Roll cage/bar Question
 

I use my car as a DD and occasionally carry people in the back seat. I want a roll bar or cage that still allows access to the rear seat and seat belts, the agency power roll bar seems promising as well as the cusco 4 point bar and 6 point cage. I'm wondering if anyone has experience with either of these or has other suggestions. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

The harness bar that has to go across the cabin behind the seats makes the back seats extremely unsafe for passengers. While some kits allow for removal of the harness bar when not on a track, it is up to the owner to actually follow through with that (which many don't).

That being said, how the hell do you fit people in the back seat? Are these... tiny people?

Unless you want those people to die, please do not use a roll cage for daily use AND carry people.

In fact, don't use a roll cage for a daily driver at all.

If you have to ask... just imagine which will win: steel tube, versus your head.

-alex

I'm not planning on using a harness (that i know of) so maybe there is a bar that sits higher in the rear seat?

It's usually me and my friend in the front and the girlfriends in the back, not a very comfortable setup, but I would like to be able to move more than one person .

I ask about the bar because I would like to go to the local track occasionally, and be a little more safe

you have a completly backwards understanding of what a rollbar/cage is supposed to do and how it improves safety

i will edit this post in a moment to explain why, after i finish my sandwich

I have been going to the track without a harness/roll cage, and it's perfectly safe.

If you are driving to the point where you are at serious risk of a rollover and are asking this question, you're not driving your car right.

A roll cage is part of a safety SYSTEM. Again, even if you were parked and some drunk driver broadsided you with your girlfriend in the back seat, what will happen to her head?

You don't need to be moving to get hit. And you most definitely don't need a cage at the track to be safe.

-alex

Thanks, I will admit there are things I don't know, and that's why I ask. I'm looking for rollover protection, while maintaining the use of my rear seats.

Also, sandwich always comes first haha

Car safety is a system.

The system of your oem is that of crumple zones, a 3-point seatbelt, seats that move/fold down, airbags and collapsible steering wheels. This is actually pretty darn safe. Even on the track, the chances of you dying in your car are super low. Especially if you just do lapping and point by passing in a controlled environment.

And if the car rolls, and IF the roof collapses on to you, the 3-point harness and your seat are designed in such a way as to allow your body greater movement to avoid getting crushed.

A roll bar is a reinforcement that is bolted/welded into the frame of the car. All organizations have minimum requirements for the design being two bars running diagonally from the main hoop to the back, and a cross bar from the driver’s head to the opposite floor… like this is an absolute minimum. The laws of physics and triangulation demand it. But a cross bar in the middle as well as triangulation between the rear bars is also standard.

The main purpose of the rollbar is to increase the roof’s resistance to collapse during a rollover, but it also adds a lot of stiffness to the chassis and reduces the crumple effects of the oem design. These forces have to go somewhere.. and that somewhere is you. Going back to safety being a “system” if you get a roll bar you’d need a fixed bucket seat as well as a harness. Because if your OEM seat folds in an accident, it’s going to hit the metal bars in the rear, and if you go sliding around into the back of the car during an accident you’re gonna get a beating.

If you have people in the back seat, they will get mangled and most likely die, assuming they even get in there to begin with.


If you want a proper roll bar and functioning rear seats, this is an impossibility.

If you are going to install a roll bar, you’re going to need to get all the other bits as well, because otherwise you are creating more danger for yourself.

I travel on a very dangerous road were cars routinely get flattened and people die. I have been looking at the Cusco 4 point and my worries have been the function of the rear air bag and if I can get enough padding on the rear bars to keep it safe for my kids

Well, it seems that I'm rather dumb when it comes to safety haha. I'll have to do some more research, sounds like a roll bar isn't what I need for how I'm using my car.

its pretty simple, if you're going to have people in the back seat(ie, important ones like children), DONT RUN A HARNESS BAR/CAGE.

and @dirtymax, are you parking/and or driving around in monster truck arena's with your kids? Where is it that people routinely die all the time?(I'm joking lol-I know CA roads are pretty bad). A cage/4 point will only make the back seat more un-safe(even with padding), and more difficult to get in and out of.

don't forget, you make a car really strong, paramedics ain't gonna get you out with a claw in time

everything is a compromise, a rollbar is a bad solution for your problem

also, from what i udnerstand, the FRS is pretty damn rigid in terms of roofline.

Pleeeeease do not get the Cusco "roll cage." It is not a safety improvement in my opinion.

Rollcage padding is not there so that you can hit your head on it and be fine.

Rollcage means you must wear a helmet and wear a harness.

Rollcage is for a TRACK car only.

Back half roll bar is streetable when used correctly.

Either way, there should be no one, especially not children, in the backseat.

If you routinely travel on a dangerous road with your kids, just drive slower and more carefully!

IMO there are three proper ways to approach this kind of thing.

1. Completely stock. Helmet on the track.

2. Properly implemented roll bar with harness bar, harnesses + helmet for the track. Just remove your back seat.

3. Full welded in cage installed by professionals. Never driven on the street. Helmet + harness. No "style" roll cages made for showcars with thin tubing and stupid bends bolted in with weak ass junk hardware.


EDIT: and as Dave said, proper fixed back seats with option 2 and 3 are a must.

- Andy

If your head hits that bar, you could make a pretty minor accident VERY dangerous or deadly. Bars without the full safety setup (especially a helmet and harness) are incredibly unsafe for the street. Please do not get a bar if this is what you're going to be using it for.

A roll bar is an all or nothing choice. Either your completely stock or you all the way and get a proper welded in part with zero back seat.

Anything that just bolts in is no good.

Why do you want a roll bar or cage?

Never, and I mean NEVER, put someone in the back seat with metal bars near them.

If you do and something happens I hope you get sued and lose everything you've worked for in life. Sorry, but it's just an incredibly idiotic idea.

mountain roads in the far north with big lifted up trucks and drunk people, lost a lot of friends on that road.

Thanks guys. was thinking it would make it unsafe myself but always looking of a safer option in this little car.

You forgot about proper seats.

There are only two configurations that I will ever consider on track.

1. Stock (or equiv) seats with no roll bar/cage and stock 3 point belts.
2. Roll bar/cage, fixed-back seats, 5/6+ point harnesses.

If you want head and neck protection there are systems that do so without requiring harnesses so that's not a valid excuse either.

Dont you think as a moderator that a little on the harsh side? After all this is a place to ask questions and the cusco 4 point doesnt exactly have you wrapped in metal bars

Bolted is better than nothing. Although I add even bigger plates in on top and bottom (of the sheet metal of the car - I'm sure you knew what I meant but just in case others weren't clear) to help distribute load when using a bolted bar.

that's what makes him an amazing moderator

harsh is the only way to deal with yokels, cuz if you sugar coat it they'll think it's all a ruse and continue asking physics-defying questions hoping that their original premise will somehow gain validity.

When it comes to safety I don't think being harsh is a bad thing. It's not like I attacked his wheel choice or something.

Also coming from a track guys perspective who has spent over 15 years on the track this is a topic I feel strongly about. Why p%#$yfoot around a serious topic?

Where the fuck do you travel ?

Sent from my SGH-I337M using Tapatalk

Derp, yes I forgot about seats! Proper fixed back seats with a rollbar or cage.

Agreed 100%. I don't mess with harness bars either.

- Andy

dirtmax's trip to work and back..


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUdOTADBFyE"]NES Contra level 7 - YouTube[/ame]

Humboldt County California. Lots of super dangerous roads with people that have quite a different life style.

Those who have been in this a long time know someone or has witnessed injuries or worse from improper safety prep. For example, a friend in high school had to have major plastic surgery after getting in an accident on the street with his roll cage equipped car.

- Andy

Little kids might stand a better chance in the back assuming they are in car seats that are secured however I would never suggest it.

You have to look at the forces involved in accidents and the amount of body movement that occurs even when properly using a 3 point belt. A padded bar will still kill someone. Not to be an asshole, but think of the odds of an accident and then consider the forces and finally how you'd feel if something happened to your kid because of your actions. I'm trying to make you think about it in depth.

I used to be one of those idiots with a cage in a street car (although it was mostly a track car but still) and it's something I would never do again. Clearly I didn't die, but I will be very up front and honest by describing my own actions as idiotic. Even then I didn't have back seats in the car but a cage with front seat driver/passenger is just as idiotic. I was young and stupid. (To be clear that was a 6 point with dash and door bars, not a 4 point roll bar which can be done safely on the street but still requires ALL of the safety gear.)

I have no idea what to tell you if you live in that dangerous of an area. Hell I'd move for your kids sake but assuming that's not possible I don't really have any suggestions about making your car safer. You are in a VERY safe vehicle as is and adding bars near passengers is NOT going to make it safer without the full system and it's going to be impossible to have more than a 2 seater with the full system of safety gear required to do it right.

I just had a friend die last week on that road and its nothing new so I'm sorry if you guys think I'm blowing this out of proportion. I can post the link if you like

Here's one that a few people on this forum knew:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...ighlight=death

I know a bunch of people that were there, both on this forum and outside of it. This was on the track but the accident wasn't really THAT bad.. nor was it a rollover.

No need to do that....sorry for your loss. :(

Sorry if we're harsh and I understand if some of this is new to you. Nothing wrong with asking questions...I'm glad you asked honestly because many DON'T and then bad things happen.

This is just one of those "seriously please don't do that" kind of thing that strikes a chord for many of us based on experience and the fact that some of us (not myself but Myles in the office) are instructors and ride in other's cars all the time.

- Andy

I'm sorry to hear about your friend :( I didn't think that you were blowing it out of proportion but my opinion doesn't change.

I hope whatever changes need to happen to get control of that roadway/area will happen. It seems as though the drunk driver aspect could be controlled and I'd guess Cali is just as angry with lifted trucks as they are with lowered cars so there seems like there could be more enforcement there too.

Shitty though.

I certainly didnt want to hijack this thread and turn it into drama but my questions have been answered. Its a no go on the roll bar

I don't know. Think about how easy that drill bit went through the floor pan. The strength in a welded in bar is being about to tie it into the strong rocker panel structures.

I have built numerous 4-6-8 point setups and I will never go back or build a bolt in piece again.

Supporting argument:
http://jalopnik.com/5390929/mustang-crash-gallery/

-alex

This gets into a design conversation rather than a bolt in vs weld in conversation. If a 3x3 plate is used (and there are TONS of welded roll cages with just plates) then it's absolutely no better than a bolt in solution. Using a larger base plate (4x8/6x8/etc) is certainly not as good as boxing the mount to use multiple surfaces, including the rocker, but is still better than a 3x3 or 4x4 welded plate. I supplemented my bolt in bar's plates for this reason. Is it as good as the race cars boxed mounts? Of course not, but it's better than the default autopower mounts. At the end of the day, if it's mounted to a plate (bolted or welded), the size and load distribution of that plate has to be sufficient, otherwise you get the wreck posted above in a high energy roll over. The failure in that mustang and other times when this has happened was the sheetmetal, not the bolts/etc.

That mustang is of course a lot heavier and faster than our cars and appears to have very small plates.

True it does comes down to the design. I have seen more poorly designed cages then good ones. If I remember I will measure the plates on the my car. I would guess the 3 plates are each about 5x5. Since its not a full cage i was able to get away with no box's.

I'd REALLY like to know where people are getting this information?

Well, it is harder to get crushed when your entire body has been stuffed into the passenger-side footwell because of the forces of the crash and the way the car rolled. Crushed from the top of the car collapsing, anyway.