How much is RWD worth it?
 

Hey Guys,

Was checking out K20 4 door civic si and they are CHEAP...I'm talking like $16k Canadian for a clean 08. Really the main difference to me between the SI and the FRS would be RWD and probably better handling dynamics in the FRS. The thing is my one friend sold his e46 (prob 15k in mods) and drives an SI and loves it. He's trying to convince me I wouldn't really notice the difference unless I track the car. I can't really see my self tracking competively (maybe 3 days a year)....if that's the case would you guys say the FRS is worth the extra $10-12k for 95% street use?

This car was designed around the idea of a fun, rwd, responsive platform. If you seem torn between the toyobaru and a civic, you arent the target demographic. You either desire the rwd or you shouldnt really spend the premium on it. Go drive a miata and a civic and decide from there. Dont take anyones word for what is or isnt best. It isnt their money to begin with. In the end its your opinion that matters most. Who cares what others say, including me.

You will notice the differences if you push both cars a little bit harder. My car is AWD, and I drove SC300 for a few weeks, they are completely different when i push harder even with ABS and everything on. However, if you don't really back road drive or mountain drive, you hardly notice the differences especially, when you only drive on highway or freeway. I still justify paying more for FR-S/BRZ though because I can have more fun when I choose to(without being an a*shole on the road).

having owned and raced both, i could say that it really depend on what you prefer, but you wouldn't know unless you raced both. i used to love my fwd cars, until i got an s2000. from that car forward every car i own will be rwd and i hardly ever competitively track. its basically in how it feels to me. being pushed from being instead of pulled from the front. not having torque steer, having much greater control of the car in general (as long as you know how). its just such a more dynamic engaging drive. stepping into a fwd car now all i seem to be able to do is pick up on subtle nuances that i dont like about fwd's so its hard for me to enjoy them like i used to.

He's wrong. You should do a back-to-back comparison of a FWD and RWD car and base your decision on your own findings.

I have never understood this notion that the basic elements of a vehicle are mysteriously hidden until you enter a racing circuit. It's like saying "You won't notice the steering wheel is missing until you enter a racetrack." How absurd!

well, you live up north where lake effect snow is common, i think both the frs and si will have limited slip diffs(you should prob research it), what do you feel more comfortable in when driving in the snow? AWD is preferred, FWD is safer and RWD is funner, but you can still get the tail out in the snow in FWD

its really up to you... plus the frs has a snow mode in the automatic :D

both are great cars none the less, im just tired of under steer so im going RWD

Just a side note. Being rwd doesnt mean you won't have understeer. The s2000 is known as one of the most tail happy cars out there and I could still entice a good amount of under steer out of it.

What does change however is the dynamics of handling. You can just as easily entice oversteer or a 4 wheel drift if you choose if you're skilled. And the fact that the tires that steer you and the ones that handle most of the braking are not the same ones accelerating you.

Might also be worth noting that it only matters while accelerating. Its not a big deal. I would take good fwd car over an average rwd with these power levels. If the frs is worth the premium, its not because of rwd

Not necessarily. It matters while braking and in general with regards to tire life on the streets and tire temps on the track.

But yeah, basically it's not a big deal

And being rwd is definaty not what makes the ft-86 worth the premium

Its all driving feel,
fwd pulls forward
Rwd pushs u forward
And 4wd grabs you and launch forward.

The Si would still be fun for autocross and the like. Will the FR-S do better? Maybe. Is "doing a bit better" worth $10k to you? They are both great cars.

Wait until the FR-S arrives, drive it, and if you enjoy both of them equally as well, get the cheaper one!

On another front, this isn't really an apples to apples comparison. You're comparing a new car to a 5 year old used car. Of course the older car is going to be much cheaper. If you really want the FR-S, but don't want to pay for a new one wait a few years and buy a used one.

Best of luck,
Brett

its a fucking civic.

It's a old ass 2008 civic. It's a used car. Why do people keep comparing old cars to a FR-S\BRZ?

:bow::lol:

Snow mode just makes the car start in 2nd gear...

Questions like these show the meger begininngs of a wider enuthisast following to come. But as we can see it will take time for this to happen, and one (shared) model wont be able to do it alone.

Clever, let me try...

it's a fucking Toyota

Ooh, that was fun :sigh:

I have a 2007 Civic Si (coupe). I switch between it and my M3 every couple of days, and I can tell you there is a tremendous difference. People try to describe it, but nobody does it justice. You just need to drive both.

Just wanted to put it out there that when you buy a used car depending on your credit score, interest rate can be 6-7 points higher than if you buy a new car. I would do some investigating in this department because Hondas have the highest resell values amongst all vehicles based on their reliabilty and used cars have jacked-up interest rates so you might be spending more money on the Civic then the 25k new car.

I had an 07 Si prior to my current Genesis, so I think I can make a pretty good FWD vs RWD comparison. The Genesis is much bigger and heavier then a FRS obviously, but close enough for this comparison.

As a daily driver here in sometimes snowy Ontario, the FWD and taller ground clearance offered the Si better traction in the snow, but the Genesis is more controllable in the slippery stuff. The traction control, LSD and snow tires made it handle very well under most conditions. EXCEPT under very deep snow, where the snow just piles up underneath it. I suspect an FRS/BRZ would suffer the same problem. More likley to get stuck, but handles better.

An 08 Si wont have NAVI or VSA (traction control) and is the older pre-2011 body restyle. The K20 does take very well to mods (I/H/E and Flashpro) and handles great for a FWD though.

The FRS/BRZ will handle better then the Si and it will probably be a drivers race in acceleration. IMO, the really only benefits the Si will have is a cheaper price and more space inside.

Buy FRS/BRZ end of story lol

I'm sure that 130 or so bhp difference plays into it as well ;-)

Well, you will not feel any difference..... until you push the car fast through corners....

A FWD car is somehow driving a front axle, that pulls a dead tail.....
A RWD car means balancing the car over both axles, influencing the self-steering properties and balancing the car with the throttle between mild understeer, neutral, mild oversteer and .... drift!
For that reason I would never accept a FWD car as sports car. Nice for all day use, but not a real sports car. Too much fixed on the front axle.

Keep in mind, the E46 was already a little fat, not really the best RWD car anymore. However, the Toyobaru is!

what he seid:thumbsup:

I have a Supra and a Civic one gose frome A to B with out costing much money the other is a GOD.
If you think an SI is a realy good drivers car than thats what you should get.

Unless a car is pushing over approximately 300Hp RWD will have zero adavantage over FWD in anything except drifting and maybe autoX which are both low speed competition. It sertainly has no advantage in day to day driving. In fact, in adverse conditions (rain and snow) FWD will always be superior to RWD to some extent. It is simple physics. More weight on the driven wheels and front tires digging through the obstacle rather than trying to be pushed over it.

I love the FR-S but not just because it is RWD. It is all about the package or as Toyobaru put it "the balance". If you were only going to but the Scion or Subaru because it is RWD then save the 9K and buy the Honda Civic Si. It is a very good car.

In my opinion there is no comparison to be had. The civic is a prime example of model bloat, and its a glorified grocery getter. If you are cross shopping a used car and a new car, chances are you shouldnt be looking at brand new cars in the first place.

Sorry I disagree completely.

You think a Miata would do as well as a FWD car…………LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

+1, I have driven plenty of 200hp FWD cars and to say "Unless a car is pushing over approximately 300Hp RWD will have zero adavantage over FWD in anything except drifting and maybe autoX which are both low speed competition. It sertainly has no advantage in day to day driving." is totally wrong. Maybe there is no performance advantage but there is definitely a difference in steering feel and handling between FWD and RWD cars. Whether you are able to tell that difference or care is another story.

:word:

:thumbsup:

keep in mind we are talking about a 100% price increase...rwd, and the frs for that matter, is not worth it. now when you combine the new car factor then you run into a different matter but you would probably be better off buying a used si and a cheap miata to have real fun with. that way you can walk away from an accident and not have worry financially

with all honestly this would be just a personal preference, some prefer RWD some prefer FWD, I went with the FWD for my 1st car and was persuaded to convert over to FWD, so I hopped over from a Rx7 to an ITR, honestly they were both fun, but there are so many things my FWD didn't satisfy me with. I'm too much of a tail happy person, hence getting a FR-S would definitely be my choice.

I did not say you could not tell the difference. I said that RWD has no advantage. That means performance advantage. And there are plenty of FWD cars that will hand the Miata its a$$. Over the last 41 years of driving I have owned high performance front and rear wheel drive cars. A lot of them. I stand by my statement. Anyone that thinks you HAVE to have RWD or AWD to enjoy performance driving in low horsepower cars is mis-informed and lacks driving experience.

Thanks everyone for their input! Ive collectively seen some patterns in people's comments:

1. Don't buy the FRS over the si just because of RWD:
This makes sense cause I wouldnt consider a gen coupe or a mustang or a camaro and they are all RWD

2. Drive the cars back to back
Will do.

3. Poor comparison...
Yes these are different cars by their means but their endpoint is the same. The si is known to be a lot of fun too. And if I can achieve 90% the fun and save $10k well that's something to consider.

mankarn86,

You are on the right track. :clap:

It's 40hp, and the M3 weighs 300lbs more than the Civic. In a straight line, the Civic will give the M3 a run for its money, and yet driving the M3 and the Civic back to back just makes the Civic feel like johnboat.

I said Civic, not Honda. The point I was trying to put across was that its nothing "special". Everyone has/or has had a civic. On the other hand the 86 is new and much more "exclusive" than a civic.

yeah for like 6 months

Unless you drive it like a grandma, you can definitely tell the difference. I've driven several FWD sports cars and while I would recommend them to some people, I will never buy a FWD car again. My current car is an AWD sports car which I find to be the best all around compramise. But when fun is the priority, RWD is the only option IMO. FWD cars have a heavy front end for poorer handling dynamics and they lose traction and torque steer under hard acceleration (unless they don't have much power).