Drift-Office : KraftWerks Supercharger Kit ... TUNED!
 

So most of you know that we had what is now apparently coined the "SC Twins" here over this last week, and @digital_assassin was nice enough to drive all the way up from Oregon to get his car tuned here @ Drift-Office.

We didn't do the install but here are some pics of the kit - and more pics can be viewed in this thread that he started for KWSC users.

Attachment 60079

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I don't think I need to regurgitate any more information that you don't already know so here's the Readers' Digest version :

2013 FRS / 6MT Transmission
KraftWerks Supercharger Kit w/ 10 PSI Pulley
STOCK OEM Injectors
STOCK OEM Fuel Pump
OMNI 3 Bar Map Sensor
Drift-Office Custom ECUTEK SPEED DENSITY Calibration
Nameless 2.5 Inch Overpipe, Catted Front Pipe & Axle Back Exhaust

As with the JRSC kit, we opted to also go with a Speed Density (SD) calibration and the kit worked flawlessly when we had it on the dyno.

Here's the DYNO RESULTS!

Attachment 60087

Here's the YouTube Video!

[ame]http://youtu.be/PJrilzQRCto[/ame]



Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Maybe I missed it but what fuel was this on? Pump?

I'm very impressed with the numbers of this kit and JRSC...

Nice work! car sounds great...

All tunes from drift office are on pump has.

Nice basically same numbers as the JR one more or less, which is expected I suppose. Curious "audibly" was the KW one louder given additional belt drive system?

Did You prefer layout or feel of one over the other Bob?

OICU-
1) though the system isn't loud, KW will be coming out with toothed idler and tensioner gears which should further quiet it down.
2) looking at the JR and KW graphs, i am guessing the JR equipped car had a header (eg the top end pulls 500rpm higher and boost pressures are lower). It would be nice to see the Digital Assassins car dyno'd with a header installed.
3) the upgrading to the C38 charger on the KW is a simple bolt-on. JR will require major redesign

Well this one gets my money. Time to start saving.

sent from my locker... help!

Awesome numbers!!! I have pretty much the same exhaust setup than digital_assassin but will have a Revworks UEL headers install. I'm pretty much sure that I will get tune on a MAHA dyno wich read pretty low... It won't be a good comparaison but must give an idea.

I'd love to see what the two kit's dynos would look like if they were overlaid on top of each other. But after taking a look at the two, I doubt there would be a discernible difference, other then the slight difference at the top end due to the header with the JR kit.

Thanks a ton to everyone that made this direct comparison possible.

That tourqe

I would really love to see this. As I have been and will continue using a maha. I was running 11.5psi as well at 360whp on stock exhaust but on e85.

Any chance we can see a comparable or close to comparable vortech overlay? I am quite curious to how the spool at mid rpm and mid rpm tq compares!!

Thanks Bob & Bill @Drift-Office for the stellar job on the tune! Great job @KraftWerks & @gmsii on the kit! The quality and fit of the parts is top notch! The car is now FAST! I'm back home and had fun the entire 150 miles! I'm going to need to look into a clutch soon, so much torque!

Yes those are exclamation points on each sentence. It's that good.

Probably the biggest difference between the two kits is noise. KW kit has noticeable whine whereas the JR does not. I like having some sound so the KW was the right choice for me but just a little quieter would be good so I'll look forward to some revised bits. Hopefully the boys @KraftWerks will take care of those that have the kit already :). The recirc/BOV is another nice touch in the KW. You only hear it when coming off heavy load and it's not obnoxious at all.

Thanks again Bob & Bill. Your many hours spent creating a proper SD tune specific to my vehicle was definitely noticed in the drivability. 1st and 2nd gear shifting is buttery smooth.

Glad you LOVE it Kevin! I hear ya on those exclamation marks haha.

is there a specific reason you used speed density to tune?

Sounds pretty damn good. Is your clutch having slippage now or you just feel it's going to soon given the TQ you feel? Hopefully KWs revised toothed idlers quiet it down please keep us posted on that and with your thoughts as time goes on. I want to select a FI system after New Years and the JR & KW kits are my two top. Both have something I like but yet small things I do not.

Yes, both kits are identical in terms of resulting performance, and they both have different approaches / strategies in getting there. Internally, we were having about both kits and if it comes down to all things being equal (kit install / tuner / fuel) - then it would be PURELY a decision made based on preference. Kit styling / CARB certification / Sleeper vs SC Noise / Intercooler Size & Colors.

I'll have more on this in days to come. DO is officially closed for the rest of the year and I'll be in and out of connectivity...

My bad! I procured the same 92 Octane fuel used in the KWSC and JRSC tunes to make sure one didn't have a more significant advantage than the next. :)

I'll post it at a later date as a reference, simply because it's not really an apples-to-apples comparo.

That would make for an interesting 3-Way shootout. :)

Check out the original thread where I posted the numbers on the JRSC kit.

Start here : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showt...t=52992&page=3

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

It's wet and cold so I'm not 100% on what I'm feeling and the Michelin PSSS don't make much noise when spinning when it's cold since they are summer tires. In the daylight tomorrow I'll do some more driving and checking things out but weather is calling for more rain... PNW problems.

It's been bugging me that both kits instructions don't address this. According to Rotrex the Oil Reservoir should be lower than the Rotrex. The KW kit location can be worked to achieve the proper positioning with a little work. Had to bend the bracket a bit and then bend the tab holding the molex plug out of the way. I don't know if this is an issue or not but I changed mine up just to be safe.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/...pso7bwiyl6.jpg

Look by the battery and you can see how high it was.
http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/...psmkbc9say.jpg

So I lowered it waaaayyy down.

http://i1144.photobucket.com/albums/...pshixsgozf.jpg

I'm interested to see if it is in this position that maybe it will actually flow oil. I can't start the car tonight since the kids and neighbors are asleep :)

Digital Assassin...the oil reservoir in the original KW location is fine...Rotrex is concerned that too high of position will cause the front seal to leak due to high static hydraulic pressure; their generalized instruction to mount the reservoir lower than the charger guarantees that the seal will not see high enough static hydraulic pressures to cause leakage. The reservoir even or slightly higher than the charger with the line running lower (as is the case with the KW kit) is fine.

Ok. Well it was an easy adjustment with your kit @gmsii so no worries either way. Is it right that when looking into the canister with the car running that you will not see oil flowing?

DA-
1) if there are any 'revised bits' KW will certainly make them available to the early adopters at no charge.
2) actually the sound is one difference, but i think the main difference is 1) you can easily upgrade the KW to run a C38 if so desired, 2) if the KW sc drive belt brakes, you can still drive your car home

Thanks Bob for your testing...for the benefit of the community, I would like to elaborate a bit on a few of your points

1) Both kits seem identical in performance in their base trim, however the KW systems has a clear upgrade path to the next sized C38 charger. JR kit will require major re-design
2) More so than styling, is the function. In the case of the KW kit, the independent belt drive, off set blower placement, and cold air intake were matters of functional design rather than styling. I am curious to see what the difference is in intake air temps on the dyno and then also at the track.
3) As power goes up, we believe the KW will begin to stretch its legs. From our experience from the design of other kits, KW believes there is much to be gained from the use of 2.5" vs 2" tubing on the compressor hot side, and also an advantage in using an 11 row intercooler vs 8 row.
4) the KW kit is CARB pending...there is no reason it should not pass. CARB approval is purely just a matter of time.

Any chance you could make it a 5 way overlay with an Innovate and an AVO run aswell? I know it wouldn't be apples to apples, but having the same tuner and dyno takes out a lot of variables.

Thanks so much for being so helpful to our community.

I think a graph like that would be open to too many interpretations....it's all the varying supporting mods that make it hard to correlate the results

That's very true. But, DO has tuned a lot of these kits, and my hope is that they could show cars with similar baselines and mods. It might be a bite of a pipe dream on my part, but it couldn't hurt to ask.

The common variable here is that they're all FI @ 10PSI. I've already plotted that chart, and it would make me look rather TURBO centric. :) I'll consider it as part of my 'wrap-up' post for the year...

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Hey Bob. I've never asked if you've tuned any of the other Turbo kits out there for the FA20. There's a few turbo kits out there and I know all the S/C's have been pitted against each other but I don't recall seeing anyone do same dyno different turbo comparo's. Mission for 2014 maybe :)

Oooh...but intake manifolds and exhaust manifolds change boost readings ...so it still may be misinterpreted by the uninitiated

May be... Absolutely will be. :barf:

Ok so clearly my idea isn't getting much traction. I thought that anyone reading this would be aware that the turbo is going to do better. They are more efficient and there's no way to get around that. For me, it's the degree of difference that I'm wondering about. Without getting into the debate of turbo vs. supercharger...again... let me just say that I feel a supercharger setup would fit me better. But everything is a compromise, I'd just really like to know what compromises I'm making.

Any ETA on when the skunk2 Header and oil cooler kit are coming? I want to get the whole package..:thumbup:. Awesome results.

Since nobody else will do it... I will

2013 FRS / 6MT Transmission
Jackson Racing Supercharger Kit w/ 10 PSI Pulley
STOCK OEM Injectors
STOCK OEM Fuel Pump
OMNI 3 Bar Map Sensor
Drift-Office Custom ECUTEK SPEED DENSITY Calibration
HKS Equal Length Header
J2 Motoring Uncatted Front Pipe
Perrin 2.5 Inch Exhaust

vs

2013 FRS / 6MT Transmission
KraftWerks Supercharger Kit w/ 10 PSI Pulley
STOCK OEM Injectors
STOCK OEM Fuel Pump
OMNI 3 Bar Map Sensor
Drift-Office Custom ECUTEK SPEED DENSITY Calibration
Nameless 2.5 Inch Overpipe, Catted Front Pipe & Axle Back Exhaust


***these images are scaled for the hp/torque graph only. The AFR and Boost graphs are NOT TO SCALE***

**I do not have photoshop at work... so I had to crash course myself in GIMP, and there's no free transform, so I did the best I could given what I have for now**


Kraftwerks:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...psbc788740.jpg

Jackson Racing:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...psd0f0bda2.jpg

Combined:
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y75...psddaae001.jpg

Good deal. They both look to be putting out nearly identical numbers. I have to believe that the freer-flowing exhaust in the JR kit led to a more linear output without the odd blip around 4700 in the KW kit.

Can't wait to get mine installed and tuned so I can see whether a UEL header and catless exhaust yields similar results to the JR kit.

Nice. Jump the gun why don't we. :)



Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

I meant people reading the thread, not you guys!

I also probably have more free time to do ghetto overlays, since it seems you guys are quite busy doing real work like tuning client cars :)

Currently closed till the end of the year. :)

Yes, though I would say it isn't as optimal since it's NOT* a one-size-fits all. It runs, it drives and delivers power under boost - and as you've pointed out, not quite the same as an optimized tune for the specific vehicle. :)

I'll let @Jackson Racing chime in on this, but with strict certification standards, I doubt you're allowed to use anything but the calibration that was used in the approval process.

You're right. I'm not a big fan of E-Tunes since there are lots of variables. You don't just plug a few numbers into a tune and expect it to work across the board. If you remember the once revered "Master Tuner" that tuned a single car, then sold and resold that calibration as a "tuned map" to everyone and we all know what happened thereafter...

We've dyno tuned over 54 GT86s since May 1st and I can safely say that no 2 stock cars are 100% alike. Some will take more timing than the next and consequently, some less. I prefer to see the variables thru our process on the dyno, in a controlled environment to prevent any mishaps. The other problem is that street logs are usually used as the data collection process in E-Tunes. None of them are going to be as consistent as doing pulls on a dyno. The more consistent the logs, the more accurate the calibration will be...

Not to pat ourselves on the back but I've been told repeatedly that we're seemingly the only ones that have done as many variations as we have and still have yet to experience any issues stemming from our calibrations. While alot of that comes from experience, a bulk of it is because it's done on a dyno and then street verified.

Indeed. There aren't a whole lot of gains to be had when using the current line of UEL / EL headers in a SC environment. Here's one such other example that I've posted up before to support this : http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47101

Cheers!


Bob @ Drift-Office, LLC

Based on what we've seen dyno testing different configurations....
If DA's car had a free flowing header and no catalytic convertors, it would make significantly more peak power (about +20hp at 7000rpm) with the power coming in linearly from about 4000 rpm, and it would be making about 1psi less boost. Go figure.

Man these threads make me debate whether to bother with a aftermarket header or not! Hmmmm...

^^ That.

And there's only one header in development that is supposed to be made to work with a supercharged motor and I fear that is going to be a blatant 'compromise' between NA and SC.

Bill has posted his preference for the PPE header with the Innovate kit. I'd like to see how that fares with either of these kits.

Thanks Bob for this thread. It's interesting to see all the KW SC kit pics, vid & dyno. DO is one of the shop, I can trust my baby without worrying bout some thing gonna go wrong.

@gmsii, @KraftWerks

guys, maybe you did not see my question or were not willing to post in thread with topic on jackson racing SC risking to be banned by the mods ;) but i think it would be beneficial for folks looking to buy your kit to get more info on canned tune you provide with your SC kit. my original post and reasons for the question is here:
http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...2&postcount=96
and jackson racing were pretty fast to reply.
cheers.