From OPPO: Why you shouldn't modify your car for the track.
 

From here:

http://oppositelock.jalopnik.com/why...ack-1532455970



Quick read. Thought it was some good insight. I share this opinion and would add to with... Anything you do to the car for the track also (usually) makes it worse for the street IMHO.

I agree and stress this opinion often, with the exception of brake pads/fluid anyways.

At ITR Expo we don't let Nov/Int run r-comps, covers up too many mistakes. I've seen people who have never driven on track BUILD a full race car before ever driving on track.. not even once before. Stuff like that always surprises me.

I autocross more than track (obviously, but still do both) and it amazes me that this happens. I try to get people involved and they won't until they "finished" their car (which means upgrades to a 100% running car, not building).

Run what you have. LEARN it. People watch too many Japanese time attack videos (kinda like people who watch too much porn then think that's the real deal). I tracked for my first time on a 225k mile 240sx with lowering springs. And it was awesome. No big brake kit, no special tires, no monster power.

"But babe, this chick loved this in a porno I watched...." lol

I also agree with this point!! I usually get people telling me, i can't go to the track, i only have a 2012 Civic SI, i don't have enough power nor slicks.. First thing i tell them is, beautifull, you will learn more, and one thing is for sure, i will never let a newbie go on slick on the track!!

Learn to walk before running!

I also 2nd the brake pads and fluids recommendation as beeing the first mods!!

I did 3 HPDE days bone stock an loved it! This year I've got basic aero new pads fluids and slightly stickier wheels hopefully lol. I've already learned the limits of stock wheels. Haven't had the need to do suspension yet, I'm still lowering my times. Once in consistent then ill start toying with specifics to get even faster.

Agree completely. I started AutoX last season and did a full year on stock everything (aside form exhaust and camber bolts). With that little grip, there was no covering up driver error and I definitely learned a lot more than if I was running the 245 ZIIs I will be running this year.

im not entirely from the camp that mods are detrimental. i just think they should be appropriate. i think the primary issue is that people end up with a lot of power and mods that are flashy without mods that will allow for safe, reliable, consistent tracking. i only have two track days in the last 6 years and my current track car is pretty built and i feel like i can appreciate it for what it is. that being said, its still a ~130 hp miata on street tires

I don't think this is track specific. Modifying a car is a rabbit hole, modifying for the street might be slightly less because the performance is generally not sustained for extended periods.

If you don't have a rabbit hole full of money in your wallet, just take the blue pill.

This thing is, mods almost ALWAYS slow down learning and hide mistakes. 2/3/4 way dampers are awesome, but they raise the limit and hide mistakes that are easily corrected at lower speeds. R Comps do the same thing, power makes people ignore cornering because they are still fast in straights, etc. I see it all the time with people I ride with, making basic mistakes and not even knowing it because the car is at such a high level that the driver at 10/10ths is using 5/10ths of the car.

Having said that, people can do what they want. For those that want to really learn though.. there's nothing better than a slow ass stock car.

Works every time! They believe they need to meet societal expectations so... ;)

im not going to disagree. there is a reason why im running a 15x7 instead of a 15x9 or why its on 205 re11s instsead of 225 rs3s let alone an r comp or why its on koni yellows instead of ast singles. i think that my car as it is makes for a much more enjoyable experience and because of that, i am much more inclined to get out there (i prepurchased 8 more track days as a result). i wont deny that i could possibly learn more from a lesser car as i most certainly would. where it pays off is how now i will be at the track much more frequent. i will also be invested enough to justify a datalogger and now i will have an instructor for literally hours more than i would at the rate i would go to the track before.

the majority of mods done to my miata are kind of an insurance build with longevity and consistency in mind rather than flash.

I agree about the mods except for pads/fluid and TIRES. I've tracked a couple cars in stock form (STi, New Mustang) and from my experience you really need summmer tires for that kind of driving and they wear so much better than all seasons. My tires on my mustang were pretty much done from one track day at MSR here in Texas. Now I know the cars weight and my inexperience has a lot to do with that but still, I think that pads/fluid/tires is almost manditory for track days.

I can agree with this.

Especially considering that we make our car-buying choices based on a test drive on a stock factory car.

That we fell in love with this platform as bone stock should say something about how much modding we ought to do when keeping close to stock power levels... just about nadda (except for track condition prep). I promise you that Subaru and Toyota engineers knew a helluvalot more about setting this car up than joe-weekend-racer.


:lol: :laughabove:

Doing this will lead to one being able to answer the question of "What is the sound of one hand fapping"

You've just described everyone in my home town.

I'm pretty sure if I made a post about how water is wet, you'd find a way to argue that point.

With that being said, the sentiment by OPPO isn't an either/or scenario. It's just focusing on the fact that modifications aren't "needed" to get out to the track and have fun. It's clearly targeted at novices to the track.

The results so far in 86Cup reflects this:

http://i.imgur.com/x4PJwzB.png

But in the end there's just a general rule I follow:

Mod the car if you want to look fast. Mod the driver if you want to feel fast.

-alex

It looks like that Mr. Daniel Hudson has his sh** together!

... except he drives a Corolla.

-alex

So he did that time in a Corolla? Then I'd say everyone else on that list should be taking driving lessons from him. :D

i guess i have become a bit of a devils advocate here. i only mentioned it because the article is kind of misleading i think. its titles "why you shouldnt modify your car for the track" but then it says "obviously fluids, pads and tires are a must" i just think its kind of a slippery slope, thats all. if i ever decide to take the brz out, its likely only going to have pads, fluid and maybe an alignment.

i think if either one of us cared to search, you would see me time and time again responding to people asking for mod suggestions telling them to just drive it until they can figure out what needs to be different.

Every time I see a thread like this, I am reminded of how an average guy was "King for a day" at the track.

http://www.se-r.net/matt/index.html

The bottom line is, people need to go out to the track first before they worry about what the mods will do for their car, their build.

As long as they accept the fact that mods (by themselves) don't make the driver fast, and enjoy themselves, that's what counts.

-alex

When I've run my FRS around the track I didn't change the pads/fluid/tires. Even that's not required. I'm not even sure if I took out the spare tire.

Most sanctioning bodies simply require more than 50% pad material, adequate tread on the tires and the car be in "sound working order".

Want to know the difference between my car being street ready and track ready?


It's this...








http://i1130.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5d651855.jpg

heh.. it's great to see this shared on a forum like this. I wrote the article.

I instruct for a couple different groups and have a good amount of experience if any of you guys have any questions, feel free to ask!

But I always wear my helmet when I drive :bonk:

lol but seriously a helmet is all that you need, I just ordered myself an HJC AR10-II SA2010 rated, but I'll be taking my e36 to the track and maybe FR-S :thumbup:

-Taylor

What about the only mod being a bbk for the front only. I have problems with front brakes on the street ( I should say I have the 86 with the smaller front brakes, obviously not the north American version)

Overkill or not?

I am so glad I read this! I was stressing myself out for this coming summer and getting her ready for the track season. After resetting myself and reflecting I realized I have nothing to worry about except booking track time!

Sure, ideally (and what I was planning) I would be at a "minimum" with AP Sprints, JRZ's, oil cooler and 17x9s with 225 RS3/ZII. After coming to terms with reality and my finances I resolved that "she would not be ready for track this summer". And why the hell not?

Here is what you do:

1. Buy car.
2. Buy decent fluid (RBF600), minimum some aggressive performance pads (HP+ if you are newer to tracking, dedicated front pads if you are experienced) and...that's it.
3. Go out, have fun on the stock, approachable limits and drive the damn thing. Stock tires? Yep. All the better for that matter with learning the limits of the car.
4. If the funds are available slowly modify the weakest links.

About the brakes, I have seen some people say the stock system is fine. I guess it depends on experience but I would never, ever advise that. Again it depends on the track and your experience but having your foot go to the floor because the fluid is boiled and the car is not slowing down is a scary thing to experience. For reference, I went out on my local track that is hard on brakes and I know like the back of my hand: fluid boiled in 3 hot laps.

The long story:

Started with someone's turbo "track" miata and kept making excuses: "After I get the diff sorted and a BBK I can get out". After a year of figuring out small issues and refining the car for "track" but never getting any seat time, I sold that headache and bought a brand new 8th gen Si. Best decision ever. Although I find tinkering fun, the true joy from me is getting that seat time and driving the car on track, not wrenching under the car constantly "in preparation".

Started with autocross and progressively moved to trackdays, race school, TT and even a hill climb. The car had a bone stock driveline, stock suspension, rollbar, FIA bucket and a 6 point. I would swap dedicated front pads for higher speed events...and that's it! Sure a trick dialed in suspension would be fast...but would it be more fun? More rewarding? And unless I am competing or have the $ to burn, what is the point? Perhaps most important of all, am I faster because I have improved as a driver or because I bought a mod. I can tell you, for 99% of the guys out there, a decent entry level data acquisition system will go a lot further than that set of Ohlins. But I do love Ohlins, almost as much as JRZs. (I use a SoloDL btw, highly recommended).

PS. Supremely satisfying to get in your friend's car and first time driving it destroy his "best time". Be a better driver!

Since then I have driven a lot of cars in anger, everything from bone stock 100hp crapbuckets at autox to student cars at a trackday with 800hp and race cars. And you know what? Speed is relative and the thrill of thrust from big hp wears off. The thrill from driving 10/10ths at the limit of my abilities and at the edge of the friction circle? Never get tired of that. As well, a faster car can often be a less "fun" car. The breakaway characteristics become aggressive and you really, really have to pay attention to what you are doing.

In fact, I personally think that comparing laptimes for anything but personal improvement or competition is a joke. Especially at a trackday. Sure, I have passed/lapped exotics and "sports cars" in my stock civic. And you know what? It means nothing. We are talking about sharing the track with people of various goals and skill levels, in cars with various stages of prep. I can honestly say that I had more fun flogging my FRS in bone stock form than an e92 M3. Sure the M3 was faster, but it was not easier to maintain slip angle in, it was no more "thrilling" and I sure as hell did not feel like I was missing out. On street it might be a different story ;).

In the end, all I can say is that once you have been tracking for a while and start getting a bit more serious, you might notice that a lot of people hit a crossroad. Fact is, track cars are a compromise, particularly when it is also your DD and not a toy. If you see yourself continuing in this sport, it may be worthwhile considering a dedicated race car provided you have the space and towing capabilities. This usually happens when you get to the point that you have ruined your DD with mods to the point that you dread the uncomfortable drive or you notice you are having less fun because, as mentioned above, the car is fast as hell but takes a lot of concentration to balance her at the limit of adhesion. Something to think about. Aside from that...

Go out and drive the damn car!

PSS.

[ame]http://youtu.be/gC5-MoDUuRg[/ame]

If I were to give advice to someone just starting out on the track, I'd advise them to get brake pads and fluid. None of those things will hinder their development, and in fact, those "mods" will help keep them running longer so they can pick up more experience.

With those two mods, I think the FR-S is a great platform to run 20-30 min. track sessions.

1) It's well balanced, so you can experiment with techniques like lift-throttle oversteer, power oversteer, and trail-braking, but it's also forgiving which is hugely important on track.

2) The stock suspension has enough roll stiffness where you don't feel the need to upgrade right away.

3) It's lightweight, so it's easy on consumables and cheap to run.

It's almost an ideal entry-level RWD car for the track.

I disagree with the BBK.. everybody says bigger brakes are never a hindrance but I disagree to an extent. Threshold braking big brembos and a very aggressive brake pad is easily one of the more difficult things to do, and for a newbie you'll have all the confidence in the world but you won't have the slightest clue how to make use of all that braking power. Stock brakes, HP+ or similar pad, and ATE Amber or something similar.. and you'll have good brake power as well as the ability to learn threshold braking.

Also keep in mind a BBK with the use of factory tires will overload the ABS. It will take more time to stop if you're overworking the tires and causing ABS to kick on.