Downsizing Wheels and Tires -- I Want Less Grip and More Sidewall!
 

While we have all been chasing the look of big rims and rubber band sidewalls for close to two decades now, I've increasingly been of the opinion that smaller diameter wheels with bigger sidewalls gives me better handling. This notion was reinforced recently by going to 16" for my winter tires and realizing how fantastic they feel in both snow AND in dry conditions.

I like more rubber because the greater sidewall flex gives MUCH more organic, more driftable, more progressive handling. The car is much more communicative and when it slides, it does so much more gradually. There is also more feedback. When you are using the throttle to steer the car, you feel much more of the chassis's changes with the added sidewall flex. I get to enjoy more of this chassis's great balance MORE of the time without having to go heroically or stupidly fast to do it.

I think the trend towards bigger and bigger rims in the past two decades has gone completely overboard. Designers increasingly cut bigger holes in the body to accommodate bigger and bigger rims for no reason other than fashion. Not only are cars looking more and more cartoonish, but they aren't handling or riding any better. When will this upsizing end? 25"?

If we look toward Formula 1 as the pinnacle of 4 wheel technology where form follows function, you'll see that F1 cars do not have rubber band tires. They have proper meaty sidewalls with lots of rubber.

Anyway, the point of my post is that I want to downsize even my summer tires to 16s. 205/55/16 seems to be the sweet spot for me. The FT86 doesn't have a ton of power to begin with and I am having MOST fun when the chassis is sliding and drifting underneath me anyway and not when I'm gripping as much as possible.

A side bonus: tires are cheaper to replace. Great for track days.

Though it appears that finding a nice set of 16" alloys will end up costing as much as if not more than 17"s.


- Has anyone else gone for the unusual move of downsizing tires and reducing width? Track guys?
- Which wheels did it you do it with?

http://cdn.mkimg.carview.co.jp/minka...4770646/p1.jpg
The RG362 BBS Wheel is my pick right now based on looks, but I don't know if it's a direct fit (it should be).

http://i.imgur.com/BT1ID.jpg
An OEM 16" does exist in the JDM world, but does not look easy or cheap to get.

http://cdn.mkimg.carview.co.jp/minka...t=fa2e0ddf7308

The ENKEI Sport Tarmac seems to be a decent looking choice, though not easily available and expensive.

So... comments? Suggestions? What have others done?

Amen brother, i just wish the stock 16s i got were wider. If ur looking for a set of stock 16's shoot me a pm.

I loved the 215/50/15 Toyota had going on here.

http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-conte...-80s-86-07.jpg

I read an interesting article that more sidewall prevents more "two whee" drifts and more "four wheel" drifts. Though it be interesting to see a comparison of a twin running a 50 compared to a 40 or 45.

I have the stock 16's, 2005 celica 16's (which you should be able to get over there) a heaps of 17s, and a set of 18s.

What you're getting at is correct. Lower profile is worse in terms of grip, both in straight line, but especially lateral grip. That's why for drifting I use 205/40/17, that let go laterally very easily. The let go easier that the 215/45/17s I have, which let go easier than the 205/50/16s I have. Which let go easier that the 205/55/16 (16" stock tyres) I have. Note the profiles.

The 205/55/16s don't even like being sideways, they grip up fairly quickly. But they are a bit too wollowy in the corner. Not as direct as I'd like.

Modern, super low profile tyres have to over come this by better design. But the same design in a better profile would be better. For example a 255/40/17 will (IMO) have loads more grip than a 255/35/18. The only reason to run the 18" over the 17" is because you have massive brakes (that are most likely unnecessary) or for looks. And hey I'm not knocking that, I have a set myself. But I also accept that they're probably they're for looks.

If you want further confirmation, just look at any race slick manufacturer. In a 16" they're generally 210/610; which is equivalent of a 205/50 give or take.
A 17 is usually a 230/630-640, and 18s are generally 270/680. 15s are generally 200/580.

Note something? The tyre diameter ALWAYS increases (the first number is width, the second is diameter) Unlike street tyres, the profile is not a proportion of the width.
While a 'tuner' will increase their wheel and decrease their tyre profile.

Most people with modified 86's would not accept that their car with 5-10% more power and 18" wheels, would be slower around a track than a stock car with 16's.

As far as wheel choice in 16's; I have a set of ssr type c's in 16x7; they're only 4.9kg :)
The celica wheels I mentioned (that are cheap)
Enkei Compe have been re-released in a 16x8 +25, that looks alright.

You can also step down to a 15 if you wanted to. They do clear the brakes, they even clear some BBKs, the wilwood wrx kit, AP racing sprint. At a 15" there's a very small window though. In a 15x7 you need at least a +25 to clear the ball joint at the front (as it won't fit inside a 15" rim) and depending on the wheel/spoke design, you might need a +10 or +5 to clear the BBK you choose. That offset might seem cray cray. But guys are comfortably running a 9.5" +38, which is the same poke as a 7" +7, give or take.

I'm thought about running 15" wheels like that on the track, that's why I've done the research/measurements. I think an 86 on 15" watanabes with 205/580/15 slicks would be awesome. Lower COG, common size for race tyres; it's actually the same size I use with my ae86, so share tyre size between the two would be handy. Sure, it might not please the stance nation crew. But do you like driving the car, or wanking over pictures of it? (Guess which one the stance nation crew do)

This is something I constantly think about. I am adding power to my car (mild turbo application) so I thought I should go with wider rims. Then some brembos came along that were a good price so now I need wider, bigger rims. Here I am now with heavier, taller, and wider 18'S with heavier brakes and I am worried that I am just betraying my car...

I almost want to sell the rims and tires before even mounting them and see how well my stock wheels and tires handle the power for now. I know new pads would be all I need for the brakes, it is a street driven car. I could switch to new rotors if I want the looks and that would at least reduce my weight, not increase it like I did.

Problem is though, good new tyres would cost me just as much as my rims and tyres from wheel dude....and getting wider, light weight rims to match would have cost me more than rims, tyres and brembos!

At the same time, I know I could keep this set up for a little while, and then sell them when I have the money to get the light wheels I always wanted (like TC105Ns or RPF1s) ...brakes are still an issue tho. I believe I over committed I feel :cry:

After rereading the OP, I see that this is about having more fun. IMO a 205/40/16 will be the most fun, followed by a 205/45/16; but both those tyre sizes are expensive.
A 205/50/16 is much cheaper, but I've found reacts similar to a 205-215/45/17.
A 205/55/16 has more sideways grip, and asi said above is a little spongey. I wouldn't recommend it as a fun tyre.
A 205/40/17 is your best best for a fun tyre. It let's go easily, shortens the gearing a bit, and it's common, so it's cheap.

Really interested in this article, mind digging it out and link it here?

Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

Really? A15" will squeeze over to stock callipers? I was planning on a set of 16" wheels for track duty so that I could run a shorter tire, effectively altering my final drive ratio for track use while still being able to maintain the regular final drive to maintain mileage while not at a track.

But if I can go to a 15 that would be even better. But can we get 15x8 to propery fit a 225/45-15?

I know how you feel. I did a similar thing. Got supercharger, then bbk, then big wheels. I'm just know undoing it all. I like driving my car NA with small wheels better than i did with FI and big wheels.

You need to do your own measurements TBH as it's tight. I have two 15" wheels, one fits, one doesn't. They have different clearance on the inside of the barrel.

Here's some pics I took confirming that the ap racing sprint kit fits a 15x7 0 that I had in my garage. The endurance kit also JUST fit, but only left 1mm clearance, where as recommended is 2.5mm

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ps6d4ffefa.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psf54ca965.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ps6ad88ef2.jpg

If you're thinking about getting a 15" track set, get out of this mind set that wider is better. Wider is better, once you don't have better compounds. For a track set, go a 195/50 or 205/50 semi slick, both will have loads more grip than a typical 235 road tyre. When you want more grip than the semis, get some second hand full slicks. 15s are very common so you'll get a set very very cheap.

Ok this may work out well. We are moving from a 15x7 to a 15x8 for the chumpcar. So the old track lites will be doing nothing. 15x7 and 5x100. Just hope the offset is right. Thanks for the suggestion, can't hurt to check!

Here you go.

http://www.speedhunters.com/2013/01/...he-80s-trd-86/

195 fit safely on a 15x7? I know some in the Honda crowd who run away from this on the track.

I see myself going to lighter, narrower wheels down the road. Will be like a rebirth haha

http://www.speedhunters.com/wp-conte...-80s-86-07.jpg


This is beautiful to me.

They're recommended for use on a 7". I use 195/50/15 semi slick on a 15x8 for drifting in my ae86, and it's stretched.

It would be nice to run a 16x7 with a 205/50/16 tire.

Might go for this with Enkei rpf1 unless i find something good local.

So tempting...

Shocks and springs first!

I wouldn't mind some lightweight 16x7-8 wheels (like the Enkei Sport Tarmacs) but tire choice in 16" is the worst of any tire size now (there use to be a lot more choice, but its extremely hard to find good 16" performance tires now) and prices are more expensive than 17" tires. I select the tires then decide wheel size based on tire availability, which is why I decided to stay with 17's for the FR-S. I think my next set of tires will be 205/40-17 Max performance summer tires to be at maximum width fit for the 17x7.5 Enkei Fujin's for responsiveness and minimum weight for a 17" tire. The lighter you can get your tire/wheel combo the better the car rides and handles...dropping unsprung weight really is noticeable with the FR-S and makes the car a joy.

Thanks for the great suggestions, guys. And for the personal experience, diss7.

Very interesting to hear that the taller profile, smaller diameter, narrower tires are giving you more grip at the track!

I love the 80s looking 15" that TRD put together. Combined with the lowered ride height it looks very hunkered and retro.

I wonder if I actually prefer the 'wallowy' feel that you describe in the 205/55/16s. The reason is that I like the progressive behaviour where it lets go not suddenly, but gradually. More 'feel' for me. But you could also think that it's mushy and not responsive.

225/45 x 16
 

I just bought 225/45 x 16 Direzza ZII's ($129 each) mounted on Andros Spec D 16 x 7.5 ($99 each ) from the Tire Rack for track day tires. Can't wait to try them this spring.

I also hate the shift towards bigger tires. Got 16" for the winter, and am also considering another set of 16" rims and tires for the warmer months. For the winter I ended up getting 16x6.5 subaru forester rims on craigslist (for $120, decent deal!) and put on 205/60/16s, mainly because of price. $71 per tire, brand new! Car is pretty easy to drift in the snow, but I really gotta apply power to make it break free on wet roads. But, the steering response isn't as nice as the stock tires (but still pretty good), and you definitely feel more resistance from the car when making sharper turns.

except wider is better in this case. a 15x9 is going to be a faster rim than a 15x7. 225/45 is going to be faster than 205/50 on those respective rims. using a slick to "typical road tire" comparisons only pollute that fact.

im also curious to hear your reasoning for thinking more sidewall is good for grip. you use sizings for slicks but those tires are cantilevered and have no value when comparing tires of different construction.

My point was that it's better to upgrade to a better compound if you're chasing more grip.

Re: profile. In my experience, very low profile tyres offer sub optimal performance.

okay well i agree with that but i just think you can make that point without implying that a narrow wheel would be better

I definitely like this idea and I'm seeing more and more people wondering about this on this board. Hoping that opens up more options, I haven't seen very many good looking 16" options. If I go 16s I do want them to look decent/good since they won't be an exclusively track only wheel/tire combo for me. But I love the idea of this dropping weight on the wheel/tire combo without sacrificing performance/looks if I can find the right combo.


Right now, I think the best size I would want is a 16x8 with a decent offset. My reasoning is I can use that wheel for just about anything on NA power levels. Could daily drive that with a street tire and someday if I start tracking the car a lot I could always switch it over to track only and still get a decently wide tire on there for this car's weight/power level.

Running same wheel spec and tyre spec setup currently(daily wheels), the ride is so comfy(so to speak while on coilovers) compared to the 17's. RPF1's are a great choice, esp at 6.22kgs.

There's also a new release by ROTA wheels, pretty darn cheap at under $200 AUD per corner, probably cheaper in the states where you are. They are obviously SprintHart CP-R knockoffs but look good and have that classic stepped lip on them.
http://www.rotawheels.com.au/media/m...-20_-20_c1.jpg
btw, I don't usually like rota's but these would be good for some cheap, relatively light track wheels(7.3kg - smaller diameter wheel so cent. forces are different.. less mass toward outside - more on inside). Or just daily's you don't care about. Plus genuine CP-R's are hard to come by - 16x7's weight 4.9kg derp

Find second hand wheels before going to rota crap. There's heaps of Facebook groups and things for genuine wheels. Some posts are from guys in Japan and they'll give quotes for landed in aus or Nz or us. Brand new rota's are about $1200 in Nz. I've bought 3 sets of volks and a set of ssr's, all for under a grand each. The good thing is 5x100 isn't popular so you get good deals second hand. As the seller might've be sitting on them for ages.

Here's a couple of pics I took last night as I was hooning around a new industrial estate. No action shots it was only me. But I have 16" ssr's on the back and 17" volks on the front.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...pshltycfae.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...psgw5suow2.jpg

Haha what's wrong with ROTA Crap? :P If it's for a cheap track setup.. I think it would be fine, depends on how SMOOTH the track is though lol!

That being said, they have a nice(imho) 'throwback' design coming out shortly.
Kinda old-school-meets-futuristic-concavity-newschool-but-somewhat-functional? I say functional as although it has the outer vents for hot air dissipation for the brakes, they aren't nearly as square as the OG 'turbo fan' setups which it is trying to mimic.
I think this would be the 16x8(which is the widest one in that range)
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/...ps5db38b1d.jpg
http://i1005.photobucket.com/albums/...psa6e709f3.gif

"New for 2014, Rota Wheels UK is hugely excited to launch the D154, a retro-style design available in an aggressive 16x8in ET20 and ET30 fitment. Taking inspiration from the classic ‘turbofan’ wheels of the 80s, Rota has applied a modern twist to the D154 mixing a concave centre along with a vented lip for a truly unique look!"


Anyway, I think these(BELOW) would be a good choice(if you can get them at a reasonable cost) - they are German made wheels so freight might be a bit pricey. I've priced up a set already, and its about $1800ish landed, not sure if I will get stung with GST and all the other govt fee BS that comes along with it though. Oh, they come in 18x8, but if your going 18's that kinda defeats the purpose of going for a turbofan style wheel since you'd have BBK..

Ronal R50 Aero 16
http://www.mijnalbum.nl/GroteFoto-ZVRTOH48.jpg

If you are downsizing also, it is better to check whether the wheel you want will fit the BBK(you may want.. later down the track). But if you do a combination of better pads, brake fluid, s/s lines(if you really have to), rotors, brake ducting($300-350) and active brake cooling(turbo fan type wheels) and lots of weight reduction I believe(imho of course) you really don't need a BBK unless your doing 8-9+ laps at a time.

Who needs monster wheels/tires
 

In my olden (MBA) days, a GM guy came to talk to us about Hummer marketing. The end-user profile of Hummers mainly consisted of three types:

1 The real macho's (or red-necks), think Arnold Schwarzenegger type, they account for about 30%;

2 Smaller women, they account for slightly under 20%; and

3 Smaller men who want a big piece of metal to boost their self-esteem, they were the biggest user-group accounting for more than 30%!

The GM marketing guy also mentioned a similar user-profile of monster wheels/tires. Yes, it is partly fashion trend. But also a subtle phallic symbol to shore up the self-esteem of smaller men.

I am too old to worry about fashion or the sexual implication of my wheels. I am putting in super-light 16-inch wheel with 205/55-16 tires, reducing the unsprung weight by about 8lb per corner. I am also putting in 2-piece front brake rotors, shedding another 4lb per corner. Reducing the unsprung weight by 12lb per corner in the front, and 8lb per corner in the back, will improve the ride and handling significantly. Although the ultimate road holding will be slightly reduced. But I don't race my FT-86, so I don't care.

I am even thinking about getting the smaller anti-roll bars (16mm solid front/14mm hollow rear) from Cusco to further reduce the unsprung weight and lessen the interference (to the suspension geometry) from the anti-roll bars.

The only un-decided issue is whether I should install softer struts/shocks. Because if the unsprung weight is reduced significantly, the struts/shocks should also be softened to match. Should I get a set of yellow Konis and set them all the way to soft? Or I could get the OEM BRZ rear shocks? The BRZ have softer OEM rear springs, so the OEM BRZ rear shocks should also be slightly softer.

By the way, I have a set of Enkei RPF-1 (16x7), and a set of Kosei TS (14x6). My wife bent one Enkei (very slightly) when she went over a pot-hole, but no issue with the Kosei yet. My suggestion: one should get a set of 5 (one for spare), if these super-light wheels are used.

I think you mean where form follows a set of rule designed to force technological innovation :thumbsup:

I run 16x7 OEM Subaru wheels off a 2.5RS with 205/55/16s for winter, and a set of Volk TE37s 16X7 with 225/50/16 Hankook RS-3s for summer.

Any pics of said volk rs-3s combo?
I'm still undecided on wheels and am looking at function over form for the track.

Plus 1 on that

Not yet, I got the set second hand from someone a few weeks ago and havent had time to test fit them yet, as well as I am still waiting on my springs and sway bars to come in.