Dealership Accuses Variable Valve Timing (VVT) Ajustment
 

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to see if I can get some input on this issue and to help deliver a response to Corporate. Any input is good especially from engine mechanics, tuners and any engine enthusiasts.

Here's the scoope:

I have my FR-S at a dealership to be looked it for a blown engine. Originally, I had a turbo on the engine (GReddy) but did not do any modifications to the engine block itself. I reversed the add-ons (from what corporate requested) putting the car back to stock for Toyota to do a diagnostics. I dropped it off at the dealership and a couple days later received a phone call from them. The dealership's Service Manager accused me (and/or my tuner) of adjusting my Variable Vavle Timing (VVT) because of the turbo install. He stated the "Cover was on upside down and the timing was adjusted."

Now why would I or my tuner adjust that if no engine work was done? So my question for you all is:

1. Would you have to remove the engine (or a part of the engine) to see/adjust the VVT?

2. Can you tell the VVT has been adjusted if a diagnostics was not completed?

3. Has anyone adjusted the VVT before without doing engine work?


Please advise. Any imput would really help. Thanks all and Happy Holidays!! :)

I just faxed this thread over to your dealer.

So, you put a turbo kit on.
Engine go kaboom, what do you expect the dealer to do? give you a new engine?

Which dealer? I'm from Omaha. WHO ARE YOU?

Why are you even at the dealer? I don't see how this goes well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by s2d4 (Post 1395391) So, you put a turbo kit on. Engine go kaboom, what do you expect the dealer to do? give you a new engine?

It’s a little more complicated than what I had posted. But thanks for your input…

Quote:

Originally Posted by husker741 (Post 1395402) Which dealer? I'm from Omaha. WHO ARE YOU?

My car is not at an Omaha dealership and it would be wise not to talk about the dealership’s name. I am only looking for guidance on the main questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport (Post 1395408) Why are you even at the dealer? I don't see how this goes well.

Thanks for asking; it’s not going too well as you and I both know. However, the dealership I bought my car from never noted or repaired any of the issues I brought to their attention over several months. They claimed everything was normal. This was prior to the turbo installation. The turbo didn’t do any engine damage (it was on for under 600miles). The issues were a direct result of Toyota miss-timing the VVT. Overall, I want to know if it is possible for the dealership to sell a new car with a flipped VVT cover and if anyone has seen this. It’s kind of interesting to buy a faulty car from the get-go.
Also, would a dealership intentionally mess with the VVT and blame it on the customer? Thanks

you admitted to the dealership that you put a turbo in the car? big mistake.

I think all bets are off here in regards to getting your motor fixed under warranty since you had a turbo kit installed and proceeded to blow up the engine. I am not sure which specific part of the FA20 AVCS cover could be flipped. Can you ask for pics from the dealer.

Once you put the turbo on, you forfeit your warranty on the drivetrain, regardless of defects, UNLESS you can prove the defect caused the failure. The burdon of evidence will fall on you.

In this case, if the timing was indeed altered, then you need to take it up with the shop that did the install/tuning.

Pictures from the dealership would be a good idea. I will ask them. Thanks :)

True, I'm well aware of that. I actually do have pictures, metrics and data logging, an extensive detail of what specifically was moded, etc. None of my mods should have caused this big of an issue.

I did verify with my tuner (which is one of the top tuners on this forum--name intentionlly left out for now) and they've never touched the VVT. There was no reason for me to adjust that for the small direct bolt on kit I had.

Thanks for some guidance! :)

Best of luck! Keep us updated.

If your car got messed up by the dealer service dept, your best bet here is establishing some sort of paper trail that shows that your dealer had a reason (think TSB) to be mucking around with the AVCS. There are a couple of AVCS related TSBs. Start there.

What were you doing when it failed?

There's not much the dealership can do. Once you install the turbo your warranty is already voided so if anything goes wrong they won't cover it.

What exactly are you trying to get the dealer to fix? What type of TSB/issues are you having with your engine?

The blanket statements about voided warranty are mostly in response to your post... because some important details are being left out.

-alex

Ignoring the turbo kit and whether or not it caused the engine failure... What VVT cover are they talking about? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe ask them to send you a picture of what they're talking about. I can't think of anything that will fit upside down with regards to the timing chain area. I don't recall off the top of my head, but it may be possible to install the valve cover upside down, but that has nothing to do with modifying cam timing on these engines.

Usually, modifications to the AVCS timing is done through ECM tuning.

Aftermarket turbos are a game changer for a drive train warranty. That's the risk you knowingly take going in to this. It's a risk vs reward proposition. Good luck fighting corporate over this one. You're going to need it.

I can't help with your current situation, but for future incidents like this you should have them document the fact that you came in earlier with problems prior to the turbo install. Of course this needed to be done back when you first brought it in.

Take for example the crickets. The very first person to experience it might have been told it's normal and sent away. 4 years later he learns about all the threads in this forum and goes back to the dealer, way past warranty. The documentation detailing the issue can be used to retroactively get the fix, past warranty, because you were there within the warranty period.

This isn't foolproof, but it gives you a leg to stand on.

So you had the turbo on the car for 600 miles, Motor doesn't like the turbo and blows up after only 600 miles with it on, you take the kit off.

VVT isn't adjusted manually like that, it would be adjusted via ECM. i'd have to say your tuner had a part in the failure if VVT is even related, which I truly doubt.

Sounds like the dealer gave you a verbal agreement to look into it providing you took the turbo off and returned it to factory, they realized they made a mistake, the turbo was likely the cause of the failure but since they have no evidence of a turbo other than your word they have to find some fault with the car to blame you for tinkering hoping you'll back down.

It's nasty no matter how you look at it. Bottom line is unless we've got pictures or a third party that's reliable (hah it's the internet) the answer is going to be "you've got to pay to play". Engines don't blow up for no reason, whether it be melted seals, fucked up timing or bad fuel, there is evidence and right now Occam's razor says "because tarbo".

Edit: This is why when somebody is OD'ing paramedics don't care about the law, only the correct solution, lying ends up in death. Sure lie about how often you floss, but when it comes to the stuff you don't know you're usually better off being honest or at least taking responsibility.

Edit 2: 600 miles with turbo is not a get out of jail card, you can do a lot of damage with a lot fewer miles.

VVT Cover!? You mean the valve cover? I don't think you can actually bolt that backwards.....

If you do bolt that backwards, it won't even line up correctly.

And also, I'm pretty sure VVTI is controlled by the ECU. If you flashed your ECU with a tune (which I'm pretty sure you did because of the turbo), that WILL adjust the valve timing. That's why tuners get paid well. Figuring out all the math for the timing.

This car DOES have a black box so data is recorded and can be pulled.

So as of now... No I don't think your valve cover can be put on backwards and yes your VVT-i CAN be adjusted or would have been adjusted.

Options? 1) Take it like a man and dish out the dough for a new engine 2) Tow it to another Toyota Dealer and hope they fix it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralph Spoilsport (Post 1395883) If your car got messed up by the dealer service dept, your best bet here is establishing some sort of paper trail that shows that your dealer had a reason (think TSB) to be mucking around with the AVCS. There are a couple of AVCS related TSBs. Start there. What were you doing when it failed?

No, the dealership should have not touched the car yet. And there were no modifications to the engine block. We only added the external turbo and updated the fuel tables.

I was driving the car normally to a meeting when the engine started to make some bad noises. More like, I’m assessing there was a misfire and knocked the engine out of alignment. I pulled over and turned the car off, waited a minute and started her back up. Still had the same noise and no CEL codes or warning appeared. The ECU recorded noted no issues. A couple seconds later the engine locked up while in an idle. I wasn’t pushing the car or spinning up the turbo at all that morning.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mav1178 (Post 1396008) What exactly are you trying to get the dealer to fix? What type of TSB/issues are you having with your engine?

Thanks Alex; you are absolutely correct. They are blanket statements. My only action with the dealership is to get some assistance on the TSBs that are out. I have more than enough information to build a really good case, metrics, sources, and all. It’s just spending the time and money to prove a point. Overall, I really want to get the ECU firmware update that has been identified as a large contributor of these engine issues.

But I’m not leaving too much information out. Honestly, I don’t race my car and I didn’t build it for big gains. The turbo was on for about 600miles (mainly highway since it took me 450miles to drive from my tuner back home). The biggest thing was the issues were present prior to the turbo and the dealership never logged any of the times I was in the shop. That was unfortunate for me. I’ve read some successes with members that have had turbos on and through time Subaru (maybe Toyota) has fixed the issues. I’m trying the same route but it will be a long road.

Quote:

Originally Posted by andrew20195 (Post 1396485) Ignoring the turbo kit and whether or not it caused the engine failure... What VVT cover are they talking about? That doesn't make sense to me. Maybe ask them to send you a picture of what they're talking about. I can't think of anything that will fit upside down with regards to the timing chain area. I don't recall off the top of my head, but it may be possible to install the valve cover upside down, but that has nothing to do with modifying cam timing on these engines.

Thank you, Thank you, Thank you. That was the response I was looking for. I will be sure to get more information from the dealership soon. The regional manager should be at the dealership today to look at the engine. Overall, if they [the dealership] is claiming the AVCS has been adjusted I am curious if the AVCS was installed wrong from stock. My tuner would never touch the AVCS and the only people that have touched my car is myself, my tuner, the dealership and the shop that put the car together prior to sale. Thanks again!

Quote:

Originally Posted by connorlug (Post 1396620) So you had the turbo on the car for 600 miles, Motor doesn't like the turbo and blows up after only 600 miles with it on, you take the kit off.

Thank you! Another response I was looking for! When I was told by the dealership that my AVCS/VVT was adjusted I was pretty shocked. I called my tuner immediately after the phone call with the dealership and asked them. The response was great: “Hell no! We don’t touch any part of the AVCS/VVT.” Which would only leave myself, the dealership and the shop prior to sale. Continuing, I wouldn’t have knowledge of adjusting or messing with the AVCS.

To add, over 450miles of the 600 were all highway miles (some with datalogging) with no signs of any extreme/out of place values in the data tables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by strat61caster (Post 1396669) Sounds like the dealer gave you a verbal agreement to look into it providing you took the turbo off and returned it to factory, they realized they made a mistake, the turbo was likely the cause of the failure but since they have no evidence of a turbo other than your word they have to find some fault with the car to blame you for tinkering hoping you'll back down.

Thanks for adding. I agree but I’m also playing a different perspective than trying to hide the fact I had a turbo. This could ultimately cost me to pay for all the issues in the end but I am also shedding light on the fact that I’ve been a loyal customer to Toyota for years, bought many of their vehicles, and am very active in bring customers to their cause. Normal consumers and dealerships won’t care about that response but if you ask any regional manager or people in corporate that is more important to them than a modification with known issues. I believe this will take a lot of work and time but the outcome might actually end with both parties happy. Just need to give it time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by N1rve (Post 1397411) VVT Cover!? You mean the valve cover? I don't think you can actually bolt that backwards.....

Hmm, I’d be curious to look more into that “black box” you speak of. I’m sure that many of the big businesses that modify cars would be aware of this yet they don’t speak of it. You are the only person to bring this up. Yes the ECU does record information but just like any computer chip it can be wiped. You can also make it so the data is non-recoverable.

But back to the VVT cover, I didn’t think you could put the cover on backwards either. Usually they only bolt on one-way. Also, from what the TSB’s show I thought the timing was adjusted mechanically (with tools) on the engine and no through the ECU. If that was the fix then Toyota wouldn’t be adjusting the timing with tools and would just flash the ECU to create a fix. Heck each dealership should be flashing all their cars on the lot to make sure they don’t have these issues…but the fix isn’t that simple. Thanks again for the input.

Lots of posts here to condemn Shiro. Who cares why/what/who/when he took the car to the dealer. He never asked if he could still use his warranty. He never said he is trying to get away with any wrongdoing. He is being honest with the dealer, dealer decides if they want to help, its that simple.

@shiro, I applaud you for keeping calm and not feeding a single troll.

This is the classic 21st Century human attitude, we are all entitled to be assh0les, we are all entitled to judge everyone and give zero f*cks... Jesus....

Was it that hard to just answer his question and move on?

VVT can be adjusted by the tuner and it is adjusted electronically. Now, if they can adjust it far enough that it can cause damage to engine components I DOUBT it.

Also, it is very probable the failure has to do with the AVCS system not working properly from before you installed the turbo, but it will be extremely hard to prove and the dealer will most probably blame the turbo and be done with it.

Well, I just wanted to know his intent hence my original question. Pretty sure you know by now that I am always asking questions to get the right context/info as I know there will always be people out there that know more than I do.
You've pretty confirmed it as well as his replies that he didn't really know what he was asking.

In any case to sum it up, he is going for the AVCS being a factory defect to get a new engine.
He thinks he has a case but still hasn't actually said anything other than he visited the dealer prior to this.
It didn't need 2 pages to just get this across in the first place.

I know you and I know you didn't mean to crucify him. :cheers:

Can I ask why you would even risk putting a turbo on the car if you had taken it to the dealer multiple times prior for engine issues and they never fully resolved them?

The reality is they'll blame it on the turbo regardless of whether or not the problem existed before or after the turbo got installed. Keep up the spirit and let us know how it goes.

What is Not Covered:

Damage or Malfunction Due to Improper Repair or Unauthorized Parts

These warranties do not cover any part which malfunctions, fails or is damaged due to any unauthorized alteration or modification made to the vehicle such as the removal of parts or the installation of parts, equipment or accessories or improper repairs or adjustments not approved or recommended by SOA.

https://www.subaru.com/my-subaru/warranties-2013.html

Welcome to the internet? There's a lot of hate on this forum (like any other forum) and people are quick to jump on someone.

I am following this thread just to see how this turns up and to learn how other companies deal with tricky warranty claims.

I do warranty investigation work for a living and it is unfortunately going to be burden of proof on end-user to prove that the system wasn't tuned to the current point and unless there are software signatures that can prove this, it is likely going to be denied.

At that point, it will be purely goodwill for them to do anything but it sounds like the OP is being reasonable. If I were on the other side of the desk, I wouldn't have a hard time about that - what I would have a hard time with though, is trying to get a service dealer to work on a car that is heavily modified.

Keep us posted OP!

I completely understand and agree with you. BUT, that does not make it right nor it means I should keep quiet and move along if I see it.

Enough of my :threadjacked: keep us updated Shiro.

Google "Black Box" It's already been installed on many cars, but it's going to be standard on all cars in 2015.

There was someone here with a blown engine as well. They pulled data from the black box and it said he reved his car to 8500 RPM. Fixed it on "good faith" apparently.

Toyota has been flashing ECUs for the RPM Dip if I can recall correctly....

But I'm like pretty sure the VVT-i is controlled by the ECU. I used to work at a Toyota Dealership, so my knowledge is like....grainy. Just trying to help you out as much as I can.

Was it a loud "clack...clack...clack" type noise?

It's not impossible. I know Ota Gunma is struggling to keep up with demand for these cars, mistakes can happen when the factory is rushed.

So the dealer is stating that the timing chain cover is put on backwards (ie left side is facing right side) and that your tuner manually set the timing either advanced or retarded by physically moving the chain one or two links left or right.

Having viewed many field service reports that's how I read it with the limited information you've provided.

That was my thought as well, which is why I said it doesn't make sense. The timing chain cover is one piece, it can only be installed one way.

Maybe the dealer wrote up some BS to get themselves out of it, but this could've been solved a long time ago.

I highlighted the most important part, but let me just sum it up (and correct me if I'm wrong):

• You had issues with the car
• Dealer did not document issues (according to you)
• You turbocharged your car thinking issues would go away
• You've had to remove the turbocharger to solve your initial issues that were never fixed.
• Dealer is now giving you BS to get out of this on their end.

I am definitely not a fan of the dealer, especially ones that won't listen to reason. But... why were your issues not addressed PRIOR to you modding the engine? The mere fact that they were present was a huge red flag to me.

I love modding cars as much as the next guy, but I'm not made of money (and neither are you), and issues like this just makes the car a lot more expensive to maintain over the long run (both in terms of dollars and time), and (more importantly) the manufacturer will log this in their file as another "modified car that has caused warranty issues" case, and it doesn't do the community any good.

I am not going to chime in on the actual discrepancy between what the service department claims vs what is reality (others have already said it), but this needs to be noted for future reference.

Car has problem with engine, DON'T GO MODIFYING IT AFTERWARDS.

-alex

P.S. I'm well aware of what the question is. However, the actual TSB in question, what the service department wrote up, and a bunch of other info is still missing. It's just a bunch of armchair mechanics trying to remotely diagnose an issue...

@shiro

What issues did you have before putting the turbo on?

Thanks for calling it as it is. I appreciate it. And I was unaware the VVT could be adjusted by the tuner electronically. The good news is my tuner had not adjusted the VVT or the timing chain.

This is my main concern. Say I replace the engine and keep the car stock. Since the VVT is adjusted through electronic means like the ECU and those variables remained unchanged from factory then I still have a chance of repeating the same incident. That would really be a bummer. That's why I would like Toyota to help me diagnose these issues. I've already been told by corporate that even if they find the vehicle out of warranty they can "review of possible partial assistance which is provided in a form of a reimbursement." :) Either way, I'm on the right track.

Thanks again!!

Good question; honestly, I did not know the depths of the issue nor was I aware the engine issues where that serious. I moved a little quick putting on the turbo in under 6 months so I honestly should have waited longer before moding.

Thanks for the source and quote details. It will be an interesting set of events. The win will be determined by how well the case is formed and how far I'm willing to go. Luckily for me I'm an analyst and have been for many years. So producing metrics, reports and compiling data is what I do best. I will be sure to let you all know on any further updates. =D

My apologies; you were right. As of 2013, 96% of all new cars have an Event Data Recorder (EDR) installed. I went further and did some research into the EDR system and it's kind of interesting. This is the information I found:

Is it installed on the 2013 FR-S: YES
Source: http://www.rimkus.com/uploads/pdfs/E...a_Recorder.pdf

What it records (Consumer Reports):
• The forward and lateral crash force
• The crash event duration
• Indicated vehicle speed
• Accelerator position
• Engine rpm
• Brake application and antilock brake activation
• Steering wheel angle
• Stability control engagement
• Vehicle roll angle, in case of a rollover
• Number of times the vehicle has been started
• Driver and front-passenger safety belt engagement, and pretensioner or force limiter engagement
• Air bag deployment, speed, and faults for all air bags
• Front seat positions
• Occupant size
• Number of crashes (one or more impacts during the final crash event)
Source: http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...ders/index.htm

Privacy Act and Personal concerns: The data on the EDR is personal/private property of the vehicle's owner. In some instances, court warrants need to be issues to access it's data if approval is not granted by the owner. Also, dealerships usually do not have the tools or software to access it's data since it does not use the OBD port.

Extra sources:
http://www.edmunds.com/car-technolog...rash-data.html

Actually, I have a video of the moment before my car died. I will post it for you to hear the sound.

One-week prior with extremely rough idle. Camera is resting on the steering wheel.
[ame]http://youtu.be/ZqdeY7N-2tE[/ame]


A few seconds before the FA20 engine ciezed up. No CEL or ECU logs.
[ame]http://youtu.be/hclghrAgZPI[/ame]

Thanks for adding to my main questions!!! Yes, that is exactly what I meant. I'm not fully aware of how to adjust the timing chain or its cover but that is what I was trying to get at. Basically, the dealership is claiming that my tuner messed around with the timing chain. I plan on trying to get pictures like others have recommended in this post. I find it hard to believe that it was messed with.

Lol, thanks. I got a small laugh out of your down to earth realistic statement, "DON"T GO MODIFYING IT AFTERWARDS."

You are right, I did modify it after I should not have. However, at that time I was pretty ignorant of the issues of this car. After bringing the car into the dealership a couple times and being told the issues were normal I chalked it up to being the high compression and engine design. Ohhhh, the mistake I made. Honestly, there's more to this problem than I am aware of. I'm putting facts and sources together as I go to build a valid assessment of what happened. Great input tho.

Mainly the chirping noise, the CEL coming on and going off, car stalled a couple of time in the rain, etc. I brought the car in and asked about the CEL. The dealership said since it isn't staying on there was no concern. They never hooked up an OBD reader to the car… Plus they said the chirping noise was a normal pump noise and part of the high compression engine design. LOL…

Tough battle, may be best to just call full blown for a shortblock at this point. Im putting my pennies and tax return away for that.

Good luck with the fight

I am not quite sure how these are related to your issue.
Unless you are thinking that your fuel pump died?

As for the CEL, if it wasn't there when you brought it into the dealer nor can it be reproduced whilst in their possession, you'd had to try and catch it on your own then bring it to their attention.

Stalling, no idea, how did it stall? was it the rpm dropping issue? what temperature? what were you doing at the time? did you have the CEL?

The chirping fuel pump is not related at all. It's just the way that batch was designed, to my knowledge. The CEL and stalling would be more connected to my current issue. Stalling only happened when I was driving the car and would take a corner really fast and tight on a rainy day and the back end would break loose. Traction and stability control were off. I believe it would offset a sensor or the engine did a misfire when I tried to accelerate in a turn. Car temp usually runs about 190-210 degrees (outside temp during this time was about 60-80). The only times I had my CEL come on was when my car did not seem to have any issues but when the issues occurred the CEL would never come one. Some of the rough idle times I had my CEL come on and that's because the engine was shaking so bad the knock sensors were going off. The dealership could not replicate. Bummer for me.