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Buying computer parts compared to suspension parts
The world of car parts, namely suspension technology, progresses so fast and varies in so many different ways that I can't help but compare it to the world of computer parts. After I've built myself a new computer the technology immediately advances and changes for the better within a year (sometimes faster) and I find myself with out of date knowledge super quick if I I'm not continuously reading about it. So when I go to build myself a new machine a few years down the line I have to do a bunch of research again to get my knowledge back up to date.
Another similarity is that a lot of what you buy has to do with your personal preference, what you plan to use the setup for, and what you can afford (i.e. gaming vs media center vs multitasking etc.) just like you see with car suspensions (i.e. daily driving vs tracking vs slamming etc.). The great thing is there are awesome sources to use to get great buying information fast in the computer world. For example, www.tomshardware.com (If you're a computer nerd like me I'm sure you've used this site many times). This website is awesome to quickly learn what fits perfectly for your needs and price range. Similarly, there are amazing sources here on the forums that provide us with expert info on the products we're researching every day (for example, CSG & RCE's Suspension Q&A thread) But the one thing tom's has over these forums is how easily the information is acquired and compiled together for the "nonexperts" or "not up to date" people to use. What they do is release monthly "best ____ for the money" articles and quarterly "best configs" articles which I find to be extremely helpful in my education/buying process. Not only do they give reviews and recommendations on some of the best products available but they give great examples of what products are compatible with others, what products combine to make viable/effective setups, and what products don't work together which is awesome :thumbsup: This info is pretty much what 95% of the questions asked in these forums are anyway, (i.e. what products do you recommend?, what is your experience with said product?, what product will do what I'm looking for and be in my budget? and will this product work with these other products in my suspension setup?). So if all of this info is combined into a monthly article then you could probably avoid answering the same questions repeatedly. The point of this thread is that I think, given the appropriate suspension experts, (like @CSG Mike and @Racecomp Engineering and others) a suspension article similar to these computer articles could be put together on a monthly or quarterly basis for the benefit of the community as a way to gain knowledge and make more educated buying decisions in a very similar fashion. For example, in the "Best Graphics Cards for the Money" threads the article is broken up sort of in this way: 1) New updates/recent releases 2) Then they split up the cards based on price ranges and label as entry-level, mid-range, High-End, etc. 3) For each price range they give their recommendation, usually along with a couple honorable mentions and the technical info for each (GPU type, Clock speeds, memory, exact price, pictures etc). 4) Then they create a simple bar graph showing the hierarchy of all the products they recommended with their prices and provide some insight on which products give the best performance per dollar. This could be done almost the same way or similarly with coilovers for example(This could obviously be done with most other aftermarket car parts as well, I'm just using suspension and coilovers as an example here.): 1) New updates/recent releases, maybe expected upcoming releases 2) Split up the coils based on price ranges and purpose (tracking/DD/slamming/etc.) 3) For each price range/category give your recommendation along with some honorable mentions and technical info for each (spring rates, adjustability, mono or twin tube, exact price, pictures etc.) 4)Simplify this info into a visual and provide some insight in which your best performance per dollar products are out the ones you recommended. I think some of the vendors and experts who are active on these forums would be perfect for putting these together for the gt86/frs/brz community. They have the knowledge and they generally have exposure to most of the recommendable products on the market. They may not have the means or time to accurately measure differences and they may have some biased opinions, but that does not mean that their recommendations are not extremely useful when researching what you want to buy. I think they would certainly be a great starting point for anybody looking to learn some more and get pointed in the right direction. Are there any experts who would be willing to dedicate the time into doing something like this? Like @CSG Mike or @Racecomp Engineering or @FT-86 SpeedFactory or @Moto-P to name a few. And how many of you would also be interested in seeing something like this done? Obviously if I'm the only one then it wouldn't be worth their time to do something like this haha Thanks for reading, hope this made sense! :thanks: |
i dont really think that suspension is much like computer technology at all. maybe in that lower tier coilover game you can get a lot of different things popping up but a lot of the serious stuff is made by a pretty small group of companies. good luck in your search though.
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Two key differences:
- Tech industry media are provided a lot of perks to get their stuff tested. Trust me, I used to sample hardware to media and it was always "I need a new piece of equipment for my test rig, can you overnight it?" "Ok, we'll get a tiny mention!" type of situation. - It's easy to test hardware and gauge performance. It's a hell of a lot harder to come out with a "best of" for suspension parts, mostly because of industry politics. There, I said it. Industry politics. Some of the best tech media out there are pretty much bribed to say good things... and a lot of reviews end up that way because of how many advertisements you buy. Pay to play, it's that simple. I've dealt with politics in both of these industries for a LONG time, and in the end there will never the objective discussion and analysis you seek. Even with computer hardware, you don't truly get that. Oh, and Tom's Hardware? Best of Media makes enough money to afford their editors some really, REALLY good perks(income). Top tier media like these websites bankroll a ton of ad revenue because of the traffic their site gets. -alex |
A for effort
D for content |
Suspension doesn't actually evolve THAT quickly. 1 generation of computer tech takes roughly 18 months (Intel, nVidia), whereas 1 generation of suspension tech generally takes 7-10 years.
Side note: I build my own computers, and also used to do custom computers on the side for some extra cash back in high school. I currently use a 4+ year old box, that I have absolutely no slowdown complaints about, because it is well maintained, and contains carefully selected components (except when I'm rendering video...) "specs" i7-920 GTX260 c216 4x 1.5tb harddrives in Raid 5 system drive + scratch disk 4x 2tb in 0+1 NAS 9gb ram "mods" Thermalright Venomous-X, dual Noctua push-pull fan setup Lian-Li PC60 modified for proper airflow and thermal management 3.8ghz stable OC on air Laptop: Sony Vaio Z i5-520 4gb ram dual GPU -integrated GPU -(forget model) nvidia gpu with 54 stream processors CF reinforced frp case forged aluminum chassis heatpipe/copper finned internal cooling 3.2 lbs 7 hour business use battery life (measured, not rated) 5 year old design! You get the idea. I'd consider myself more knowledgeable about computer hardware/software than suspension. I'd also probably offend 95% of the forum, when I lump all the less expensive suspension options together. Suspension is like buying a phone. You get what you pay for. If you take the "free" option, (US people), or get the cheaper option (international), it's obviously not going to be as good as the latest and greatest. I use a GS3. |
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Every time I see a new post from a supplier about this awesome new product they just got in stock I always think to myself, hey why are you not listing the specific technical details of this product and then comparing & contrasting them to similar products so the buyers can weight the pros and cons and make an educated decision? In every one of these coilover threads that pop up there's always the question a few posts later, how does this compare to _____ other coilover and which would you recommend for ____ purpose? Would it not just then be easier to list all of this technical info and provide the comparison and possibly a biased recommendation right off the bat? Rather then having someone ask for it every time and then get a bunch of random and sometimes incredibly wrong information from "non experts" or people just simply telling them to search harder? :search: I think if one payed attention to these forums you would see how people are desperately trying to gain this information in order to compare different setups more thoroughly before they buy. This is something I think the stickied "BRZ/FR-S Suspension Options List" thread tried to accomplish, having all this info in one place, but it has really not been kept updated and if the information you're looking for is even there it's only the bear minimum. Obviously, no offense to whoever is tasked with maintaining it, I know it's not an easy job whatsoever. But hey, if suppliers & experts were willing to put together this comparison information for us i think it would be that much easier to maintain no? And yes @CSG Mike I think you're also right in that computer tech probably does advance much faster than suspension tech. I think the reason I'm comparing them now is because of how recently the FRS/BRZ hit the market. The aftermarket world is moving very quickly to get their R&D in on this platform and release their products for it, so while the technology has pretty much always been there, a lot of products are popping up relatively quickly for this relatively new platform. I assume this would most likely slow down dramatically in the future. |
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How much R&D do you think a $1000 set of coilovers have in them? All they really do is take an existing damper, make sure it fits, and sell it. Their mentality is "most people are going to buy it because it's cheap anyways", and quite frankly, they're right. As a reference point, our base price to rebuild/revalve dampers is $940, and most rebuilds cost more due to the parts needed. We also hold every single naturally-aspirated no-aero (in other words, pure mechanical grip) record for every track we have local access to for the FRS/BRZ, so I consider the cost of dialing in suspension quite justified. |
Well yes, obviously the cheaper setups do not have as much R&D behind them (if any at all) as the expensive setups. I don't think that's a proper reason behind not wanting to compare & contrast them with other products in their price range though, do you?
This is something that I think should be done in every price range, I guess you're just focusing on the 1000$ price point because that's where most of the options are. This is something that's been implemented into almost all product industries, the ability to take whatever products you may be interested in and easily being able to compare the technical specifications of them via their suppliers. And some take it one step further by offering some recommendations (biased or not) based off that technical information and the consumer's specific goals/needs. I guess it seems like this may just be something that's too much to ask for in the aftermarket car industry? I appreciate you taking the time to come here and have a conversation with me about it though, you guys are an amazing asset for this community. :respekt: |
I don't think so. Computer hardware is worthless/underperforming soon after it is released. Not to mention the depreciation (can it be called that if it is worth next to nothing?).
In 10 years a stock twin is still going to be a relatively well handling sport car. My i5, 8gb memory, 2gb video card, 80gb SSD in 10 years is going to be easier to throw out than to sell. |
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I pick these price points, because a $15k suspension is roughly analogous to a $600 video card. Likewise, the ~4k SRCs we use on our BRZ is roughly analogous to a $200 video card, where the sweet spot is, for price/performance. |
A comparison of suspensions would be exhausting simply from a time stand point, not to mention labor and cost. Technology is so much easier to do because labor is simple, and then a benchmark is easy to run and always controlled.
I wish it would be something easier to do but the task of comparing them would be daunting to say the least. Almost need a magazine or other media outlet to do this test over 6-8 months time. Something like DSPORT did with exhausts. Even that was an impressive test due to all the time they had to put into it. |
Now if we could get a tire manufacturer to throw in ~6 sets of tires to use during testing, a rim company to throw in a few sets of rims for back to back testing, and a gas company to sponsor the gas, and an oil company to cover the fluids... I'll throw in my time to do the testing :D
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Wait...what forum am I on? lol at the flags.
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lol.. bible long thread..
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Lots of good points brought up here. Some of my thoughts:
1. I would love to do a quarterly review/examination of suspension options. Unfortunately that's a massive investment of time and resources that we don't have. 2. The majority of new coilovers under $1k are exactly the same. No reason to review each one unless the different colors are really important to you. They'll come from 2 or 3 factories and use the same valving cartridges used on Impreza, Evo, etc. 3. Most options over $1500 are valved for this car. I can't speak for all of them of course. And that's NOT to say those that are designed specifically for this car are actually valved well. 4. We have tested a lot of coilovers at all price ranges and do our best to give our best evaluation. 5. This computer sucks. I used to keep up with the computer tech but at some point I realized I had a finite amount of brain storage for information and it's been used by suspension info at the moment. I need a new laptop. I say this because when the time comes I'm going to do a to of reading, be confused and maybe annoyed, and eventually ask someone for help. So I get the desire for a guide but I'll learn the most talking to people I trust. The reading will help though. 6. A big thing with us here at RCE is that we don't believe there is one option for everyone. Yes we make our own stuff but there are different needs and price ranges and what works for one person doesn't work for everyone. A guide could help and I'm glad to give my recommendations when I can but even more so I think it's hard to categorize every possible niche out there. I have to eat lunch. - Andy |
There is a fundamental difference between computer hardwareand suspension components.
Computer hardware is self-contained and one directionalwhile suspension components require human inputs and are situational. Price aside, you would never want less of something in acomputer. In fact, if you were given an unlimited budget you would simply buythe best components and you would put together the best possible computer, andthe computer would be the best, because you used the best components. The user would not have any effect on the awesomeness of thecomputer, because the computer is self-contained. When you’re buying ram, youalways want the best and newest ram, because the newest ram is the best. It isfaster. That is all that matters. No one buys 1 gig of ram to replace 8 and expects aperformance increase. No one buys a P2 to replace their i7 to speed up theirprocessing. Etc, etc, etc. Computer technology follows a path of constant upgrade, newparts are never designed to be inferior to the ones they replaced, unless theyare failures. You could argue that some software runs better on high speedsingle or duo cores, and so someone running that specific software could save acouple of bucks using older tech to get the maximum out of their gear, butquite honestly it’s ludicrous to really measure that with the exception of themost hardcore geeks. Most performance of a computer is EASILY MEASURED. Youdownload some stress software, run it for 2 minutes, and the thing spits out anumber of how fast it did this or that. You reference that number with the dollar value of whateveryou’ve got and you put it on a graph. It is very easy to plot computer hardwareon a price-per-performance graph, and it’s just as easy for a consumer to usethat graph to make their purchase decisions. Suspension is not at all like that. Because there is no one special setup that can do everythingright. Well, maybe you can get really close, but the $$$ you’re going to haveto spend is outside the scope of a user-friendly “list of stuff to buy” thatyou are requesting. It would be pointless to make a list of components that iseasy to read when the final price equals to what the average person makes in afucking year. Furthermore the price you pay for a product is not alwaysdirectly related to any sort of measurable performance. You could have two swaybars that offer the same levels ofresistance, but one is powder coated and the other is not, one will last 5years looking shiny while the other rusts after a month of use. You can’treadily graph that sort of thing. Metal/spherical bushings are best for performance. But theyare noisy and require higher maintenance. How do you plot tolerable noise vsprice? How do you plot scheduled maintenance (time) vs price? How do you knowtoday whether you’ll have time to get the car on the jackstands every 3 months?And how could you possibly apply your plot to someone else, living in adifferent environment. Or how about this, I’m certain that 90% of people who buycoilovers don’t use them for their intended purpose (corner balancing) andcertainly don’t take their cars out to the track. So tell me, how do you intend to graph a product’sperformance vs price when the people that are going to look at this graph arenot going to use the product as intended? This is why it’s futile to even bring up such an idea. Instead, what should be done, is a concentrated study of thephysics behind vehicle dynamics. If you are serious about improving or changingsome aspect of your car’s handling (comfort or performance), then your beststart is to understand how all the components work together and what part isresponsible for what result. If you understand the HOW and WHY, then you’ll know what itis that you need, and then you would simply go out and buy what you need, andif you can’t afford what you need, then you make your own concessions in termsof the end result. But none of this could readily be put on a graph or a chartand be used with any sort of real accuracy. So, That’s that. |
I think you're putting too much emphasis on this magical suspension graph that you think I was asking for so people could look at it and instantly know what to buy.
This is all in an attempt to provide people with more sources of knowledge when RESEARCHING what they want to buy. Key term, researching. Consolidation of specifications and knowledge into one. You can essentially drop the computer hardware metaphor all together since you all want to nit-pick it to pieces (kind of expected on internet forums), when I was really just trying to compare how the organization of knowledge is just a bit more streamlined than it is on these forums. Easy to access consolidated and streamlined information is absolutely something that would be beneficial for the consumers on these forums. But as already stated, the resources and time investment to do so would be too great along with the fact that most people are buying in the entry-level bracket where most systems are not discernible from each other anyway. Not the end of the world by any means as I know we have very knowledgeable and professional members & companies who are more than willing to help people in their pursuit of knowledge. So, That's that. |
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i'm sorry that something that is rather complex cannot be consolidated further problem of the 21st century, people don't feel like reading anymore and want everything explained in 140 characters or less. :bonk: |
I accept your apology ;)
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I think you're mistaken thinking that "new" technology as far as suspension goes is coming out every few months. It may appear that way given that the 86 platform is so new, the major players are coming out with "new" setups. Thats not the same thing as a new faster processor, or new mobo designs. After a few more years there wont be any "new" parts for the first gen 86. It will all be the same stuff thats been on the market for years and the "new" stuff will be the parts for the second gen 86.
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When the 95% of people ask “what is best”, the reality isthat they do not know what it is they are even asking, because if they didtheir question would be different.
The simpler the question, the more difficult an answer The more detailed a question, the simpler the answer “what is the best coilover for the FRS” is a dead-endquestion and no flow-chart in the world is gonna set the mind straight of the personasking such a question. the problem comes from within |
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