-existent?) paint protection that the buyer never asked for. And occasionally I'll see advice that you shouldn't pay for dealer prep charges or other such costs because they're either already paid for in the cost of the car or they're just a nice-sounding term for "we're screwing you because this doesn't actually buy you anything".

So... what is and isn't legitimate when buying a car? How do dealerships stick it to you? What's acceptable practice and what's blatant abuse? Oh, and since the internet can occasionally allow for opinion to be misrepresented as fact, state your rationale for any claims / advice (i.e."I was a car salesman before I got a conscience" or "I worked at a Toyota dealership and have first-hand knowledge", etc.

Thanks!
<moderators, please feel free to move this to an appropriate forum if this isn't it>

Depends on your attitude. Some guys won't touch a car unless they're under the advertised MSRP and cutting into 'dealer invoice' and 'dealer holdback'.

Do some research on Edmunds and such and figure out what you're willing to pay for exactly what you want. Some guys have to have a clear bra and wheel locks and trunk mats and aftermarket upgraded stereo while others despise add ons.

For the most part the dealers I encountered in California were pretty up front with their add ons to jack up the price, the trick was finding someone willing to forgo the add-ons. Sure you can negotiate on them but 50% off something I don't want is more than I'm willing to pay.

Ask questions, don't be afraid to say no and walk away. The only concessions I made were an $80 'documentation fee' and I think they may have rounded up on the taxes they collected off me, my car was $27.8k out the door.

Aside from turning down the add-ons you see on scions site (rear bumper aplique lmao) I turned down an extended warranty, some 'anti-theft' protection sticker b.s. that they installed against my wishes, and the 'boost plus' service plan.

Sorry, I go off on this stuff because it was such a hassle to find a car without b.s. add ons, I think the msrp on this car is fair, not great but fair. Good luck.

Answering my own question, the things I ran into when buying my FR-S.

I went in knowing about Scion's fixed price policy, but also knowing about the dealers' propensity for adding on doodads that are expensive for what you actually get. Stuff like $70 for a piece of clear plastic stuck on the rear bumper to keep from scuffing it when you load stuff, or $67 for wheel locks that you can get at your local car parts store for $30. So I was very firm about wanting just a base model, no add-ons.

The sales guy left to "talk to the manager" and came back with a plain piece of paper that he'd hand-written a price ($25,550) and "agree to purchase" with a line for my signature. Now my wife had done the whole "TrueCar" deal on line and found the "best" deal was at a dealership some 80 miles away, with a price of $25,670, so this seemed reasonable. I wondered if this was just some psychological tool to get me to feel committed to the process, or whether this could actually be construed as an agreement to purchase, but the price seemed right, so I signed.

Then he went to actually locate a Hot Lava FR-S. That's when the trouble started. Turns out there was exactly ONE left in the state, and it was in Los Angeles, some 350 miles away. He had also asked me how much I was comfortable spending. I was in a position to pay cash if needed, but figured if I could get cheap credit I'd go with that. I told him I'd put $10,000 down. He said that would make my payments around $450 a month, but he needed to get the actual figure from the finance manager. He asked if I could swing $450 a month, and I told him I could. So he comes back with "Good news, the figure is actually $429 a month". So I do some quick math on a piece of scrap paper and realize that over 6 years, $429 a month adds up to a WHOLE lot more than the approximately $16K balance that's left after a $10K down. This is when I start to lose any trust in this guy.

I tell him the figure seems kind of high. He then explains that the payment includes a 10 year extended warranty and a bunch of other crap (oil changes, tire rotations, who knows, maybe there was a weekly ham sandwich hidden in there). I tell him "I just want the car, and only the car, and not anything else".

So he comes back with a new figure of $379 a month. This still seems high, and a quick bit of calculation proves it. I tell him that I'm unhappy with how he is treating me, that he seems to be dishonest. I tell him I agreed to buy a base model car for $25,550, and now he's coming back with all sorts of figures that add up to WAY more than that. I tell him if he can't keep to his part of the agreement, I'm going to walk. And up to this point, he keeps presenting me a plain piece of paper with monthly payment figure and a signature line hand scrawled onto it. This strikes me as more bullshit. So I tell him I want to see the actual figures, every penny of taxes and fees, or this is over.

He comes back with a computer-generated printout. It has everything listed, including taxes (in excess of $2k) and finance fees. Along with the expected price of the car there's $1450 in "miscellaneous fees". When I ask him about that he tells me that includes $450 for the fog lights I want (necessary where I live) and $1000 to transport the car up from Los Angeles. The monthly payment still comes to $379. I notice that the interest rate is listed at 3.99%, this after he told me that Toyota was offering 2.69% interest.

I tell him the transportation fee is too high, as is the interest rate. I tell him that I'm tired of getting jerked around, particularly in regard to the interest fee. I tell him that the whole deal feels dishonest, and I can drive 30 miles to another Toyota dealership and see what they'll do to get me the same car.

He leaves and comes back with the dealership manager, who points out that to get the car he's going to have to have it shipped by a 3rd party transportation company, and the best he can do is $600. He knocks the interest rate down to 2.5%, bringing the payments to something more reasonable. At that point I figure the shipping premium is worth getting the one color I really want, and we close the deal.

I head over to see the finance manager. He's not happy. Does the hard sell with the extended warranty. The guy should have been a dancer or a circus performer, because he deftly treads the line between suggesting that the car is unreliable (even stooping to point out that "it has Subaru parts in it") and wanting to make me feel smart for "protecting my investment". I point out to him that everything covered by the 8 year warranty is already covered for the first 3 years by the factory warranty, so the $360 a year cost adds up to $1080 in the first three years for stuff that Toyota would pay for anyway. I tell him I'd rather just put the same amount each month into a savings account and have it in case I needed it, but also have it in case I didn't end up needing it. This doesn't help his unhappiness, and he reluctantly slides the purchase agreement across the table to me.

So... go in knowing what you want, be firm in holding them to that, don't let them screw you with hidden costs like high finance fees or extra warranties, and be willing to go somewhere else if you're not getting a fair deal. Oh, and know how to do some simple math. That's what really saved my bacon.

Your experience is exactly why I never go to a dealership, until its time to pick up the car...and sometimes I make them deliver the car.

With the internet and email, there is no need to play their BS games.

thanks for the advice, for when im going to get one :D

Yeah thanks man...how did 450 a month for 6 years make sense to that guy that's nearly 30k. They were really trying to rip you off man. That's nearly 40k in the end with your down payment. I have the same plan as you ...to go in with a 10k down payment.

ya i hate dealership haggling and price scrams I was lucky with my scion though they had all all base whiteout frs in the lot that I wanted non of that extra accessories bs and I paid 330 a month with a 3.9% financing and 5k down payment. The only thing I added as an addon extra is the resist all paint protection thingy cuz I hate bird droppings on my car everyday of the week.

I got my car for 26k the only thing that killed me was the sales tax >_<

Thank you and noted

so basically

Deposit (If you're reserving like I am)

Docking Fee (can sometimes be voided)

Tax

Tags (dealer will sometimes pay for this)

down payment


everything else is BS.

Damn that seems pretty ridiculous. I'm glad my dealership experience was pretty straight forward.

I preferred to do all the initial conversations by email. I had two local Toyota dealerships near my home. Two significantly different experiences though. I opted for the email quotes and specifically asked for quotes and eta on a 6 speed white out monogram with absolutely no added options.

One dealership kept trying to get my phone number and told me they didn't have a monogram or 2014's in stock, but that they had other "similar models"....I wonder what other RWD car Toyota makes that sells for less than 30k...to add to that, they called me a completely different name, funny bc my name is in my email and signature. Terrible initial experience so decided not to give them my business.

The other dealership was perfect. They allowed me to actually test drive an FRS, and when I mean actually test, my salesman took me to a nice little private area where I could really open her up and take fast turns. I drove a test car to 6k rpm... One of the many factors that so easily persuaded me to pull the trigger on my white monogram was that this dealership responded within 2 hours, told me a 6sp white out monogram was coming next week, bone stock. The timing was too perfect. They did not have the residuals so they couldn't give me confirmed numbers for the payments but he gave me a pretty damn good estimate based on current deals. He kept in touch with me as soon as the numbers were in so I finally decided to go in and discuss in person. Never hid anything or try to add bs. Went straight to his desk, pulled out all the numbers on his screen, and he printed out every option I wanted so I could compare the effects of down payment vs 3-6 year finance options, vs lease options.

This was my first dealership experience and I went in with my guard up but it went by so much smoother than I expected. Although I did yelp/google my specific sales man after he introduced himself over the phone and I did find a few good reviews about him...

The what is your budget per month or "up to" trick along with the foursquare worksheet are designed to distract you from what you are actually paying.

Negotiate an out the door price...don't get caught up in the monthly crap, as op points out...

OP, what dealership gave you this runaround? I have likely visited that (or one near it) dealer in my search for an FR-S just to find prices and meet different people. Don't want to end up in a bad one.

I'm in the 209, so you're safe from this one.

This is why I negotiate everything over the internet and phone. All the way to the OTD price. Good job not getting fleeced, some of these dealers are downright shady.

Dealerships are funny. They will try to sell you the "add-on's" harder than they will try to sell you on the car itself. Why? Because most of the add-on's are nearly 100% profit. Some dealerships are way worse than others, but you get the same crap at no matter where you go.

Also, MAKE ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that the number you and the salesperson arrive at matches the number that the finance guy gives you. That is where they tried to **** me over, but failed.

Ill share my rant although it was with a suburu dealership.

I initially made it very very clear I wanted a 5 year payment plan and no additional warranty. Very very clear. First to the sales guy, then the finance guy. I get into the finance guy and he tells me he wants to go over the info anyway at the end just in case. Fine I say I want my car lets go.

So he has his list of things he tells me i cant live without and I say no to all of them.. He says he can swap something for something else and get me a mirror for free. Awesome thanks. Oh and a gas cap thats really cool thanks man.

Finally he says if I move some other things around it looks like I can get you that extended warranty and keep your payments the same.

Heres where I messed up. I wanted this guy to just be a normal human. I thought he was in the army and he seemed decent im going to take my guard down and try and assume this is one decent human talking to another enjoying the awesome experience of buying a car. Wrong wrong wrong. He was the enemy and he was being as slippery and slimey as an evil screw could be.

It ended up being a really fishy way of saying Im going to extend your terms to 6 years instead of 5. Add 3000 to the price and your payments will stay the same.

In the flow of the conversation this was directly after actually getting me a few free things. So it seemed on the surface like he wasnt trying to completely screw me into something I already made very clear I did not want to pay for.

It was also directly after me saying I want 5 year terms and can pay this much per month.

Bar none. At the begging I said 5 years x a month is what I want and what they agreed too. In my mind he lied, even though he was just being extremely weaselly and technically did not lie. In the brotherhood of man he lied and abused the trust I wanted to give him. Not cool.

Thats fine. I learned my lesson. I will never treat anyone in a dealership as human again. They are all officially lying scum to me. Where I work and the company I keep that type of fuckery is so far beyond ok I didnt even see it coming. The guy seemed to have some kind of self respect. was in the army. I didnt want to have to treat him like an evil dude, but no longer.

ok well thats a rant, and finance people in any industry are mostly scum trying to scrape off the top of someone elses work.

Exactly. Do all your calculations before you get to the dealership. The only thing that matters is the price settled on. If you tell them your target monthly payment is $375-$400 you might walk out of the dealership with just that... and an 84 month car loan lol. You'd be better off not telling them how much you want to pay every month.

^That. The entire time discussing with my salesman, I never let him know how much I was comfortable paying monthly. I did ask him to give me quotes on a 5 year payment plan with $3k, $5k, and $10k down, and lease quotes for 36 months with $1k, $2k, and $3k down. After that, I basically got to choose my favorite option.

Can't tell how much of my experience was luck bc the EXACT model I wanted(whiteout, 6mt, monogram, bone stock) was being delivered to them a week after I inquried.

This is one of their biggest scams. Nearly every dealer i've ever dealt with pushed the "We can get you down to a monthly payment of $xxx." line. I can't imagine how many people fall for this. You've got to disregard the monthly payment and look at the big picture, the final price when all is said and done.

While I still believe the best policy for buying a car is never go to the dealership until its time to pick up the car, here are some more tips:

1) negotiate the purchase price of the vehicle
2) negotiate the offer for your trade-in, if you have one
3) work out the financing, if you're using dealer financing

These are 3 separate transactions, and you need to handle each one independently.

Awwwww.... crap.

Remember the 2.5% finance the sales guy quoted me on the computer print out? The price we agreed on, and shook hands on? I went back and looked at the actual sales contract.

They changed it to 2.79%. :mad0260:

Now this adds about $150 to the price of the car, financed over 5 years, so we're looking at an extra $2.50 per payment, but still... you can't trust the bastards to act in any way that's honest or honorable.

Oh, did I mention the car is being shipped up from Los Angeles, about 350 miles away? When I asked how long before it would arrive, the sales guy said "Oh, it'll be a couple of days". That was on Friday, April 18th. Yesterday was Wednesday, April 23rd. Still no car. So I called and asked, and the sales guy said "It's coming up this weekend". Okay... so two days (I was figuring on it going onto the truck Monday morning and getting here Tuesday or Wednesday) turns into, what, 8 days? No. Just got a call from my friendly Scion Salesman, telling me it'll arrive on Wednesday, April 30th. When I said "gee, John, it's turning into a long two days" he said "Well, this is the first time I've had to ship a car, so live and learn".

In other words, they're more than willing to cut themselves all kinds of slack to excuse their lies and failures, but they won't hesitate to lie to you in order to screw you out of more money. I had hoped that the stereotype of the cheesy-ass car salesman was in the past. It's apparently alive and well, and can be found at your local Scion dealership.

I know it's too late for you but this was the point when you gave them power. I never spoke about the monthly price and when the finance guy brought it up every time I said "I don't care about the monthly payments" and looked at the final price.

Always always always look at the final price of the vehicle and the interest rate, those are the only two numbers that matter, everything else derives from those two numbers and if you lose sight of them you allow yourself to get taken for a ride.

I put ~$10k down, no options on mine and my payments were under $325/month, the second you wrote $450/month I knew they were screwing with you.

Sorry you had to deal with a shitty dealer, for me it's been the lowest point of owning this car, hopefully you feel similarly.

Edit: Also the 2.79% interest 'mistake' is called yo yo financing, they'll call you in to re sign the contract, look over it extremely thoroughly if you decide to do it, they might offer to give you a 'rebate' of some kind. My dealer promised it to me cash (the difference in the mistake, they wrote it for 2.19% said that it should be 2.25% and they 'reimbursed me' for the difference) but instead sent it to the financial company to be applied to my loan shady shady shady.

http://www.myfoxdc.com/story/2391737...#axzz2zqJDh0YK

Haha.. Fun games at the dealership.. First they tell you how great the car is, and how you are buying one of the best cars out there. Then when you're convinced and ready to buy they use scare tactics on you so you can spend another couple grand on the warranty.
Not to mention all the BS kind of games they play with interest rates and securing loans and fees, etc...
Good stuff.. They even make you sign for the things you don't want.. The whole process sucks.. They should be sued for false advertising, how can they say "fixed" pricing and get away with it. Lol..
I hope I don't get tired of this car anytime soon... so I don't have to go through all this crap again.
Good luck!

Yep, always negotiate everything over email/phone and be prepared to walk if they charge a cent more when you go to pick up the car.


Also if the car was 350 miles away personally I would just go get it myself.

:thumbup:

Couldnt agree more! You can ALWAYS go buy somewhere else. I would have went there myself one dealership buying from another and selling to that guy of course they're going to screw you.... smh i hate them all

they dont call it the "stealership" for no reason.

The key generally is to be a bigger a**hole than the sales and financing guys are. If you want the car, call them every day asking what they can do for you on the price. Show up and test drive and waste their time as much as you can get away with. Bring in lower quotes (no matter how far away they're from). You want to get to the point where they just want you to go away, and to do that they're going to have to give you a good deal.


Oh hey, lookey there, first post! Going to be picking up a Monogram once my current fun car sells, and I'm already getting under the dealer's skin...

Oh, trust me, the sales guy was getting tired of my constantly checking his figures. As has been stated by so many others, you have to stay focused on what the total cost is going to be, and not the payments. The annoying part is having to keep checking that they haven't screwed with the interest rate, or thrown in some sort of maintenance scheme or paint protection that you didn't ask for.

And you're selling a '72 240Z to get your FR-S? Have a look here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64174

Yup. I love the power of the car, but I'm tired of not getting on the road because of warm up times, no power anything, no AC/heating, etc. Time for a fun car that I *know* is going to work every time.


Also, maybe it's time we stopped talking about boost and start talking about wild N/A builds :D

Jeeze. Glad I bought my car where I work.

Update: Wednesday, April 30th, 12 days since I bought the car with the promise that "it'll take two days to get here", and the third "it'll definitely be here" day. I call the dealership, no car. I tell the sales guy I want to know where the car is, and I want an answer today, or the deal is off.

I call another Toyota dealership maybe 15 miles from home. I tell the salesman the short version of what I've been going through, and promise him I will buy a Hot Lava FR-S if he can get it for me without ****ing me around with maintenance contracts and accessories and extended warranties that I don't want. He tells me he's got one on a lot in a city an hour away, and he can have it for me in about 4 hours. This is interesting, considering the original sales guy had sworn there was only one left in the entire state, that it was 350 miles away, and I'd have to have it shipped to the tune of $600.

The original sales guy calls me back an hour later, explaining that the dealership in Oxnard (who was supposed to ship the car to my local dealership) had instead sold the car. I'm holding a sales contract with the VIN number of the car I've supposedly bought, and ask him what he's going to do about it. He says he can offer me $1200 off of any FR-S they've got in stock, or I can come by and pick up the check I'd written for the down payment. I tel him I'll take option #2.

I head to the second dealership. Sales Guy #2 makes a couple of attempts to sell me crap I don't want. The car had Lo-Jack "pre-installed" for $700, I tell him I don't want it, he says it will be a huge headache to remove and offers to sell it to me at his cost ($180). I tell him that it's his problem, I didn't ask for it, and he crosses it off the list of accessories. When I talk with the finance guy, he says he's required by his boss to offer me a whole list of extended warranty options, paint protection plans, etc. He claims he's not commissioned and doesn't care whether or not I buy any of the stuff, but they have him on a timer and if he gets through things too quickly they figure he's not trying hard enough. So we go through the motions of him showing me stuff and me turning him down, but there's never any real pressure for me to buy any of it. A far more pleasant experience than the first dealership.

In the course of all this, I tell salesman #2 about the first car being sold out from under me. He shakes his head and says "that's probably not what really happened." He explains that each dealership is allotted so many cars, but they don't keep much inventory on hand. If someone sees there are only two or three examples of the car they want, they're more likely to buy because of the perception of scarcity. So a dealership might have 40 FR-Ss, but only two or three on the lot. The rest are kept at the port of entry, and are shipped to the dealership as needed. Dealerships can sell or trade their inventory to other dealerships at their discretion.

So the Hot Lava FR-S I originally bought was not at a dealership in Oxnard, it was part of the Oxnard dealership's inventory but located in San Francisco, about 50 miles away. What apparently happened was the first dealership made a deal with the Oxnard dealership to transfer the Hot Lava FR-S to them, but the Oxnard dealership backed out figuring the could make more money selling it themselves. Hence the repeated delays and broken promises as the first dealership bargained with an unwilling partner. And they were trying to make me pay $600 (originally $1000) to ship a car 50 miles.

We close the deal in less than an hour. And I end up paying $2000 LESS for the exact same car. They don't screw me with bogus shipping fees, they don't stick me for $200 to install the "dealer installed" fog lights, and they get me a 2.59% finance rate. I got a text message last night with a photo of the car. I pick it up this afternoon, 24 hours after signing for it.

Summary: If you haven't taken delivery, there is no contract. Up to that point, you can walk out at any time. Don't be afraid to go elsewhere, or even to play one dealership against another. Some are more honest than others, but they'll ALL try to upsell you on stuff you may or may not want, as that's where they really make their profit. Stick to your guns; they need you more than you need them.

You people should look for the trailer to the movie Suckers on YouTube . Very apropos.