Toyota GR86, 86, FR-S and Subaru BRZ Forum & Owners Community - FT86CLUB - Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014

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Supercharger Comparison: Innovate, Jackson, Kraftwerks, Vortech *Updated March 9 2014

I take no credit for these; all data compiled by @tendogy

http://imgur.com/a/F4D7w

Quote:

HP&TQ Curves of all Superchargers
Anytime someone asks "which supercharger is right for me?" in the forums, they are told "lol use search noob." If you search and find the power output of the different options, you get this jumbled mess.
http://i.imgur.com/N6tHzLZ.png

HP Curves of all Superchargers
Here you can see just the HP curves. I tried to find the most comparable dynos I could. These are all dynojet dynos on 91 or 92 octane. The biggest variable is how many catalytic converters are left in the system.
http://i.imgur.com/nhoiu9o.png

TQ Curves of all Superchargers
Here you can see just the TQ curves. Peak numbers are great, but what about the area under the curve? You don't want a system that makes peak power for 1 second right before you downshift, you want a system that makes power throughout the rev range!
http://i.imgur.com/uxezUSi.png

Area-Under-Curve of Stock FR-S
Here is a plot of the stock FR-S. You can see that I split the rev range into 500rpm segments and calculated the HP & TQ area for each segment. The scaling factor is irrelevant because the numbers are used for comparison only.
http://i.imgur.com/LC0YuDL.png

Area-Under-Curve for Jackson
$3995 for this kit. All dynos here are custom-tuned. The Jackson kit uses a Rotrex supercharger which claims to make more low-end power than Vortech. We'll see if that's true!
http://i.imgur.com/YXgtRcM.png

Area-Under-Curve for Kraftwerks
$4295 for this kit. This uses the same blower as the Jackson kit. These 2 cars were actually tuned by the same guy with the same gas with the same blower on the same dyno, so the difference in power between the two is probably because the Jackson car had zero catalytic converters and the Kraftwerks car had two.
http://i.imgur.com/k2SvcUF.png

Area-Under-Curve for Vortech
$4298 for this kit. Incredibly linear power delivery, peaking at the very top of the rev range.
http://i.imgur.com/CgpJdb5.png

Area-Under-Curve for Innovate Intercooled
$4195 for this kit. That torque curve is more like a torque table, it's so flat! Power delivery is very linear again, but peaks pretty low.
http://i.imgur.com/ccFmjSX.png

Area-Under-Curve for Innovate
$3195 for this kit. This kit has this price point all to itself, so I almost didn't include it, but a lot of people buy this to upgrade it. Upgrading makes the full kit cost $4395, making it the most expensive option.
http://i.imgur.com/2bv5t3D.png

Innovate/Innovate Intercooled Dyno
Here is a plot comparing the base Innovate kit to the intercooled kit. It definitely makes more power, but not much more until it gets over 7000 RPM. Worth $1200+retune? That's up to you.
http://i.imgur.com/GKntLfX.png

Jackson/Innovate Dyno
I was surprised to see the Rotrex hang with the Innovate at low-end TQ, since that is the strength of the Innovate blower. It's game-over after 4000 RPM though, with a huge 50-65HP gain at the top.
http://i.imgur.com/UEnGfZg.png

Jackson/Innovate Intercooled Dyno
The intercooled Innovate kit finally makes an appearance! It makes better power than the Jackson Rotrex until 4250 RPM then the Jackson takes off. The intercooler keeps the Innovate from losing power at the very top, but it still gives up nearly 50 hp to the Jackson.
http://i.imgur.com/VCvCPcc.png

Kraftwerks/Innovate Dyno
Once again the Rotrex hangs just fine with the innovate at the low-end TQ. You can see the Kraftwerks car has vestiges of the stock torque dip since it retains the stock header. Same story though, as it makes huge gains at the top over the Innovate kit.
http://i.imgur.com/fXifnBz.png

Vortech/Innovate Dyno
The curves are nearly identical until 5000 RPM where the Vortech finally breaks away for big gains up top.
http://i.imgur.com/iRCDwzn.png

Jackson/Kraftwerks Dyno
Here are the two Rotrex kits together. Ultimately you gain 15-25HP for after 6750 RPM if you replace the header/exhaust on a Rotrex kit. That is a lot of money for not a lot of increase, if you ask me.
http://i.imgur.com/g1735ZV.png

Jackson/Innovate Intercooled Dyno
The intercooled Innovate kit finally makes an appearance! It makes better power than the Jackson Rotrex until 4250 RPM then the Jackson takes off. The intercooler keeps the Innovate from losing power at the very top, but it still gives up nearly 50 hp to the Jackson.
http://i.imgur.com/VCvCPcc.png

Jackson/Vortech Dyno
At last we can see if a Rotrex blower really does make better low-end power than the Vortech, and the answer is NO. The two kits make identical power until 4250 RPM. Jackson wins from 4250-7000 RPM when the Vortech finally overtakes it.
http://i.imgur.com/p1MKbYk.png

Kraftwerks/Innovate Intercooled Dyno
Once again the intercooled Innovate makes better low-end power than the Kraftwerks car, but can't keep up at the top.
http://i.imgur.com/NuuT6HN.png

Kraftwerks/Vortech Dyno
Again the Rotrex and Vortech go back and forth all the way up the powerband. Which is "better"? It's really hard to tell from this plot. Further analytics were necessary.
http://i.imgur.com/LJPLtJw.png

Vortech/Innovate Intercooled Dyno
The Intercooled Innovate makes more power down low, then less power up high. If there is a stereotypical twin-screw vs centrifugal plot, this is it.
http://i.imgur.com/LgUSccG.png

Area-Under-Curve Percentage HP Increase over Stock
Remember the area-under-curve horsepower calculations? They are compared here.

How do you read it? "The HP area-under-curve for the Intercooled Innovate is 25% greater than stock from 2500-3000 RPM." and "The area-under-curve for Vortech is ~60% greater than stock from 6000-6500 RPM.
http://i.imgur.com/Aw2PIJy.png

Area-Under-Curve Percentage TQ Increase over Stock
This is the same thing, but for Torque numbers. It's virtually identical! What do these tell us?

The Innovate Intercooled enjoys a 10-20% domination, but only until 4000 RPM. The regular Innovate can keep pace until 4000 RPM, but then falls off doing 50% worse than centrifugal kits.

These charts also make it clear that the Vortech's powerband is 5-15% inferior to the Rotrex powerbands from 4000-7000 RPM.
http://i.imgur.com/DyNF22C.png

Area-Under-Curve HP Over Rev Range
What if you add up all the area-under-curve HP numbers for each segment? You get this chart. This demonstrates that 10% better at the low end and 10% worse at the high end means that you will win a top-to-bottom race every time. The Intercooled Innovate kit is neck-and-neck with the Kraftwerks kit until 6000 RPM, but it just can't keep up afterwards.
http://i.imgur.com/XW5u6su.png

Area-Under-Curve TQ Over Rev Range
Here is the same chart, but for TQ numbers.

Everybody has different goals and different budgets, but hopefully now we can have a little more knowledge of the powerband characteristics of each supercharger system.

The Vortech kit makes very linear power, but peaks at the very end. When you downshift you go all the way back down to 200 hp and have to climb the power mountain again. I'm not a big fan of that.

The Kraftwerks and Jackson kits use the same blower, so I tend to lump their powerbands together. I like that when you downshift at redline, you're still making 225hp. I also like that you don't have to push the engine all the way to 7400 RPM to make peak power.

The Innovate kit is an odd duck. On the one hand, the base kit can keep up with the big boys at the low end, and still makes fun power up top. Still, it's only a 33% power increase up top, so you will probably start eyeing that intercooler. What then?

If you buy an intercooler upgrade, you now have the most expensive supercharger there is while making the least amount of total power. It makes great power down low, but to take real advantage of this you have to seriously upgrade your tires which is even more expensive.

Buying the intercooler kit from the get-go makes a lot more sense. I can see some people valuing the ease-of-installation enough to take this route, but for my money the Vortech and Rotrex powerbands are too attractive at this price point to pass up.

This examination obviously did not compare ease-of-installation, customer service, maintenance, longevity, or any other number of factors at play. This looked specifically at powerband characteristics to help people see through the marketing and the hype when choosing where to spend their thousands of dollars.
http://i.imgur.com/0DLJYjr.png

*edit*

Source dynos:

Innovate Intercooled
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...65&postcount=1
https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.n...97660190_o.jpg

Innovate 70mm pulley, non-intercooled
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...postcount=1914
http://imageshack.us/a/img801/5376/nrh4.png

Kraftwerks
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...89&postcount=1
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...7&d=1387071025

Jackson Racing
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=53
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...5&d=1386975647

Vortech
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=15
http://www.moto-east.com/dynos/ft86/vortech_brz.jpeg

***UPDATE***

Quote:

Originally Posted by tendogy

To improve this supercharger comparison I recently read through the Innovate and Kraftwerks owners threads, as well as the Vortech and Jackson Racing discussion threads. I aimed to compile all the owner-reported issues to try to gain some understanding into a few questions. The following chart shows the number of owner-reported issues-per-month from those threads as of March 2014.

http://i.imgur.com/r4Ho9sO.png

The compilation data and more links are in the following posts:

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=198

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=202

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...&postcount=212

Obviously this is good stuff, but who made it? Does it have the tuner info listed for each?

Even happier now I went with Jackson!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1452341)

Obviously this is good stuff, but who made it? Does it have the tuner info listed for each?

"tendogy" on Reddit.

The Rotrex graphs are Drift Office's graphs. I'm not sure on the source for the rest.

Would be interesting to see a smaller pulley on the vortech as it has the headroom to spin a bit faster, but can't complain as this is currently the best SC vs SC comparison as far as power goes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1452366)

"tendogy" on Reddit.

The Rotrex graphs are Drift Office's graphs. I'm not sure on the source for the rest.

Ah, so not the same dyno?

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJCarbine (Post 1452375)

Ah, so not the same dyno?

They're all Dynojets

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJCarbine (Post 1452374)

Would be interesting to see a smaller pulley on the vortech as it has the headroom to spin a bit faster, but can't complain as this is currently the best SC vs SC comparison as far as power goes.

With that reasoning, every kit here has headroom to be spun faster. IMO, this is the best "out of the box with tune" comparison. Each setup is running a custom tune to maximize the potential of the given setup.

as with anything, I'd take this with a grain of salt as it's comparing everything from cars with stock exhaust/cats to cars with full exhaust/no cats, catbacks, etc. I can only assume based on the variances in modifications on the cars, that there were also different dynos used as well (Even if they're all on dynojets, were they all on the same dynojet? I've seen numbers vary as much as 10hp on the same day between two different dynojets on the same car)

It is good to see this comparison, even with non-identical cars you have a good idea of what to expect from each kit. Another great comparison would be a summary of the additional weight of each kit. I have seen numbers for the Innovate kits but not the others.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CSG Mike (Post 1452388)

Thats why I said it would be "nice", just how it would be nice if they were all the same physical dyno, ambient conditions etc.

The pulley swap is also popular with the vortech crowd, so it would be nice if it was on there... thats all I'm saying :thumbsup:

My opinion may be biased though lol

Really interesting seeing all the superchargers compared like this. At first I was going to say it's unfair putting the JRSC in there with full catless exhaust, but it looks like there's not much difference between its results and (the similar unit) Kraftwerks SC with 2 cats and CBE. Not sure what to make of that.

I've managed to get into contact with the individual who created these graphs. He did it as part of his research for his own purchase. I'll have the source dynos soon.

All in all, it's just data. I'm just trying to make sure the data is as complete as I can get it, as it's pretty difficult to get 5 different setups on the same dyno, same day, same conditions, unless you have a testing cell.... (Hmmmm Honda Racing/Honda Performance Development, can I call in a favor? I promise not to do bad things with the V6 S2000 [S3700?] while you guys are testing...)

That intercooled innovate plot is from innovate itself so it is a canned tune.

As with all dyno comparisons you have to take it with a grain of salt but all in all this is a very comprehensive look at the power/torque characteristics of each kit. If I was to do supercharging over again I would definitely go with one of the rotrex kits. :thumbsup:

So much WIN in this thread. Thanks Mike!

Subbed like a bawse.

OP delivers

Rotrex delivers

In before @gmsii gets in here and raises hell

Great data, too bad we can't get a apples to apples comparison (same mods) but this is a great effort. It really shows the characteristics of these kits. I live in the 2k-5k range daily so the Innovate is nice for me. I can see why a lot of people prefer a more peak HP oriented kit, that's fun too!

Quote:

Originally Posted by sw20kosh (Post 1452508)

Those are wrong.

The first graph is Innovate Intercooled (from innovate themselves).

The second graph is my car which at the time had smaller 70 mm pulley, no intercooler, header and full catless exhaust.

Err, I mislabeled the graphs when I was citing sources, but I'll let the guy who made em know that the Innovate dyno is on a smaller pulley and catless.

innovate intercooled is worse then the non intercooled

edit: you already noticed :)

So, who's the overall winner here??? :P

Great post confirms lots of win for the Rotrex that's for sure.

What we need is a group of fruitcakes to get together, at a shop have a single tuner do each car and dyno all same place.

Then we can have a raffle:

Who can count how many coolers the Rotrex kits have?
How many Vortechs have leaky washer bottles and grinding pulleys?
How many non-IC Innovate kits heat soak after 2 runs?
How many quarts of coolant can the Innovate IC kit loose in an hour?
Bonus, which Tuners blow the most motors?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramiram1984 (Post 1452597)

@CSG Mike
Jackson Racing
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...89&postcount=1
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...7&d=1387071025

Kraftwerks
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...3&postcount=53
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/attac...5&d=1386975647

Mike, these are flip flopped. The KW under here is actually my JR. The JR is actually the KW SC.

Ooops. Corrected!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1452602)

What we need is a group of fruitcakes to get together, at a shop have a single tuner do each car and dyno all same place.

Then we can have a raffle:

Who can count how many coolers the Rotrex kits have?
How many Vortechs have leaky washer bottles and grinding pulleys?
How many non-IC Innovate kits heat soak after 2 runs?
How many quarts of coolant can the Innovate IC kit loose in an hour?
Bonus, which Tuners blow the most motors?

To include you, fruitcake?

Mike did you ever see a quality SC comparison on the S2k? Same place same time etc?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OICU812 (Post 1452586)

Great post confirms lots of win for the Rotrex that's for sure.

This is VERY true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramiram1984 (Post 1452620)

To include you, fruitcake?

All the real fruitcakes are on the west coast including tuners.
If someone set something up I would drive my ass 4000 miles to be apart of it this spring and of course video the results etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1452631)

All the real fruitcakes are on the west coast including tuners.
If someone set something up I would drive my ass 4000 miles to be apart of it this spring and of course video the results etc.

Man, I would love to see a video of yours on such an event! Love your videos and watched them all! If the opportunity arises, please do so!

We could set up a fund to pay for your expenses! :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dezoris (Post 1452622)

Mike did you ever see a quality SC comparison on the S2k? Same place same time etc?

Nope. Never more than 2 setups.

I do know a place that is reliable that has around 1400 different s2k dynos....

I can, however, make this happen if we have enough volunteers (and they don't flake). Even then, it'll all be a bit variable, since it'll be almost impossible to get volunteers for every permutation...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mad1723 (Post 1452635)

Man, I would love to see a video of yours on such an event! Love your videos and watched them all! If the opportunity arises, please do so!

We could set up a fund to pay for your expenses! :D

Haha thanks!! I will need to stay in a 5 star hotel and rent the whole floor out and have a helicopter take me to the dyno.
@CSG Mike you have contacts/shop/tuner who are good willing do set this up?

And maybe plan it around one of the track days as well?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ramiram1984 (Post 1452577)

So, who's the overall winner here??? :P

It's obviously all of us.

derrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

Wow great thread. Thanks to the person who did all of the hard work putting this together. Those Rotrex units are pretty damn stout. I really want a turbo, but the Rotrex units give the exact power curve I'm looking for.

CSG Mike is dah shit. Thanks for putting all this together.

Must send Secret Squirrel to investigate rumors of Sprintex 210 plus.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport (Post 1452717)

Must send Secret Squirrel to investigate rumors of Sprintex 210 plus.

No worries. I got you.

Told Hodor to send out a raven already.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS + MS3 (Post 1452676)

It's obviously all of us.

DUH.

Should have used "derrrr"

:D

Quote:

Originally Posted by JS + MS3 (Post 1452734)

No worries. I got you.

Told Hodor to send out a raven already.

Winter is coming