Anyone running stock rims with good tires for open track?
 

Been talking to @CSG Mike about rims and tires. He has been amazingly helpful! I was set on aftermarket, but I have ZERO track experience and I'm wondering just how far people are going with stock wheels. I'm thinking a sticky (Hankook RS3 or possibly start with a PSS) wheel on stock wheels with new brake fluid to get started (already have the rest of the fluids changed out). Then upgrade as needed.

Any advice or thoughts? I was looking at TC105N's with PSS's, but I would be running a 225 tire (not much wider than stock) and they are going to cost me an extra $1600 that could be used for track time. Just thinking and weighing my options.

Edit: I do not plan on going FI. Just going to do bolt on's and tune

Run the stock tires... and then warranty them for a set of PSS?

Replying since you sent me a PM. If you have zero track expreience, go on Primacy's. You will learn more on Primacy's than any other tire since they squeal loudly at the limit of adhesion and are easy to recover.

They are not as slow as people make them out to be. Probably 5-7 seconds behind a new RS3 and 3-5 seconds behind a new PSS. Unless you have a lot of experience racing something else, they'll be all you can handle for your first couple of days. Then go with something like an AD08R or RE11. R-S3 probably not a great choice for you since yes they are faster but they heat cycle out quicker and they don't give as good feedback.

I'm not impressed with PSS. They're good DD tires but they heat cycle out by half tread like R-S3's. And, they're peaky in the wet (read- good traction until they break away and then tougher to recover than say, an AD08R or older PS2).

BFG Rivals are good and will make you feel like a hero since they offer grip and perform over a wide range of slip angles, but they won't teach you that much since their traction is available over a wide grip range. Mike and I don't really like these tires that much :)

Once you smoke your Primacy's, it's worth spending the money on the Advans IMO, they last longer than the R-S3's and have much better wet performance- actually a streetable tire. Very sharp response and good breakaway characteristics. RE-11A's would be a good choice as well.

HAHAHAHA!!! I like how you think :laughabove:

THANK YOU! Been searching through your threads! Sad you got rid of the car, but there is a TON of information in them! :cheers:

No prob. It was interesting, I drove a lady's track BRZ on half worn PSS and Ohlins suspension and could go no faster than I did in my own BRZ on Primacy's and stock suspension- same conditions. I attribute it to the tires being heat cycled out (it was like their 10th track day but they still had plenty of tread). No doubt they would have been much faster new. I have a set on my M3 and they are much stickier (but then again, they've never been tracked). PSS are amazing street tires but break down quickly with some heat cycles in them.

CSG_Mike and I have a friend in common who ran on 14th day RE-11A's and set his personal best at Buttonwillow, something like a 2:02 or 2:03, I forget. (MMisencik on S2Ki)

AWESOME! What Advan are we talking about? Just looked them up, seeing a couple options

Yokohama Advan Neova AD08R. It's what Evasive used before they switched to Maxxis r-compounds.

Not quite as fast as R-S3 but certainly within a second when new, and better longevity/response. $$ but IMO worth it, a nice step up from the older AD08 which I also liked but thought lacked dry grip- these AD08R's bring up the grip level a bit and retain the great breakaway characteristics that the older tire had but at a faster pace.

THANK YOU!!!! :cheers::cheers::cheers::cheers:

this is probably what is going to get me out there in the brz rather than my miata. while not a huge fan of the pss, i think that it would be a rad upgrade for a street car.

I'm pretty much in the same situation as the OP. I'm planning to get out on the stock primacy's but will eventually upgrade. I was looking at a 215/45/17 Federal 595rsr for the stock rims. Anybody have any experience with those? Their price is very attractive.

I have a set of 215/45 PSS on stock rims, been through 3 track days already and the edges where the sidewall meets the actual tread area looks like they have "folded in" for lack of better terms, like the tread area wore out way faster than the sidewall or something.

I have to say, they've got good grip when new but at my 3rd track day in Buttonwillow, I was losing grip after around 3-4 hot laps.

For street use, it is excellent, though. The 5-star reviews in TireRack are true.

from what i gather, its not as cost effective as it sounds since the tire doesnt last as long as some of the more expensive options of comparable grip. so the initial cost is cheaper but over the long run there are cheaper options to run.

Don't waste your money..

I run Toyo R888s on stock wheels.

The primacys once basically finished are fairly unpredictable

You will definitely wear out the shoulders on the Primacy tire, sidewall is way too soft even at higher inflation pressures.

The Primacy is actually pretty good...

I have done five HPDE's and one lapping day on the Primacys. Just like those before have said: they are GREAT learning tools and are quicker than you'd expect. I highly suggest burning those up first.

General Rule #1: Track time first, non-safety related upgrades second.

Most drivers upgrade their cars long before they're getting the most out of what they've already got. A combo of autocross and track time with good instructor(s) will likely get you there the soonest.

Anyone running stock rims with good tires for open track?
 

I keep reading this @dradernh! Great to hear this information come across consistently. Sounds like I need to get some brake fluid in the car and call it a day for now. I appreciate the advice! I am fortunate to have guys like @whataboutbob who is AWESOME and more than willing to jump into a car with you and give you pointers!

Advice: Fresh, high temp, high performance brake fluid; appropriate track brake pads (the OEM pads are likely to fade badly by lap 3, by all accounts); and install the camber bolts on the front, and dial in the maximum possible negative camber, as suggested.



Thoughts for my friend, Suave:


The standard street suspension setup will have the front tires rolling over onto their shoulders and just eating right through them when they're subjected to the kind of hard cornering encountered on a race track. As I think about it, I could see a novice chewing through those shoulders even sooner than an experienced driver who is actually a good deal quicker.

When you're just learning, you'll tend to charge into the corners too hard, and then compensate by dialing in excess steering lock which will exacerbate the problem of rolling those front tires onto their shoulders. This will accelerate that shoulder wear.

I'm not sure how much one can extend the life of the front tires with the camber bolts, but one could completely wear through the tire's shoulders over a two-day weekend without the additional negative camber afforded by the cheap camber bolts.

It would pay to do the camber bolts, I'd think.

Chewing through an $800 set of tires in a few days of lapping is expensive. The tires will last a good deal longer if only you can minimize that shoulder wear.

Talk to others about tire pressures. Don't look for maximum grip and speed, rather look for longevity. Make those shoulders last, screw your lap times. This way you'll get more seat time. My thought would be to crank up those tire pressures to as much as they can handle without becoming too squirrelly. 40-50 psi cold, maybe? (Then tweak the rear pressures to get the balance you want.) Do whatever it takes to make those tires last, because I'd think that's your limiting factor, how long your tires last before you're done for the weekend.

My thought would be to buy a set of tires that have racing-stiff sidewalls and heavily reinforced shoulders for hard cornering. You'll need smaller sizes to fit on your 7" OEM rims, if you stick with them initially. Don't buy these tires for speed, but rather for durability, longevity, and predictability, i.e. "good behavior." This is a different emphasis than what you'll likely do in the future should you choose to stick with the sport. Then, you'll start looking for speed.

If you pursue track days, you'll almost certainly end up buying a dedicated set of track wheels and tires. It might be better to just wait a bit, learn to drive, see how much you like it, and at that point, then consider what direction you want to follow. For now, my thought is to keep the cost down, and stay safe, of course.

A philosophical point, and very important, I think: You're just beginning, and I suggest that you would be wise to setup your car to be the least expensive, but best learning platform.

Do NOT go in search of speed. Not now.

You are there to learn to drive, and to develop your driving skills, to see how much natural talent you have.

You are NOT there to set lap records for your car's class/division.

This is an important distinction, I believe.

You don't need ultra-sticky, big, fat tires, for instance. Not as a neophyte. You need time and laps, and it will be expensive enough as it is without searching for more speed from your equipment. Learn to max out what you have.

More "seat time," and good instruction is what you need, not fancy, go-fast hardware.

This will keep the costs down, and it's safer this way, too.

But, I do understand the inevitable urges one may have to spend, spend, spend… :)

Anyway, there are some thoughts to consider.

Have fun, keep it upright, and stay off the walls. :thumbsup:

Haha!! Great post!! Thank you! Car is lowered with white line camber bolts maxed out! Other than brake fluid, sounds like I'm ready start! Like your advice about tires! Going to see what I can doing about keeping them alive :)

I ran the OEM Primacys then PSS on the stock rims.

Primacy's were terrible, the PSS weren't bad for the first few days, but they fell off quick. Outside shoulder was corded with -1.5* camber up front, with still almost perfect tread in the middle. I was surprised how much camber is needed to get these to wear evenly as a street tire.

They were pretty quiet when they had grip, but as grip fell off, they got NOISY, to the point where my friend had a GoPro inside his M3 with exhaust, was following me through a corner, and you could actually hear my tires screaming about 50 yards in front of him, lol.

Go to 4:04 in this video and listen to the PSS screaming for their life:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bvypz7eZvps&feature=share&list=UUmsIEcuCr-pOccJcgCwmPnQ&index=2"]Chin Motorsports Sebring E90 M3 - YouTube[/ame]

there is nothing wrong with the OEM wheel

an aftermarket wheel, (if actually wider than OEM), will simply make an otherwise wider tire perform closer to the manufacturers expectations.

otherwise the OEM wheel is just as good as any other wheel, and can be argued is actually better in terms of durability than some of the aftermarket ones.

Didn't know the warranty would cover the tires.

Is this possible?:drool:

Hey, Suave, something else just occurred to me:

If you should spin and find yourself stalled on the grass, especially longish, dry grass ... Get that sumbitch restarted and get off that grass! Right NOW!

Otherwise, you may find the very hot catalytic converter will set the grass alight beneath your beautiful car and the next thing you know, it's engulfed in flames and totaled!

If you happen to think of it at the time... ;)

I saw that video!!! LOL!!! oops!!

The stock Michelins have a 33k mile warranty I believe from Michelin, not Toyota. You get less than that, they are pro-rated toward new tires. You can get some money off.

How does one claim this warranty?

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What iphone mount are you using? Is it linked to a track day app connected to obd 2? Thanks!!


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I agree with everything Porsche has to say. Follow his advice. When you feel like you've gotten the most out of the car in that trim, start adding go-fast bits one at a time. You'll appreciate every one of them and learn a lot in the process. It'll make you a better driver in the long run, too.

as a new to driving on track driver....the single best thing you can do is LEARN...from instructors.... improving the driver is the best investment you can make worlds better than any mod you can buy.... Once your ability overcomes an aspect of the car (brakes probably) then you upgrade that....and so on....

Don't fall into the mod trap....look at it this way....lets have two identical rookie on track drivers....with a given budget of XXXX....one guy spends 90% on parts and 10% on learning how to drive....the other is the exact opposite....after all the money is spent who will be the faster driver....I know the answer.....been there done that....

If it helps at all, I just got back from my first HPDE. Not just first in this car, but first ever.

I was in the same boat as you and wanted to find the best suitable combo for my first time out on the track and ultimately decided to go completely stock for everything. Realizing that I am not in the position experience and performance wise myself to justify buying performance parts to "upgrade" the track readiness of my car. My inconsistencies in driving line, steering input, throttle etc would far outweigh the second a lap I may have gained by doing some wheels/tires beforehand with my experience level, and wouldn't make the experience any more/less fun and engaging.

All of that being said, I had SOOO much fun out on the track!!! The car handles excellent and has phenomenal feedback even on the stock tires. It lets you know when you're pushing too hard, when it starts to lose some traction (all traction/stability control still on of course), and when you get in a solid lap and proper lines, the car lets you know and you can be proud.

Spend the money you're saving right now on track time with instructors who know how to handle lighter cars and the lines they drive with them, buy an extra set of stock wheels/tires if you're scared of using the tires all up on the track if you're going often. Learn on these tires and then upgrade as your skills improve, at least thats what i'm doing! :thumbup:

All I can say is that I'm definitely addicted and can't wait to get back out there!! :burnrubber:

Hope this kind of helps. lol

That's gonna be my approach this season! Stock everything with maybe the exception of upgraded front pads.

225/45/17 Dunlop ZII's are cheaper (156 a tire on tirerack) than the advans and also a good dual duty tire. They're up there with the RS3 but are much better when cold and in the wet. Downside is they do tend to get greast when hot after multiple laps.

They'll be what I buy for my car for sure when I upgrade. I'm with others though, burn up those stock tires first and then upgrade. You'll appreciate the upgrade that much more when you do.

Hey Suavey. I run 225/45/17 RS-3s on dem fugly stockers.

I agree with Griever and others who believe running the stock tires first is the way to go. That's what I did (albeit without knowing any better) Just take it nice and easy on the first day at the track. Stay busy - get ride alongs, or have a skilled driver take your car out and ride shotgun so you can see what the tires are capable of in the hands of skillz. Then go from there. I had tons of fun on my first track day. Was lucky enough to have CSG Mike do a couple of laps in my car, laps he would call "normal" to my astonishment. Was mind-blown, then proceeded to set my fastest laps of the day.

Old thread but bump for great information, I had my first lapping day last weekend, stock car besides tune and exhaust,
Track was about 3.7km of connected runways, and a very fast track to learn on, I honestly wouldn't have had it any other way than learning the limits of stock tires on stock suspension, learned a lot about this car that day
This group let us go as much as we or our car could handle, and after the first 3 laps with traction on, the next 5 were in VCS sport mode, and the following 60+ all traction off. (Stopped counting laps lol)
Amazing experience, the tires were loud at their limit, which made learning how hard they can be pushed very easy,
By the end of the day, yes I know for a fact stickier tires and better brakes are required for more aggressive driving, but I know that having pushed this car as hard as I could and realizing where I wanted to make changes, it was a great experience,
Speeds reaching 170+km/h on the rear straight to 3 quick corners to another 750m straight with speeds of 160+ ... brakes held up pretty well I'd say actually, by the end of the day I was noticing more prominent fading braking out of those long straights, (relitivelty consistent 160-180kmh to about 80-90kmh slowdowns for corner entry)
Man did I have fun lol 150+ through the slalom was probably the most fun, it was just a blast
Stock tires held up incredibly well at those speeds I think, and I was doing 10+ laps at a time without coming off,
They got very slick by the end of the day, a combination of me pushing harder and them heating up a lot, but i was fully expecting to replace them after this anyways so I didn't care lol
After 4.5 hours on the track (actual time spent on there) the rear tires now have about 1mm left before hitting that wear marker between the treads, front are about 2mm better,

Going to upgrade with some Dunlop DZ102 and enter the final CSCS Time Attack event on the 21st of this month, not expecting to win, but it's a different track and I'm just going to have fun for the most part