E85 specific oil
 

There are many overblown oil threads on the internet already and on this forum. But no one with the fa20 seems to really be discussing e85s affects on oil. Or at least i cant find it.
E85 consumes detergents and drastically reduces the oil change interval so its important to look at the tbn and a bunch of other stuff im not well versed in.

the following is internet hearsay;

Ive heard motul 300v doesnt deal with the acid well but 8100 xlite does.

Trd by motul is suposedly amazing in general but only has a tbn of around 7(pretty low add pack, but there are other factors that make oil good/bad for e85 im still a noob about)

Amsoil dominator and redline seem to work well but im pretty sure they are low on moly.

Mobile1s detergents are consumed quickly so mobile recomends mobile turbo diesel instead.

I have a gm fleet vehicle that has to have its oil changed every 2500 miles when its on e85 as per contract!

Local gtr guys tell me they use a similar oil change interval and have posted alot of uoa's.

Im going to try rotella turbo diesel oil on e85 and do a blackstone uoa after 2000miles and ill post it to this thread.

Anyone else have a uoa on e85?

Keep us posted.
Going e85 once I get my headers.

That's my two cents. Frequent oil changes are your friend.
:cheers:
-Dennis

Brad Penn green oil that's all I will be using. It's designed for e85 and it's fairly cheap

The Frozen North

yep, just have to change your oil frequently. Also letting it warm up all the way helps a lot. Cold starts and shut offs are your worst enemy.

@bluesubie thanks for that. I was worried no one with any knowledge was going to comment on this thread and I am very behind on oil knowledge. My comment on Motul 300v was because ive read some people dislike ester based oils with E85 but no one could tell me why. Seemed like internet BS. I was leaning towards rotella or TDT but i didnt realize it doesnt come in a weight that works with our clearances. Though interestingly the FA20DIT uses 5w-30 and subaru recomends using a higher weight oil in our fa20's when used under harsh conditions. So I think im leaning towards motul 8100 5w-30 (x-lite or x-cess? i need to understand tbn and calcium more to make a descision) but it's still costly. Can you think of anything else that might be more wallet friendly to change more often?

@Dipstik-sportech
Brad penn specifically says DO NOT use e85 with their oils it will cause gumming

http://penngrade1.com/CMSFiles/File/..._BRAD_PENN.pdf

Hmmmm. Maybe I should tell my buddies that run it

The Frozen North

Rotella does come in a semi-synthetic 10W-30, although that could still be too thick on stock internals.

Between those two Motul oils, X-Lite 0W-30 is a very thick 30 grade oil, with a high HTHS so it would act more like a 40 grade oil. It does have lots of calcium, but I wouldn't run it because it's thick. X-cess is only 5W-40. X-clean is a 5W-30 with lower phosphorus levels to be cat friendly, but it's also a thick oil. Eco-nergy is a thin 30 grade, but has slightly higher ZDDP levels since it meets the older API SL spec.

The more robust oils will be the ester based race oils (Dominator, 300V, and Red Line) and I would actually just reach out to the manufacturers to see what they say about E85.

Here's a Mobil1 0W-20 virgin oil analysis that shows the lower calcium levels and boosted levels of magnesium (like Rotella or M1 TDT):
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2243763

And here's a TDT voa (although it's from 2010):
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1939477

I'm really surprised that M1 recommends TDT in applications that call for 5W-20. I believe that some of their 20 and 30 grades were reformulated to include more magnesium when the oil switched to API SN and I do not know if that "Ask Mobil" question was before or after the reformulation.

I would probably go with 300V or Red Line 0W-20 unless you can find more evidence of problems running ester based oils with E85 (Red Line is very good at responding to emails). Or for a daily driver, I would probably just go with whatever 0W-20 or 5W-20 that is easily available (like Pennzoil Platinum or Ultra Platinum or Mobil1).

-Dennis

Amsoil dominator comes in a 0w20 and isnt horribly expensive if bought at wholesale.

Actually, 5W-20. ;) Although, the only difference is that the cold cranking test on a 0W is performed at -35C and a 5W is performed at 30C.

http://www.amsoil.com/shop/by-produc...code=RD20QT-EA

It's a fairly thick 5W-20 at 8.9 cst's at 100C (30 grades start at 9.3) and it has an HTHS of 3.0 which is the same as many 30 grades. And regarding base stocks, most oils these days are a blend of 2-3 base stocks so I wouldn't get too hung up on that. There's a Tech Dept. phone number at the very bottom of Amsoil's web site if you want to give them a ring.

It also has more ZDDP than 300V or Red Line.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1247342

-Dennis

so whats the best oil lol

I'm running 300v 5w-30

There is no one best oil, IMO. Although I would switch to 300V 0W-20. The 5W-30 has a high HTHS and will behave like a 40 grade oil.
http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1339171623

I know there's a thread with a bunch of uoa's here, but I don't recall if there's one on E85.

-Dennis

I heard 5w-30 is better for boosted cars


I love boost!!!!!!

Well ill be boosted on e85 exclusively on the 19th and right now I'm leaning towards 5w 20 amsoil dominator after learning up a bit. I like its high zddp and since Subaru recomends a 5w30 for the fa20dit this heavier 20 makes me feel more comfortable than 40 rotella or tdt. I will post regular uoa, most likely blackstone. But has anyone used amsoils uoa?

It depends on the oil. Not the brand, but the additive pack, HTHS, and viscosity. Check the uoa thread. There are boosted and tracked cars running Red Line 0W-20 with very good uoa's. Most off the shelf 5W-30's (non Euro oils or non racing oils) sometimes shear to a thinner viscosity than some xW-20's.

I stopped using Blackstone because I kept finding so many mistakes in their uoa's and just because of the goofy comments. A turbo Outback owner posted an RT6 uoa at subaruoutback.org and the ZDDP levels came back lower than Resource Conserving 5W-30, which is impossible. I told him to contact BS and they said it was a equipment calibration problem. They re-tested his oil and it came back with 10-20% higher additive levels across the board. :bonk: I've also spotted similar uoa errors at nasioc.

Oil Analyzer's Inc. (Amsoil's) is cheaper than BS (even with a non Amsoil discount) and it includes TBN, oxidation, and nitration. The only thing is that oxidation levels on ester based oils may read high and the lab may flag it as a problem when it's not. It's best to do your own virgin (unused) oil analysis, but the voa in the link above gives you a good view. Although oil formulations can sometimes change without notice.

Their uoa test methods are similar, but if you want to step above a uoa that is for more than entertainment purposes it'll cost a lot. :D
Many people go to Dyson if a Blackstone or UOA starts to show a major problem. Dyson helps you get to the root of a problem (BS just makes random comments) and helps you choose the best oil for your application. The amount of detail is just amazing (audio recording with your uoa).
http://dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_Analysis/Welcome.html

-Dennis

Is there any truth to the claim that Dexos rated oil offers more protection in engines running E85?

The only 0W-20 oil I've found so far that's dexos-rated is Mobil-1's.. although the bottle itself doesn't have the dexos stamp of approval yet.

I've been running Amsoil's Signature Series 0W-20 oil exclusively since I've gone to E85 ~25K miles ago.. so far so good, but I don't track or autocross, just DD'ing with spirited backroads driving. And because of this, I'm probably going to switch to Mobil-1's 0W-20 now that my Amsoil supply has run out. It's cheaper than Amsoil, dexos-rated, and like you mentioned I can just change the oil more frequently.

That was released in 2011. I thought they had an e85 now

The Frozen North

pennzoil 0w20 is dexos rated too.. so is castrol..

Thanks! Found a more comprehensive dexros list.. Pennzoil is on there, but Castrol 0W-20 isn't.

the edge will soon be on it.. says my castrol rep..

I'm not sure. I wouldn't believe anything that is pure marketing, like that web site. I couldn't find anything officially about it.

GF5 already has improvements over GF4 in regards to E85 rust protection and emulsion retention. Whether or not dexos adds anything to that I don't know. http://www.gf-5.com/the_story/performance/

dexos supposedly does offer better wear protection than GF5 alone according to this comparison tool. http://www.lubrizol.com/EngineOilAdd...l/default.html

Keep in mind that Amsoil Signature Series carries no formal dexos, API, or ILSAC certifications, although the XL and OE lines do carry API and ILSAC certs. Amsoil claims that XL 0W-20 exceeds dexos detergent specfications in regards to sulphated ash. If you want to see some GM/dexos bashing, just have a look at bobistheoilguy.com

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/3295981/1

-Dennis

That lubrizol site is very informative, thanks! Yea the more I read, the more basing I see against dexos.. I think I saw somewhere that says GM charges oil companies a substantial fee to get the dexos certification. Which might explain why some companies don't bother to get their oil dexos certified.

The GF-5 requirements are very reassuring. I think I'll just stick to the cheapest FULL synthetic 0W-20 GF-5 oil, and change my oil every 3-4K miles.

Looks like there's a new GF-6 standard coming out too.. just hope that doesn't skyrocket the cost of oil.

GF-6 has been pushed back a couple of times because there is some concern about 0W-16's providing adequate engine protection. Basically they have to design engines that will work with this oil. :bonk:

http://www.imakenews.com/lng/e_artic....cfm?x=b11,0,w

In a few years, the new BRZ owner's will be saying that 0W-20 is too thick and you have to run 0W-16. :D

-Dennis

Probably don't have it in US but

http://www.nulon.com.au/products/Ful.../#.UylKQM64PbI

Yep is 5w30 but it get hot here 100F + and if it gets much below 50F everyone would think the next ice age is coming.

Ambient temperatures shouldnt be the only way to judge what viscosity oil you run. Many people have raised concerns over tighter clearances in the engine leading to requirement of thinner oils. Also thicker oils tend to run hotter than a thinner one, its reduced flow leads to poorer cooling effect on critical engine components which is one of the oils main purposes. the Fa20 runs at around 95-100C, would a difference in ambient temperature from a "cold" 20C to a hot 40C really have a significant effect on oil temperatures(and hence viscosity)? you have to remember this car has no active oil cooling solution so oil temperatures arent directly proportional to ambient temps.

sorry for going slightly off topic :)

Boosted, E85.

What oils would you recommend and what change interval? I know you are not going to give me one, but give me a list to choose from... PLEASE :D :cheers:

I've been running Motul X-lite 8100 0W-30 since boosted....

I find it interesting that Subaru does recommend 5w-30 for the FA20DIT engine. Would seem that for a boosted application that is the way to go (same internals both).

Ive been using Motul 300v 5w-30 and i have no issues at all

Today will be my 2nd Oil Change using this.

I do it every 5k miles


I love boost!!!!!!

I've had no issues with Motul 8100 0w-30, problem is we will not know there are any problems until we get a (knock knock; who's this) sound...

I thought I was good, but didn't realize my oil behaves like a 40 weight oil which IMHO is too much for this engine. That is why I want alternatives. I would like to go with something more off the shelf than 300V. (Maybe that's the answer....)

@bluesubie

I've decided to use Mobil1 5W-30 for my new build. Reason, because in my area Mobil1 is more convenient to find and I would have to special order Motul. Plus, I've found a lot of places to price match Walmart's price. I get 5qts for about $24.99 (vs $37.99 at the auto parts stores) allowing for more frequent oil changes. :)

As for E-85's effects on Mobil1, I have not heard anything negative, but I personally do not have supporting facts, yet. I will have to see what the oil looks like when I do my next oil change.

After a long repair process, Full Blown is Dynoing my car today (19 Mar) and then I need to dump the oil since we just got past the engine break in phase. Maybe I can take some pictures of what the engine break-in oil looks like. I'll put in the same oil (Mobil1 5W-30) run it 3K-5K miles and hopefully get back. My first 400miles on this oil change with 91 octane & E-85 mixed (flex fuel kit :]) will be this weekend.

Overall, you can't go wrong with the higher end oil (hopefully with higher zinc).

(side note) I personally wanted to try Shell Rotella T6 oil (heavy duty engine oil) because of the high amounts of zinc and support for turbo'd engines. I've seen a few WRXs and Audis running this oil. However, I haven't seen it used with high octane fuel like E85 so that would be interesting.

Best of luck in your oil search :)

Edit:
By the way, I would be really interested in your results on this oil. I've heard really good results from Shell's T6 oil on boosted cars (but not much on E85 yet).

Send a sample to blackstone

I will be doing this with my 300v


I love boost!!!!!!

You guys are treading new territory with boosting a new car model on E85. My recommendation would be to keep it stock on regular premium. :D

I believe X-lite was reformulated in the last year or so, but it is a thick 30 grade with a high HTHS. I used it once in my FXT, but for the cost, I wouldn't run it in anything if I went less than 5k on the oil. At the time, it was ester based (I think it still is) and has a lot of calcium for detergency/dispersancy.

On stock internals, I would probably go with something thinner. Motul Eco-nergy is a thin-ish 30 grade at 10.0 cSt's at 100C.

Another thick 30 grade. With the base stocks, high ZDDP, and high moly, I would just go with 300V 0W-20. Although if you're changing oil frequently (less than 4k miles), I wouldn't bother with Motul.

I always comment that our oil is very cheap here compared to some countries (try AUD $80-$100 for Mobil1 in Australia), but I can't believe the amount you guys pay for short runs on some of the most expensive oil in the U.S. :confused0068:. Maybe try some MPT Thirty K or Miller's Nanodrive. :)
http://www.mptindustries.com/mpt_pro...automotive.htm
http://matrixsyntheticoils.com/store...gine_oils.html

UOA's posted on this forum show that ester based, highly additized 0W-20's (300V and Red Line) hold up well in forced induction and tracked applications. Add some E85 to the mix, and that cuts down the oil change interval drastically. I think you guys just need to do more uoa's.

Since some of you love to spend money on oil, get an oil sample pump and do a uoa every 1k miles without draining the oil. This will provide a lot more insight than 1 or 2 random uoa's here and there. And skip Blackstone and hire your own personal tribologist. http://dysonanalysis.com/Dyson_Analy..._Advanced.html

You'll get the most complete uoa results available as well as an audio commentary. You'll also get the best oil recommendations for your application. Only thing is that you have to agree to sign an NDA so you won't be able to share much details (although you can still post your uoa's here).

-Dennis

E85 specific oil
 

So if i stay with motul
What oil intervals u recommend?


I love boost!!!!!!

Mobil1's web site actually recommends M1 TDT 5W-40 for E85 applications, although I would never go this thick in a BRZ/FR-S on stock internals. I would be tempted to boost M1 0W-20 with Mobil1 Race 0W-30 or a little M1 0W-40 for the added detergency.

When M1 reformulated to API SN, many of their passenger car oil now have a similar detergent package as the diesel oils (lower calcium and higher magnesium). Check the VOA forum at bobistheoilguy.

-Dennis

Anything else besides Motul Eco-nergy 0w-30?

I am open to all suggestions. If its something off the shelf better.

Amsoil, Mobile 1, Penzoil, anything... :thanks::respekt:

Also where the other two suggestions semi-serious? Don't play with my heart :(

Im with David

I paid 90 bucks on Motul lol

Maybe a waste of money


I love boost!!!!!!

I would take a sample at 2,500 miles without changing the oil and be sure to get TBN. If you want even more information about how long you should run your intervals, also get a TAN which is the Total Acid Number.

Yes, semi-serious. They're good, robust oils (like 300V) but they're super expensive if you're running short intervals of 3k or less.

I would look into Red Line as well since it's usually $5.00 or so cheaper per quart. I would probably stick with 0W-20 with Red Line or 300V, but if I used an off the shelf oil, I would probably look into blending oils.

You need something thin on stock internals, but with enough detergents to handle the E85, and enough anti-wear additives to handle the forced induction. Too bad there aren't thinner diesel oils out there (yet). Amsoil has HDD 5W-30, but it's a very thick 30 with a high HTHS and does well in WRX's. It's pricey though, so you might as well stick with Red Line 0W-20 if you're spending that much.

I believe in Canada there are more 0W-30 HDEO options (although they're usually thick as well).

Pennzoil might be a good off the shelf oil. The new Pennzoil Ultra Platinum and Platinum are made from Gas to Liquid base stocks which have shown some very impressive specs (like low volatility). Pennzoil just had a Q&A about it at bitog. Too bad you guys didn't post your turbo/E85 questions there!
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/pennzoil-q-a/

If you have an oil pressure gauge, you can probably create blends of various grades to come up with an ideal mix (e.g. 5W-30 added to 5W-20, etc). And you might be surprised at some of the recommendations that you can get from oil companies. I've received great advice from Motul, Shell/Pennzoil, and Mobil1 that pertained specifically to my application (instead of the typical marketing mumbo jumbo of use what the manual says).

-Dennis

You are great Dennis, Legendary in my book. Thanks for all the knowledge. :respekt:

I do have an oil pressure gauge. I want to avoid mixing though.

I'm leaning here Will....

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Motul-007229-Eco-nergy-Synthetic-Lubricant/dp/B004LEYIHW/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=13952486 81&sr=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=motul+0w-30"]Motul 007229 8100 Eco-nergy 5W-30[/ame]

I just google. :D

-Dennis