Those with 240 wbhp wish they had more, like closer to 300 wbhp?
 

I ask this question because 240 wbhp seems to be a standard "round about number" after a super charger has been installed. That and are most of you with these results feel that 240 is a good and fine number, like the car 'for my driving about needs' doesn't require anymore?

Like I have stated on other forum postings in the F/I sub forum I've been maddened by trying to get at least 300 wbhp by the time I'm finished. But let me take a step back here, do I really need 300 or will 240 be just fine for me? I dunno, perhaps I should do it in stages while taking care of my brakes, coilovers and others. For me handling is of paramount importance, it's a higher priority than the engine by itself. A car is a living machine where every "Bob and Bit" is as important as the next.

By the way this is a little off topic but does anyone know how much a typical Super Charger takes away from the motor, robs - steals to take from the engine to make the extra power. After all Super Chargers are are parasitic And they require a bit of power from the engine to make power. So at stock we are getting near about's 165wbhp to make 240 wbhp. Which i figure to be damn good. But not talking the whole machine that produces the power, there is a lot more going into making a 300 S/C car.
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My initial goal was 280-300whp but I'm happy with where I'm at. I plan to dyno next week. I get my cat-back in tomorrow. I should be north of 250whp. I'm fine with it because the car is so well balanced with that power. Sure, more power is always cool. I guess it just depends on your goals. I came from a 911 (996) and a M3 (e46) so I wanted something pretty close in speed. I'm almost there but the car is more fun IMO. I don't know how this car would feel with another 50hp or so. I don't know how well it will handle it in certain situations.

My fun is on backroads and a few track days. I'm very well set-up for it. Sure cars will be faster but I'm having a lot of fun.

I'm hoping to be around 300whp with flex fuel on my innovate sc, but honestly right now the car is so fun and i'm completely content with it if I had to stay at this level. I'm on the smaller pulley and intercooler though.

Its honestly user preference. I came from a 370whp/370tq STi. Car was very fast, but this thing is just enough to be fun everyday when i'm driving around, and not enough to make it a pain to drive around town. Don't get me wrong, more power would be great but I can't imagine pinning the throttle and just spinning wheel. That will happen to me from time to time, but wheres the fun in that? All that does is stroke the ego and put on a show for other people lol.

I've had friends tell me "you won't be happy, you will want more power". Maybe they are right. If that happens down the road, guess what, i'll take off the SC, sell it, and get something else. Thats what makes car modding fun anyways. My car will never be finished, even if I keep it forever, or end up selling it, lol.

I'm at 264whp with Jackson Racing SC. I still haven't pushed her hard cuz on snow tires, but car is crazy quick. Another 36hp would be cool, but I don't think it's needed.

Now watch me change my mind when I put on my summer wheels and tires lol

With the factory tires coming in at 215 width and the fenders only allowing a 265-275 width tire to be mounted I feel like 300+ whp and 250+ ft/lbs is the sweet spot for this car. If you want to run less tire, then I would recommend running less power. That is all assuming you enjoy grip and not tire smoke.

Rather than peak power, we'll be focusing on increasing the overall powerband :)

Should have gotten a turbo then. :popcorn:

Those with 240 wbhp wish they had more, like closer to 300 wbhp?
 

@CSG Mike that's what I'm interested in. Part of why I love this platform is the NA linear (relatively) power band. Boost is fun and everything, but the more torque I can get down low, the happier I'll be in my car. Because of that I may consider that crazy ESC.

*ducks and dodges the flames*

But honestly, for autocross (which is what I mostly enjoy) the closer I can stay to a linear power band the better.


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Torque is fun:
http://i.imgur.com/ii1O0vT.jpg

If a linear horsepower curve is what you want, then you will need a turbo setup that can get up to your target PSI at the lowest RPM possible and maintain that all the way to redline creating a flat torque curve.

More torque is more fun:

http://brz.ridedomain.com/dyno/sae.gif

Yep. Boost for me will have to be very calculated and likely relatively conservative with either a smaller turbine or an outside power source (ESC).


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I guarantee it. The grip increase will offset the power.

:bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll::bellyroll: :bellyroll:

it doesn't matter if you start with 240 or 300, you'll always get bored and want more in due time.

Can't sustain that power over a lap.

You're brave, spinning this valvetrain up to 8k. We won't be doing that until we have built heads... the valve springs on this engine are scary.

Remember, our supercharger can flow a LOT more than what it's flowing now. Same supercharger, same-ish supercharger RPM, same-ish boost, different (better flowing) engine. We just need to get the engine to flow as well, and the power will come. It'll be linear, sustainable, and very controllable with instantaneous response.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...ps24f09d17.jpg

ESC is not gonna give you a linear power band.

260 is Perfect! That's about 70% more than stock.
Quick, economical, and still using OEM clutch. Don't feel the need for any more.

Supercharger torque curve looks like a horsepower curve. Sure it may make decent peak power, but area under the curve is far more important in real life.

Really a 996, what did you have exactly? I have an 997.2 Turbo and I havent done anything to it. I don't need too. 500.bhp is more than enough especially Sport Chrono+ which the Porsche peeps know on.tne turbo gives you 16 horsies and 30 more torques. Besides updating the air intakes, billet diverter valve to be proactive. And it sounds a lot better; but You have to be listening to it.
I
I was thinking about to update My intercoolers and leave it at that.

I remember in my youth seeing an 993 twin turbo, Arena Red, was the color I wanted but the Paint to Sample is around $8000. Just A silly price But their Amaranth color an "Spittin´ - Image" to that color, so why spend $8k. When the current option is so close? That is about the difference in buying Ceramic Brakes, which you will observe about half the field switching over at track days to steal brakes. The thing is with Porsches is do not run "Traction Contfol" and PCCBs (that is short) for Porsche Carbon Ceramic Brakes - if you wander a Porsche Forum.

Oh that and Porsche has Mark Webber now including Patrick Long.

Well enough of me babbling.

"torque on demand"

That s2000 effectively has a M3 powerband from 5000 RPM to redline, but a tame powerband down low. Select your power by picking a gear :D

The car is absurdly easy to drive.

is this gonna turn into another SC vs. turbo thread or...

I had a 996 C4S with some GT3 goodies. I miss it but I'll get another Porsche down the road. Well if you have a Turbo, you know when a car is built to handle power. My advice to people is if you want fast, get a 911 turbo because it can handle it. I'd say 240hp is a "fun" level for this car and more will put you close to a base 911 or 987 cayman S. When I replace the BRZ down the road I plan to go with a 997T or the 14 Cayman S, still don't know yet, but I have some years. The benchmark for my car was the 987 Cayman S. I almost bought one right before I ordered a BRZ. I think I'm almost there in power but have eclipsed it with handling and braking.

With this platform, I just don't see the need to put a lot of power in it unless that's your thing. I feel like its more the game for people who drove turbo hondas. I'm not knocking it, but when you drive a well balanced car you start to understand the limits of a chassis. I don't drift my car, I like sticking it into turns and being able to accelerate out without a lot of drama. My car puts the power down great but I can tell with a bit more, it would be a lot more to manage. My car inspires confidence and I love that feeling, it's really a joy to drive.

different strokes for different folks, but it's a valid observation.

:lol:, that made me think of an old Japanese commercial I saw back in the day when in the military.

Different strokes for different yokes

*Video below might be boarderlining NSFW lol

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_i6kWbdTvjk"]TENGA EGG - YouTube[/ame]

^thats hysterical LOL

Sounds like a challenge. Wish I still had my car so I could accept it. Perhaps I will get to run some laps in James or David's car one day. I can't wait to hear why it couldn't sustain that power over the course of a single lap like most time attack guys do. The only thing linear in that dyno plot is the torque and boost plot, definitely not the horsepower curve.

I like your babbling. Running traction control on a Porsche can kill a set of rear brake pads in a weekend.

Same here. It took more than half the price of my Cayman R to eclipse it, but my BRZ did it.

I've heard this valve springs thing before - from someone that built their engine. @CSG Mike what's your reference point? You guys popped two blocks, but where are you coming from in saying the valve springs are scary, nomsayin'?

I find it hard to believe that the OEMs would make a valve spring that wouldn't work with an extra 600 RPM in this day and age. I have yet to hear of anyone breaking a valve spring or floating a valve on this motor.

Those with 240 wbhp wish they had more, like closer to 300 wbhp?
 

So wait, ESC torque curves look pretty damn flat after 2500rpm. My concern used to be the battery recharge. Educate me, what am I missing?

I'm as skeptical about supercharger torque curve as anyone, and I'm especially skeptical of the ESC, but I don't understand why the graphs and the commentary differs. I need to learn more!

(Also, I can dig the pick a gear argument. I like that idea too -- maybe I've just been thinking about my ideal boost the wrong way)
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but but then how do I brag from my bar stool?

Easy. Do 10 back to back pulls on the dyno, hood closed.

We may have purchased a single OEM spring to test the rate... we were going to increase our redline until we had it in our hands.

Remember, we come from Honda backgrounds... we like high redlines.

I don't know that that is the best way to replicate a single lap of a track no matter how good the dyno fans are. I am willing to bet a supercharger will lose power in that situation as well.

i'm not talking about the esc... talking about the centrifugals. the electric supercharger has crazy area under the curve... very good in that regard.

Challenge accepted :D

Remember, SC's don't have a turbo's hotside that's radiating heat everywhere, even with coatings and blankets.

True, but compressing air still generates heat regardless of how it is accomplished hence the oil feed system on that kit.

Mike we would have given you the information about the springs as we have posted about the poor spring which are in the FA20. We found they have an install pressure of 35 lbs and at .005 lift it was 55 lbs. The rocker designs in similar to the 2AZ motor. However we have some advantages over the 2AZ uses a hydraulic lifter and the rocker arm has a slightly smaller pocket for the valve lash cap and lifter. The FA20 uses a solid lifter and the rocker that has a touch deeper slotting. We meet with Papadakis Racing last week and compared the 2AZ stock part, their upgraded 2AZ kit and the FA20 parts. At this time the best solution to control the rocker is to upgrade the springs as we have already done.

Got it. I mentally merged your comment with Victor's. Victor saying that ESC wasn't going to be linear and then you talking about supercharger curves confused me. Shoulda quoted Victor in my question.

My primary concern still remains charge. The graphs are pretty dreamy.

Thanks man!


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