Newbie Manual Driving Help Needed
 

This is my first car with a manual transmission and I've been driving it everyday for almost a month now. I've been researching on various websites and practicing various techniques, but I have some questions (and comments) which are specific to this car and I feel you guys could best help answer them (I'm still new at this, so I hope this makes sense.):

I still feel like I am starting way too slow from a stop light or a stop sign. The first couple of seconds, I'm moving like a turtle and then suddenly I'm accelerating quickly, but those first seconds are too slow. I'm not asking this because I want to race someone, but because of something much more important. In locations where I have to turn into a lane with a lot of fast-moving traffic, I am waiting for quite some time for a wide opening before pulling into said traffic (something I didn't have to do with an automatic), because I am too slow at launch and don't want to get rear-ended. How high can I rev the engine before engaging first gear to ensure a smooth, but faster launch with this car?

Also, does going in reverse feel too sensitive to anyone else? It's the only gear in which I'm still either stalling or suddenly flying in reverse. I actually scuffed up the bottom (underbar?) part of my car on a curb from trying to reverse while on a incline. ...I've avoided parallel parking on an incline going downhill for this very reason...but it would be nice if I could master this as well.

Thanks.

just rev to 2000 and release the clutch pedal a little faster, sounds like you are riding the clutch

or 4000 and slip the clutch, that will get you going in a hurry :)

It does take some time getting used to. This car was my first manual car as well, and I've gotten really good at it over the last 5 months (well 5 months minus 1 day lol).
What I suggest is finding an empty parking lot, or just your street that's not too busy and try accelerating quickly and experiment with different RPM's from a stand still.
My guess is you're currently fully engaging the clutch at around 1500 RPM's and it takes the car until about 3000 RPM's before it really starts to get going. I suggest maybe starting the car at about 2000 RPM's instead so you have a less of a gap to 3000 when it actually starts to get into the power.
Monitor those RPMs as you're starting to move and try not to let them fall below 2000. I wouldn't suggesting revving up to 4000 and dropping the clutch to get a launch every time lol, even though that is fun too.
As far as the reverse gear is, you are right. It's the only gear I've stalled in recently (about a month ago was my last stall). The only thing you can do though is to modulate the gas at the same time so you don't stall, and reverse slowly. It's not particularly a good thing, but usually reversing is a slow manoeuvre and generally there's nothing you can do but ride the clutch a little bit. Don't let go of the clutch fully in reverse, I've never done this and I only partially engage with a little bit of gas whenever it's about to stall. The other thing you can do is just push in the clutch a little more whenever it's getting close to stalling.

Well, back in the day, first and reverse were usually the same sized gear ... not sure about the FR-S.

Your launch technique will come with practice. Meanwhile I suggest you slip the clutch a bit on starting out in both first and reverse. No, it's not going to burn up your clutch unless you over do it.

With an engine that has relatively low torque and a relatively light flywheel, sometimes they need a bit of RPMs to get them moving.....;)

I know that when I back out of my steep driveway (uphill), I have to ease over the apex (at an angle) where the driveway meets the sidewalk (so I don't scrape) and (of course) the blind spot is just where the traffic could be coming from. So, I have to slip the clutch quite a bit to get out. Been doing it for about 9 months now ... clutch has held up just fine ....:popcorn:

And yes, I've been driving clutched vehicles for over 65 years now and never burnt up a clutch. http://www.runemasterstudios.com/gra...stickdance.gif

humfrz

Get some training from an experienced manual trans driver. There are a lot of nuances to driving a stick that are not obvious. You also need to just ride along and observe. It sounds like you need some work on your clutch friction control too. It will come with practice.

We motorcyclist call learning proper clutch manipulation "the friction zone." it takes practice. If you can't shift and "rocket" in 1st gear then you're in trouble!!

Find an incline...NOT a hill! Learn to sit in stasis while heading up the incline but not moving up or rolling back. You can pull the e-brake if you mess it up! Option (2. Is drive up an incline, engage the e-brake and break pedal. Now apply the clutch and throttle while disengaging the e-brake. You're set! Once you've mastered this you should be ready! God speed!

Just takes time to learn, I can start off like a turtle or a hare. Whichever I choose.

Thanks for all of the feedback! I'm visiting a friend this weekend who's been driving manuals for 15+ years, so I'll get some actual feedback and observe how he drives as well.

I'm going to try that revving up to 4K and slipping the clutch, too (around little or no traffic, obviously). Sounds like fun... :)

You'll get used to it. I think right now you're thinking too much about it. You're thinking about how much to rev and when to let off the clutch. Practice driving smoothly and learn where the engagement point of the clutch is. Once you get used to it, you won't even think about it. It'll all come natural to you.

I've driven many different manuals before but this is the first one I've actually owned for myself and have gotten to drive everyday. I will give you this, the launch or "catch" point for the FR-S is a lot further back then most manuals, and that was what gave me the most trouble in the beginning.

I still have problems reversing and sometimes I feel like I'm riding my clutch, but only in reverse. I feel like if I full disengage the clutch I shoot off in reverse, does anybody else feel this?

I started driving manual in august of last year after driving auto for 6 years. So I know exactly the issues you're having.

So the first thing you need to do if you haven't is understand the throttle control. It's very awkward with this car esp during break in period. Sometimes the throttle responds perfectly, other times it doesn't. Sometimes I prefer driving my corolla because the throttle response is way more predictable.

Get a general feel for how much throttle you need to apply to keep the RPMs between 2k-2.5k. Remember that.

When you launch from a stop, immediately put your foot on the gas and apply that same amount of pressure. Slowly let go of the clutch, slow enough that you can feel the point where the clutch catches the engine the most (aka "friction point") and you really start going.

Once you get the hang of those two steps, you can immediately launch from a stop light like you're driving an auto. Hit the gas with that same pressure, immediately let go of the clutch to the friction point. Once the car starts rolling, let go of the clutch all the way. When starting on steeper hills, you can feel free to rev up to 3-3.5k.

In general, reverse gear is much shorter than 1st gear, so you will get tons of power. I generally never release the clutch all the way when I'm going in reverse, unless the incline is so steep I really need the power. If it's a slight incline, I'll modulate the clutch to control my speed. Otherwise I'll give some gas with the clutch at or near the friction point. You'll have to get the feel for it obviously.

On small engined cars at least, reverse has always been the lowest gear in the transmission. This is because you don't want to drive quickly in reverse.

These cars suffer from three faults that make learning to drive a manual version tricky: the clutch bite point (friction zone) is too high up in the pedal travel, the clutch pedal height is too high off the floor (half an inch or more higher than the brake pedal which is just weird) and the tip in or initial throttle travel is unnecessarily rapid.

The first two issues can be corrected by adjusting the pedal height and bite point about one half inch closer to the floor of the car.

The throttle travel issue cannot be fixed unless Subaru releases a software update for the electronic throttle which isn't going to happen.

North Americans like aggressive throttle tip in. It makes a car feel more powerful than it really is. Almost all American built cars suffer from this fault. Many imports also do in order to satisfy this market demand. It's weird but that's just the way it is.

Most experienced manual transmission drivers stall this car repeatedly until they get used to these faults. I had my dealership adjust the clutch pedal and it is better. However, it is still absurdly easy to stall this car, even for an expert.

It's always going to be tough since Auto can just let you lazily transition from break to gas quickly and effortlessly. When I started out, being more aware of the traffic and when the light will change - pre-empt your gate shift to first, kick in the clutch, and remove break last (slightly before light change) and feather the gas. Key is to find the sweet spot as you release the clutch where you can release immediately at the same time as adding considerably more gas without additional slip/rocking the transmission.

It sounds like a lot of people slip the clutch a pretty considerable amount when taking off quicker than normal. I would suggest not focusing on exactly how you are applying the clutch, but to focus more on the accelerator and to let the clutch out smoothly and consistently (at a constant rate). You may stall it a few times learning this, but once you get used to using the accelerator to keep the car from stalling as you engage the clutch, you can then control how fast you take off by how fast you let out the clutch. The sooner the clutch is fully engaged, the quicker you have taken off and can apply more accelerator. :burnrubber:

I always feel like the first 0-10% of the pedal travel feels dead. Then 10-20% feels like you're at 80% of full throttle. It's strange.

For those of you who do not like the clutch engagement point and have not already adjusted the pedal, check out this thread: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8040

No worries you'll get it; most new things take a little getting used to but before long it's hard to imagine that you haven't been doing whatever for ever. ;-)

This was my first manual as well, and the exercise that helped me the most was driving around a parking lot without the gas pedal.

Slowly let off the clutch until the idle power gets the car moving. I did this for about an hour the first day I got it. After that, you have the clutch control in muscle memory, and all you have to do is add the gas.

Getting going from a stop, I let off the clutch until it's just about to hit that bite point and then I jump off the brake onto the gas. Stops from rolling backwards on hills too.

I drove German and Japanese manuals for the first 13yrs I was driving, then went to an auto for ~14yrs, then to the 6MT FR-S.

It did take a little getting used to again. I have stalled it a few times when not paying attention.

A few things I do or have noticed:

1. Things will break in and loosen up a bit with some miles on the clutch/tranny. Mine at 11K feels much easier to start from a stop and go up hills from a stop than when new.
2. The electronic throttle is a bit weird as it sometimes feels like it doesn't get the go into the motor right away. This still catches me off guard a tiny bit from time to time.
3. In reverse out of my inclined driveway, I let the clutch out briefly to get the car enough speed to back out and then put the clutch back in and roll back from there. If I need a little more oomph, I can do the same thing again.
4. There is no need to rev it up to 2K and beyond to start out unless you want to. On flat ground at a dead stop, I can take off without revving above idle until the gear starts to engage and car is moving.

In terms of standstill starts this car is quite tricky because the engagement is point is really high. I know in my old RSX once I inched the clutch pedal off the clutch is already engaging and the car is moving. The key for this car at least for me to get smooth and relatively fast starts is to let off the clutch pedal by half an inch first and then rev it to 2,000 all in a smooth manner. In terms of revving it higher for a faster launch you just have to remember that most of the time it never be smooth, thats just the way it is.

In terms of reverse gear, yes when you release the clutch with a little gas it will zoom in to reverse. That was one of the more surprising aspects about the transmission when I bought this car. Do the seesaw action with clutch and gas for a smoother reverse.

I feel that this car is quite tricky to learn for first time manual drivers so dont fret it takes time to get used to. I drove manual for 6 years before this one and it took me like 2 months to really get comfortable though Im still struggling to get smoother 1st to 2nd gear shifts.

Hang in there young grasshopper… In time it will feel second nature, and you will never doubt picking the manual.

I think I've only gotten off the clutch completely in reverse twice in the five months I've owned the car. As long as you don't rev like crazy I don't see it hurting the clutch much (unless you are backing up for a long distance for whatever reason). It goes too fast to safely pull into (or out of) parking spots fully disengaged.

The clutch on this car is definitely not the easiest to handle.
But I've found the key is your clutch work - as long as you commit the clutch engagement point to muscle memory, you should be able to start quickly.

I'm not a fan of revving the engine up over 2,000rpm to get the car going - to me, that seems like excessive/slip wear for the clutch, and if you can get the engagement point, you shouldn't need it.

I briefly considered purchasing an electronic throttle controller that would sharpen the DBW (i.e. the Apexi unit).
Anyone have thoughts on those?
How about lightweight crank pulleys (which should sharpen response as well)?

This is my first manual DBW car, and that was a big difference (previous cars were much more linear in how the throttle and clutch behaved)

Drive more.

Seriously, that's the best way to do it.

Go find a park without a lot of kids in it, especially this time of year in the states it's too cold so that should be easy. The roads are <15 MPH and usually easy/no hills.

You want to find your grab point. this is when the clutch plates come back together. you just have to practice getting up to and engaging, and then get off it in a smooth motion. Come to a stop, do it again.

2K RPM seems high to me saw that said a couple times, but I don't drive the FR-S that much at the moment as I don't have one. You can also find your sweet spot with practice.

That's why these cars are fun in my view. You 'feel' your way through things. Revving the motor slightly, releasing the clutch slowly, grabbing and letting it engage.

You don't want to be at the 'clutch halfway in/out' point more than a second or two, longer you're burning and slower you're gonna get whiplash with the surging that happens.

You can ride with someone telling you what to do, I guess it depends on how you learn to me it wasn't all that helpful, you just feel your way through things.

First read through looked like "Go find a park with a lot of kids in it"

Lol.

Hey man, I'm in the same boat as you. I picked my car up around mid October, and I'm still getting used to it. Granted, I had very limited experience with manual transmissions, I still recognized how odd the clutch is on this car.

Like others have stated, I found giving it a little more revs, up to around 2k mark makes launching a bit more consistent and smoother. Shifts between 1st and 2nd still feel a little jerky to me, but after riding with a couple friends in their M/T cars, I guess it's just normal.

A bit of a tip, one thing you could try is finding an empty parking lot, and driving around it in reverse. Make sure you're properly looking behind you, not just using the mirrors. Practice stopping and starting, all while in reverse. My dad made me do this to teach me to feel/hear the clutch and the throttle without having the tach to tell me what my RPM was at. It was a huge pain in the ass, but after an hour or so of that, I felt a lot more confident. Plus, it helps with your reversing problems too.

Also, while I haven't doen it yet, I'd definitely look into the clutch adjustment DIY. I want to do it, I just haven't had the motivation to contort my body so I can reach under there. Back problems and all.

Yeah. I've put almost 1600 miles in it now. I'm going on a road trip next week from Virginia to Missouri, and then from Missouri to Minnesota and then back to Missouri and ultimately back to Virginia again over a 10-day period, so I'll get a lot of driving practice in. I'm just trying to get at least a decent handle on launch and hill starts before I go.

I'm actually pretty good at hill starts, with and without the e-brake (except the reverse issue that I mentioned earlier), but I'm still nervous as hell each time I have to do so when I'm around a lot of traffic.

Clutch friction control is definitely a challenge in first gear. Just today, I went through a spot-free car wash and when it was time for me to drive through the automatic dryer, which stays on for about 60 seconds, I went right through it in about 3... Learn as I go, I guess...lol

Wait... you mean to tell me that you don't scrub and polish every inch of your car with your own personal handkerchief?

Haha, just kidding. But I'm terrified of any sort of automated car wash. Last time I took a car through one, turns out one of the brushes had some shit stuck to one of the bristle things, and it scratched the hell out of the roof. Lesson learned, no car I own will ever be washed except by my hands.

Leave your facial hair to grow into a dirty moustache.
Wear trench coat and sunglasses.

Bring candy...



You know, in case you get hungry.

yes, before i ended up selling my manual civic i took her for a few last drives and i thought there was something wrong with the clutch of the civic for the first bit before my brain got back into the clutch on that car

i was lagging and half stalling like crazy and couldn't figure out why

I had trouble when I first got my BRZ. It had been about 5 years since I drove a manual but it's something you don't forget to do. You just have to learn the car.

I took mine to an open parking lot real late at night and just stopped and and took off repeatedly. Also a good way to get used to the size of the car and parking it too.

A lot of things have been said, and what I agree on the two things:

1. find a flat parking lot with less or no traffic. Practice starting forward or backward using clutch and clutch only. No gas, no brake. This is to help you find the grabbing/friction/engagement point on the car. People complains about this point is high on FRS/BRZ. IMHO, many manual cars have this point set at high (last 1/4 of clutch travel) anyway.

2. No need to rev to X RPM *before* you release the clutch, except when you are learning to hill-start. Any revving *prior* to release the clutch to the grabbing point is just riding the clutch and cause premature wear. The steps to start should be (IMO):

On a flat ground: brake in, clutch in, shift to 1st gear, release brake, release clutch to grab point to get car moving a bit, release more to let the clutch grab the transmission, add gas gradually to speed up.

On a uphill start: brake in, clutch in, shift to 1st gear, hold brake, release clutch to grab point, release clutch a bit more to fully engage the transmission *and* release the brake and move to gas pedal at the same time, before the car starts to stall, add gas a bit more to speed up.

On a downhill start: brake in, clutch in, shift to 1st gear, hold brake, release clutch to grab point, release clutch a bit more to fully engage the transmission *and* release the brake and move to gas pedal at the same time, the car will move forward, add gas a bit more to speed up.

So, as you can see, if you want to start faster, you have to do all of these steps faster but in the correct sequence. Without knowing the grabbing point or correct sequence, you are just riding the clutch and hope for the best.

Some other points that people may have missed:

1. when you just start up the car, the idle RPM may be higher than that when it is fully warm up. So imagine during the cold idle RPM when you release the clutch to the grab point, it is as if you rev it already beyond the warm-up idle RPM, and thus you should feel more power pushing forward or backward. Therefore, when you just start up the car and get moving, keep this in mind and do not fully release the clutch and be ready to clutch in and brake in case the car moves too far than you desire.

I do the same trick while backing out to my driveway going downhill. Just release the clutch and brake a bit to get the car moving and clutch in to stay steady and brake if I need to. The initial momentum and the downhill will drag me out of the garage very easily.

2. you have full control of driving a manual car. So you need to beware of the change of grade, and use that to your advantage. If you are on a uphill but you need to reverse, do you need to use the reverse gear? Not really, just clutch in and release the brake a bit to slowly slide down. No need to put into reverse. The reverse is also true. If you are on a down hill going forward, you do not need to use the 1st gear if you just need to move a bit during parking exercise. Clutch in and slide is all you need.

Just make sure to keep the foot on brake when you are sliding. You never know when you need to stop for whatever reason.

Hope this helps.

just hang in there and drive, drive more and more everyday. try not to think of it as practice. one you learn the basic then you can move on to the more advance more like heel and toe, double clutch downshift and rev match and much more.

heel toe downshifting is probably the hardest thing to do and something i still have yet to master.. i don't race so i've never any need for it, but i imagine i'll eventually start doing it

but if the OP eventually plans on getting into racing then it's a definite must to learn down the road

i've successfully done it a few times but it is too awkward for me to do on a regular basis and i don't find it comfortable or natural at all as i generally end up braking too hard or not enough

one day maybe... one day

Like the OP, this is a my first manual car. I have had experience driving frd's manual corolla, fits and what not but never as a day to day car.

In been a bit more than a month and i have 2100km on the car. It does get better and easier the more you drive, and i've notice its much easier to drive this car smoothly in higher rev than in lower rev.

I do feel that i'm still slipping the clutch too much when i start. I find that its the easiest to start smoothly if i'm gently revving it and than slowly letting out the clutch instead of the proper way that was posted above: release clutch to engagement point let off brake than add gas.

I will work on that though. I barely stall now, the only time when I still come close to stalling now is while in the parking lot cruising really slow in 1st gear or while parking backwards. I can't shake the feeling that if i do not give a little gas before i start releasing the clutch it will stall

To sum up, it is not hard to drive a manual car fast. Once you pass the 1st and 2nd gears, the up shifting is better and smooth because the speed difference between the flywheel and input shaft is less and thus smooth shift.

It is, however, hard to drive a manual car *slowly*: i.e. stop-n-go traffic, parking lot cruising and backing or parking. To get the car go like it is an automatic in these situation requires proper control on the clutch, and not necessary on the gas. In these situations, clutch footwork is more important than gas footwork. Once you master the clutch control to move the car *without* gas, you have graduated to a new level of manual car driving.

Lastly, let me quote Sir Jackie Stewart in one of the Top Gear episode when he was teaching James May about race car control: don't press the gas pedal unless you know you will not lift off later.

I'm getting better at using the clutch at low speed instead of mashing on the gas releasing clutch. Someone told me its bad to use the clutch like this, but than it is also bad to slip the clutch ?

the first few days i had the car i was constantly driving in stop and go traffic and incline, I may very well have burn my clutch with my shoddy clutch work . My frd drove my car today and he said he feels like my clutch is slipping a little, i never get to the point when I smell the clutch though how much damage did i do?