Part of the problem explained.
 

You seriously needed to make a new topic to pollute this forum more than you already do?? Fuck...

Two new threads , can't you count?

Can the mods please ban this guy for being a complete nuisance? If you have so much issue with what you perceive to be this car's suspension inadequacies, sell it and get something else that makes you happy. We're all tired of your incessant whining. STFU and get a life.

AW -
 

Come on kids - play nice !

(and I thought the great Canadian east west rift was between Ontariarrio and Kaybek - LOL) :D

http://i628.photobucket.com/albums/u...ps3eb3bee8.gif

CERBERUS

Here's something to hold you over until the thread gets legs.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y"]Argument Clinic - YouTube[/ame]

spam,spam,spam,spam,spam,spam,eggs and spam............:lol:

All of you that want to bitch about Suberman - STFU and dont read his posts if you dont want to

You are far more annoying complaining about him than he ever is.
Anyone that cannot handle a debate should just stay out of it.

I for one appreciate discussing the handling characteristics of any car and how to properly drive them. And Suberman is correct far more then most of you think.

Plus his IQ is higher than yours....just ask him and he'll tell you. :lol:

Yeah intelligent people tend to be more belligerent than average don't they?

No they don't !

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CERBERUS

Yes they do !

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CERBERUS

No we don't.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Amen :bow:

What suspension inadequacies ? Even stock, the car handles like a dream ! ( With sticky tires, like a wet dream ). :wub:

Closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price - :bow: Toyobaru !

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CERBERUS

So how are the thread tags created? It's hilarious lol...

At the far right of the tag bar, there is an "Edit Tags" button.:D I believe each person has the ability to add two tags, and edit/remove their own tags.

I'm no engineer nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Well all he did was copy and pasted the link that some one had posted in another thread, not much IQ used there.

Nonetheless, I see his point - Suberman has his opinion - it differs (obviously) from a lot of people here.
I don't see how that makes it necessary to pile on the guy.

^^ Do a search for other posts by Suberman, then you'll get it.

This kind of says it all really, though it misses opportunity for scatalogical innuendo. The adolescent rite of passage innuendo is revealing, my how I miss those days! The username is unintentionally (I hope anyway) truly hilarious. After all, everyone on the internet could be somebody's dog. I hope my user name provides adequate warning of my own self image. Caveat emptor!

My point, eminently justified and supported by just about everyone who knows how to drive, is that this car slides too easily. This means it is not the closest thing to Porsche handling at an affordable price. In fact, a lowly Ford Fiesta ST with a 1.6 turbo will make mincemeat of any of the three versions of this car.

The car was designed this way deliberately. The marketing guys at Toyota knew exactly what they wanted and that's what they built. They were right as the car is immensely popular, but not among serious and capable drivers. Very, very interesting is to realize that the three versions of this car on sale around the world have three different spring rates F/R which of course means one of those is the best. That happens to be the BRZ. Why? Because it begins to slide at a higher speed than the other two, on any surface. Why? Because it has the softest rear axle. And before you whine that this ain't necessarily so, yes it is. One of those three set ups will be consistently quickest around any track if driven by enough expert drivers. For those less educated "best" is a superlative. "One of the best" although in common useage, is a meaningless phrase

Its a shame the car is not as good as it could have been. I am trying to find out if anything can be done about this. Much as I'd like to think a simple wheel alignment could help I know it won't make enough difference. Better tires will raise the cornering speed at which the car slides but that doesn't fix anything in the wet or on snow. Nobody will be able to change the rear suspension geometry. A camber adjustment on the lower control arm might help but these cars already run a fair amount of rear camber.

Rear toe in helps contribute to the illusion of stability so important to the novice driver. However, rear toe in sets the rear axle into a pre-oversteer condition. You don't get nothing for nothing. The reason rear toe in works is the tire runs at a higher slip angle before it even begins to corner. The toe link toes then toes in the rear wheels even more as the body rolls. The rear axle reaches maximum slip angle sooner than if initial toe in were zero. The car slides.

If the lower link developed more negative camber you might get some camber thrust but this is seriously limited because a given contact patch can only develop a certain level of grip, more or less. You can have it as slip angle generated by twisting the tire carcass or you can have it as camber thrust twisting the carcass in a different way. Motorcycles mainly use camber thrust. The contact patch delivers the cornering force, provided the shape remains optimized (and that's a very significant proviso, btw) it doesn't matter whether the cornering force is generated by slip angle or camber thrust.

Evo magazine runs a GT86 as a long termer. ALL of their editors spun their car repeatedly one wet track day (at Bedford Autodrome West Circuit an immensely popular and straightforward track where ex-F1 driver Jonathon Palmer runs a racing school) and Richard (****ie) Meaden who knows a thing or two about fast driving declared the GT86 undrivable.

They put better tires on it right away. Not much has changed in the wet (nor could it really since tire grip isn't the issue if you're spinning in the wet, any tire would lose grip, a fortiori then on snow or ice).

Litchfield stuck a turbo on, modified the springs, roll bars and dampers, fit proper tires and produced an over steering monster, in the dry. Slower than a Porsche Cayman when it should match it with 280 bhp.

CAR runs a BRZ as part of its long term fleet. December issue: "To drive it every day though, when you can't always drive it hard, you just want something else....now it's time for some grown up conversation."

If the car really bothers you, why don't you trade it in for something else? All cars will have some type of inefficiency.

I like this car just fine.

I'd like it better if it handled better. As it is you have to be 16 at heart to enjoy this car for long. If you know what you're doing it gets a tad tiresome to drive every day. It could be much better.

Not all cars can be improved from the factory.

An indicator of which ones are poorly designed in the first place and could have been much better can be gauged from the availability of aftermarket "improvements".

Think about it, you'll understand eventually.

What's your point? You have a car that you bought for $30K that doesn't drive like a Porsche. You have gripes about it. We understand that. Get Subaru to hire you to redesign the suspension geometry for future iterations. Sell it and get a Cayman. Quit whining. No one wants to listen to you go on and on about what's wrong with a car that we all own that you propose is irremediable. Live with it. Have you tracked this car? I've driven this car hard for two winters and I've never even come close to any hairy situations. Sure, I've slipped the tail out, but it's so predictable and so easy to correct that it's just plain fun. Am I going to set any rally records with it? No. Who cares? I've tracked this car two seasons. Does it handle like a Cayman? No. Is it a shitload of fun for $30K? Hell, yes. We're tired of your self-serving bullshit that doesn't provide any of the owners of this platform with any constructive information.

This argument reminds me of the early SW20 models and snap oversteer criticism:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnhiFucXoVk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnhiFucXoVk[/ame]


Example of parts that deal with the linearity of the rear suspension movment on the BRZ (concept derived from the Impreza WRX STI S203 by using pillow ball joints):

http://www.sti.jp/parts/catalogue/br...0250ZR000.html

http://www.sti.jp/parts/catalogue/br...0250AS000.html

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2QhDBShwqI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2QhDBShwqI[/ame]


BTW I was at the tire shop last week and looked at the Michelin winter product line poster. There are at least 4 models (Pilot Alpin and Primacy) above the Michelin X-Ice 3 that Suberman is using IIRC, and they seem to target high performance handling characteristics (in which the X-Ice doesn't).

Much of reviewers negativity with comparisons to other cars is really blaming the car for its poor tires.

A set of sticky tires changes everything - The car handles like a Porsche - and will outcorner the sh!tboxes it's compared to.

For the price involved its worth every penny !

Besides it's a drift racer - not Gran Prix, Formula 1 etc.

And as for your perceived nuisance level - your technical expertise and information offered contributes to our community, whether you are accurate or not, as it leads to dialogue, differing opinions and enlightenment.
Eventually someone with more technical expertise than you will chime in with more debate, info and enlightenment.

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CERBERUS

I believe there is.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I think its accessed through User CP :thumbup:

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CERBERUS

Nice theory, if in fact Suberman was actually open to listening to other or even soliciting the opinions of others.

For the most part, all of his posts have been pronouncements on the defects inherent in the design of the car. These are backed up by oblique references in online articles or seemingly random quotes from driving texts. When these are challenged with opinions from equally valid sources they are dismissed out of hand.

Suberman is one of those guys who knows everything. We all know somebody like him. He's never wrong.

He clearly thinks his car oversteers too easily. Fine, that's his opinion. If he had taken the approach of asking the community for suggestions about how to reduce the oversteer tendency and actually LISTENING to the input, nobody would have an issue.

But no, his approach has been antagonistic from the get go. This thread is a perfect example. He finds a link discussing the suspension of 2008 WRXs and somehow this is magically the reason for what he is seeing with this car.

The fact that Toyota/Subaru designed a car that is easy to drift and there are people who enjoy this are somehow below him and his driving skill and as such those people need to belittled.

So, unless he changes his approach on this forum, he's never going to get any real help because all he has done is antagonize a lot of people who may have the ability to help him out.

Suberman, I'm curious. Did you drive the BRZ before purchasing it? If so, what were your initial thoughts? Be honest.


I just find it strange that you have so many issues with the winter handling, general suspension, chassis, etc., that you didn't pick up on its inadequacies during your due diligence. You are after all, a lawyer. I would have thought that some fact pounding would have been first and foremost before laying down your hard earned cash.


Secondly, what DO you like about the car? Again, be honest. Anything...interior...styling...whatever. I'm interested in hearing a full review of the car from you (not being sarcastic).


You're obviously an older gentleman, who's had his go round with cars in the past. What was it that lured you to this one, and what's keeping you in it (despite your pretty strong objections to the engineers choices in designing it)?


I'm up for a little more grown up discussion, if you are.

AGREED
 

NOBODY likes a "know it all".

Fortunately there's lots of them - It is the intraweb after all - in conflict there is entertainment !

Better than dry boring nomenclature LOL !

:cheers:

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CEREBRUS

I say sell the car and get something that you are less unhappy with. I say "less unhappy" since you sound like you could never be satisfied. Did you not read enough about the car pre-purchase to understand that it was deliberately designed with varied degrees of tail happiness?

If you really want to improve your car, open up your wallet and visit a local shop that knows how to make it handle the way you want it to.

Or do what I did, accept the fact that there is a compromise to owning a car like this and buy a Subaru or an Audi for the winter.

Oh, and please leave this dead horse as it lay.

I question the successfulness of any lawyer who relies on driving a BRZ in the winter in Calgary. This is probably related to his inherent inadequacy with the concept of a logical argument.

:bonk::bonk:What's it matter anyway ?

I don't give a sh!t what an intraweb stranger does with his life.

I don't take the internet and forums seriously because of the anonymity.
The web for me is for knowledge, communication and entertainment.

I would take it seriously if I had a personal relationship with an internet irritator though - LOL !

:hitcomputer:


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CERBERUS

Actually I drove a hailed out FRS with 2,400 km on the odo. I drove it reasonably hard. TC was active on several corners. I redlined the engine several times as it was fully run in. The salesman was very enthusiastic and encouraged me to flog it, so I obliged.

Within 50 ft, and no exaggeration, 50 ft I decided I had to have the Subaru BRZ and not a Cayman. Had the BRZ not been available I'd have settled for an FRS. The car is that good.

I was lined up for a PDK Cayman but the FRS made that choice boneheaded. I bought the manual BRZ because the automatic in the BRZ was geared oddly compared to the manual and although I didn't drive an auto I felt it might be noticably slower. Besides, I only bought my very first automatic equipped car in 2008, and then only after a two hour test drive convinced me that ZF has indeed cracked the code and torque converter automatics are better than any manual box now made. I bought the manual shift BRZ mainly because it made no sense to do so from a technical driving perspective. This is very likely my last manual shift car and I wish to retain the driving skills I have learned.

I waited for my Subie dealer, who also sells Jaguar, to have a few in stock so I had some bargaining power. Out here these cars were basically selling off the truck.

I drove the car every weekend to break it in.

I find no faults at all with this car except its propensity to slide too easily. This makes the car slower than it needs to be and slower than it could be. For serious drivers who know how suspension is supposed to work this is very disappointing. It also means adding a supercharger will make this car a bit of a handful which may mean Toyota won't release a supercharger kit.

I have no interest in sliding around and going more slowly than I need to. I prefer a car that handles "properly" accepting the fact that this car was intentionally designed to slide too easily. The fact that this also seems to make the car ineffective as a winter driver , however much "fun" it might be to slide around so easily, just intensifies the disappointment.

I was aware that this car was designed to do this by Toyota and that the BRZ was tuned to deliver a more grown up experience. I didn't expect the BRZ to be much different from the FRS, and it isn't, but it is the version for the more serious driver.

The irony is my disappointment in this aspect of this car, the only disappointment, actually arises because this car could be so good if it didn't do this.

I accept there are buyers who like it this way, or at least think they do. Indeed, Toyota was banking on that and correctly so as it turned out. I'll go so far as to say Toyota may not have built this car without that market to sell to.

That doesn't make it correctly suspended.

I'm highly amused that some get their knickers in a twist because I had the unmitigated gall to state that I have a very high IQ. That was in specific reply to a bonehead who stated I was brainless or some such infantile insult. It happens to be true but that doesn't make me an expert. It does give me an edge in research in what I write about and in writing about it.

I'm even more amused at people who keep posting vitriol in some sort of vain attempt to belittle me or my ideas. I think I've posted enough personal information to inform anyone but a congenital idiot that I'm immune to any such attempts. You all now know I'm a barrister. Surely you can understand that a person who can withstand being grilled by the Court of Appeal isn't going to have his or her ego dented by a bunch of manic amateur critics many of whom seem to have difficulty reading let alone formulating and expressing thoughts coherently.

I'm also a pretty good driver with lots of high speed experience (after all I get free legal advice whenever I get a ticket so I don't pay many of them) but make no claim to approach the skill levels of someone like Mr Frere. What's relevant is I've driven enough machinery to know what I like and prefer and to inform others about defects in vehicle design. I'm not an engineer but I don't need to be to usefully discuss these matters on a forum like this.

How do you define better? Are you trying to set hot laps? Do you go to the track every weekend? Honestly unless you do, the car in stock form is just fine.

It's weird that you think the car oversteers too much when there are people (@csg mike) who actually track these cars and think that a stock FRS actually undetsteers during certain situations.

This is the main point that suberman has never understood. His measure of great handling is speed and form. That's not what the car is about.

If you wants a cheap little car that will be fast on a track or auto x get a Fiesta ST. That doesn't mean the Fiesta has better handling, it just means the Fiesta has better handling for that purpose.

It's also stupid to complain so much about the handling of the car when 500 bucks worth of suspension components would allow you to make it handle how ever you like.

This is still going on? Seriously?