Speaker Upgrades
 

Hey guys,

So I am a little disappointed by the stock audio system - which is fine considering how much car you get in other respects, but the highs on the car clip and rasp, the mid is nothing impressive and there is literally no bass.


So I went down to my local car audio shop, who is basically an alpine-exclusive dealer. He recommended the spr-60c for the 6" door speakers and tweeters:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/spr-60c/


and he didn't really push for me to touch the 4" speakers in front or in the back, but if I did, I think that these are the best 4" speakers that alpine has:
http://www.alpine-usa.com/product/view/sps-410/


I have a nice 2 channel setup at my home, and I realize that car audio can't come close to good home audio - but do any audiophiles out there have any experience with alpine? Will the sound quality justify the ~500 price tag? Is there a better brand out there for car audio?


Cheers!

I'm on the same boat and waiting for any good by this black Friday, but you need to get the new alpine HU to make it sound qood. Here is my choice in order.
1) A 6.5" component focal K2 front.
2) Infinity kappa
3) Alpine is the least pick.

Amazon has the alpine R's for $155 right now. I think I might scoop up a pair and install them myself.

Shouldn't be too difficult, right?

[edit] Just started looking into car audio - damn there is a lot out there. Maybe I won't jump the gun and instead take my time with this...

The largest subwoofer you will need for balanced sound (like a home hi fi system) would be a 10" with correctly powered amplifier. A subwoofer is vital though.

Edit: I have an alpine type e 10" from a couple years ago in a truck box in my car currently and it completely satisfies my desire for bass. It doesn't take much for such a small cabin.

...Ok. Well the dash speakers are 3.5 and the doors run 6.5s. I know this because I just measured them. The doors also run at a 2ohm impedance, so if those alpines are 4 ohm, your doors would sound extremely tame. The door 6.5s actually aren't that bad, but I went with some jbls to fill. They're ehh. The real star of my setup were the pioneer 3.5s on the dash. The stock speakers are complete shit, and I promise you would hear the difference switching them out. You could buy the Metra harness and just cut and plug to wire them up. Also cut out the pass filter and put a new bass blocker for your dash mounts. If you have money to blow, the focal speakers are TOP NOTCH. I'm just too broke to afford them.

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Okay, I have been researching car audio all day, and I am quite impressed with the level of engineering in these setups. The learning curve is steeper than I thought, but I think that I am catching up.

At this point, what I am looking for are $400ish step-upgrades that I can make every few months to keep building out my sound system to the point where I have a full active setup.


After a bit of reading, I am thinking that upgrading the factory amp to a 4 channel one might be a good first step - along with replacing the 6.5's in the doors. Any advice on selecting speakers, amps, wiring, etc?


I figure that will leave me room to remove the back 4" speakers and power the front components/tweeters with the remaining 2 channels from the amp. Is this setup possible with the stock head unit?


Some notes: I want to retain an OEM look to the system. Keeping the oem grill on the front component/tweeters is a must. I also will probably dynamat the car while I have everything teared up.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

That's not a typical amp swap. Check the inputs on the stock amp and compare it to an aftermarket amp. If you're going through the trouble of swapping out the full speaker setup, then make your life easier and get a nice headunit to start.

Edit:

Actually upon doing a little more research, I found a nice little alpine amp that can run on the line outs provided through the stock wiring. You just need the Metra 70 1761 and you'll be good to go... I did my speakers last year October when I had limited info on the wiring, and now you've sold me into buying the alpine ktp455u! Damn you..

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When I do get a head unit, I am going to want a top of the line model like the ine-w927hd. Unfortunately, I do not have the cash flow to drop on a head unit like that at this time. In 6 months or so that shouldn't be a problem, but for now my budget is about $400.

The alpine amp was about 110 on Amazon and the harness was about 10. Not a bad start. The 3.5 could just drop in, or maybe shallow 4s could fit instead.

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I ran Alpine Type-R components in all 4 doors in my STI, and each pair cost $300 for just the speaker pairs. It was absolutely worth every penny. Better than the Type-R coaxials with better highs, though both components and coax's have excellent mids and non-subwoofer bass.

If I wasn't pretty well sold on OEM Audio+, I'd be going with a Type-R solution for my BRZ. Probably go with components again, with woofers in the doors, and route the tweeters to the front deck and leave out the mid-range 3" speakers, replace the rear speakers with 4" Type-S's, and go with a JL Audio 8" sub in the rear (probably dual 4ohms wired in parallel), and run a 5 channel amp: 1 mono channel for the sub, and a channel for each speaker, and run the amp from the stock HU through an audio-control LC2 (and from the LC2 pre-outs to the amp), or use an aftermarket HU with good pre-outs (at least 4V) and run pre-outs from the HU to the amp.

I'm not a high-def audiophile (I won't spend $800 on a set of headphones and have a special 2-channel listening room or whatnot), but I am an audio-lover. I like GOOD audio.

The alpine type R's are very much worth their price tag, but you DO need to amp the speakers. The stock HU doesn't provide enough power to power aftermarket speakers, period, and doing so will not give you good quality, or at least not at the level which would justify the price tag. But with a good AMP, the speakers will really shine and prove their worth.

I had the choice between the cleansweep or the lc2 and I went with the audiocontrol. I'm sure you'll like it.

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Only if I don't go with OEM Audio+'s Reference 400+ CF.

Probably the simplest solution.

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Okay, a quick question about the R's - They have a 6.5" component speaker and a tweeter, which means that the component is going in my door and the tweeter is going on the dash. Since the dash's tweeter is already connected to the 3.5" component speaker, is there any wiring/fitment problems that will arise from having the door/tweeters paired instead of the tweeter/dash pairing? Should I just upgrade the 3.5" speakers while I am in there? Would the SPS-410's fit with the type R tweeters in the factory location and still have room for the OEM speaker cover?

[Edit] Also - what does the crossover that comes with the speakers actually do?

Basically you ignore factory wiring and remove the factory tweeter and 3.5" midrange and factory woofer, and remove the factory x-overs. The component speakers come with their own x-overs and are already set properly. The tweeters and woofers should fit in the factory locations just fine, iirc.

The crossover that comes with the speakers routes the correct frequencies to the proper speaker: the tweeter highs go to the tweeter and the other frequencies go to the woofer. It's at the external amp level that you use the amp's built in high-pass and lo-pass filters to channel the subwoofer frequencies only to the sub (set the low-pass on the sub channel and the high pass on the speaker channels).

Hey pseudo, I actually just did my install this past weekend with the Alpine 6.5s and the SPS-410. It was a lot of work, but same amount of effort that doing any speaker swap would be. Here is what I learned.

1. The 6.5s fit no problem in the door. I made a new bracket out of MDF and put down dynamat between the metal body and the MDF bracket. Use the Alpine bracket as a template. I used the Metra adapter for the doors as the OEMs connect from the top/outside and the Alpines connect from the backside (inside the door). Just route the Metra extension through the hole that the OEM harness comes out of (I think I routed between the window slide rail and the inner door panel. Check you don't get interference with the power window before you put the door panel back on). I cut out that super cheap plastic weather "liner" and covered the holes with more Dynamat.

2. I put the 410s in the back. They won't fit in the factory brackets without some serious modification, so I again made a new bracket out of MDF (add a second layer for thickness to the top bolt holes for proper offset). I re-used the OEM wire couplers after cutting them off the speakers and soldered to the new wiring for the speakers. Slot the holes in the bracket so that you can line it up with the speaker grill. Remember to buy longer screws and washers ($2). Add Dynamat again to whatever you see. I drove the car to work one day without the rear speakers installed and there was a noticeable "something missing" feeling.

3. The 410s DO NOT fit in the front. There isn't enough depth before you hit the HVAC vents. The Tweeters from the the SPR will pop right in to the OEM grill (put some foam or felt around the edge still like you would any speaker). Since I removed the front 3.5s, I used the glue strips to attached the Crossovers onto the HVAC vents. For wiring, I cut off the OEM coupler and just soldered in the new connections to go to the Crossover. You can trim the extra wire first and when you are done wrap the wiring in felt or cushion tape to prevent rattles.

Everything sounds way better than the stock. I can hear an actual sound stage now and the music isn't muddled. I have the Alpine in-line amp ready to go, thinking I will hang (using dense foam and zip ties) from the IP hanger beam behind the radio OR screw it into the glove box (will fit still with the OM). Then of course bypass the factory amp in the trunk and remove for 1 lb of weight down. I already have the Alpine CDE-HD149BT installed. I'll do some tuning and possibly more sound deadening when I get the amp installed.

Disagree. A sub is not vital if you properly prep the doors and install the right separates. I put in a three way Hertz with passive crossovers and a good 2 channel amp and it sounded great. I then made the mistake of borrowing my kid's sub for a day. Now I have to put one in. If I never heard the sub I absolutely would not miss it. But I have, so now I'm screwed. That whole "feeling" as opposed to just hearing the music.

I'm with you; I really like Infinity Speakers. I have them in my 73 VW Super Beetle with a 12" Sub behind the rear seat. Sure would be nice to have them in the Doors of my FR-S. Might look into that sooner than later

Yeah that's the big difference for me, I do a lot of driving and being able to feel the kick drums and bass makes the rest of the components sound better. I have no desire to upgrade my tweeters or door speakers now. just my .02 though :thumbup:

If you're really feeling daring, the rear 4s have tons of room around them if you wanted to set up a custom bracket to replace the 4s with a 6 or even a shallow 8.

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Problem there is it would take more than just a bracket. You'd need to create an enclosure out of that space and cut a big hole in the panel, which means those speakers have to go with the car if you ever sell it.
There are a couple of companies making what passes for decent sounding 6.5 or 7 inch subs (okay, at that size it's more like a deep bass driver as opposed to a subwoofer, but I didn't name them) that might fit quite nicely and really pump up the low end.

True, true. I'm sure that someone with good fabrication skills can make something out of the rear speaker slots. I opened out everything with my speaker setup, and it was quite surprising how much wasted space sits back there with those headunit powered, useless 4s. The 4s themselves sit in brackets making them even more useless.

I ran a 12 in the trunk of mine, but now I might go with an 8 to save some space. Really limited room back there, and even more so when you use your car for functional trips like the grocery store, pool store, etc.

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The rear speakers are pretty useless but still vital to sound stage fill. Your main definition and clarity will come from the door and dash speakers and the sub (you should have one if you like audio). The rear speakers just need to be good enough to fill the stage and keep the bass from feeling like it's all coming from the back. Decent 4" speakers can do this. You'll want better if you carry passengers in the back (like if you're a tiny Asian and so are your passengers :bonk: ), but otherwise, just go with good type-s 4" or the Infinity or Polk equivalents. No need to spend big on custom enclosures and such for those speakers.

Might need more powers though. Those run on power straight from the headunit. Have you swapped yours yet?

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For 4"? Just drive them from the HU and amp the rest.

And no I haven't swapped anything yet. My car is still at the repair shop. I've been driving a rental now for longer than I've been driving the BRZ (see: http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showp...ostcount=18262 )

Sorry to hear that. Never trust a bonneville driver.

And my ktp455u is on the way, so I might run two separate lines to the 4s to use all 4 channels. I'll compare the hu powered speaker with the amp to see if there really is a big difference. If not I'll provably bridge the amp to two channels for my doors.

Hopefully you could get your car back and the damage wouldn't be noticeable. My brother's g37 was rear ended and the chassis was all f'd up.

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But their location bites even for rear fill. Too low and close to the front seats. If you insist on rear fill, move them to the rear deck.

Not really.

When I had my sti, I put my rear satellites (type r components) near the front seats on the door cards of the rear doors & it brought the bass part of the stage forward.

As far as my car, repairs were completed today & I go to pick her up in a few hours. No chassis or frame damage, just rear bumper damage that was fixed or replaced. Should drive just the same.

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That's good to hear. Be safe out there!


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Except that isn't rear fill. You used speakers in the rear doors to enhance the bass. Rear fill is primarily for two purposes. In no particular order;
1) at low volumes the rear fill speakers simulate reflections off the back wall of a club or auditorium, making the system sound more live.
2) they make it harder to localize the bass from the subwoofer by making the sound from the back be something closer to full range.

Speakers mounted in the factory location won't do either of those things.

Glad to hear your car is okay.

Actually the bass was plenty powerful, but it "felt" like it was all in the back. Setting those tweeters up high near front seats helped the bass feel more forward, since the highs are more directional.

I have listened to many car speakers for many years and I still have the kappa perfect 6.1 component on my other honda which is sound so good with top notch clarity. The focal K and utopia is one of the badass "Ferrari" car speaker cost from 1k-$5k ! lol ; well, I will probably go w/ another kappa perfect 6.1 for this car again, but I need to also plan this time to install another 3.5" pair for good midrange on the dash to complete the front "audiophile" sound spectrum rather than just hi & low.

So first of next year I'm going to do just that
Pair up the Kappa 62.11 & the 329CF which is 3 1/2" and a two way Speaker and from the Kappa line as well. Not component Speaker System but still better than what is in there now. :w00t:

So is it a general consensus to remove the dash 3.5 and use component 6.5s in the door replacing the dash tweeters as well or does someone have a recommendation on how to replace/setup the 3.5s?

That's not entirely true. The rear speakers have a huge impact on your sound imaging. They control how high and together your front imaging is. Having good rear fill makes or breaks a good build. Also the placement of them is actually really good. You do not want them to be pointed toward you. That makes them too bright and distracts from the front stage.

I wouldn't say there is a consensus. I will never go with a two way setup up front again after having done a three way in my BRZ. Having midbass only to the 6.5" and a mid-range speaker produces a clearer and cleaner sound. A perfect example is the song Ends by Everlast. On a two way setup, the midbass distorts the mid-range changing the vocals to be more bass heavy. On a three way setup there is no distortion and the vocals are clear and well defined.

Generally speaking, rear speakers can be very useful. The problem is that in a car this small, the location is extra critical, and the factory location is so bad that you are better off without.
As far as the rear speaker location is concerned, you're going to have to "agree to disagree" with several of us.
The problem with a two way is that the crossover is too high to seamlessly blend the speakers together using the factory locations. If they could be put closer together in the same plane, it might be different.
The three way Hertz system I used crosses from mid to bass at 500 hertz, which means that most of the direction critical sound is coming from the same location on the dash.
I'd be willing to bet the other good 3 ways have similar crossover points.

Details on your setup please? Amp configuration and the three way is done?

Hertz hsk163 with 6.5 bass driver, 3.5 mid and a tweeter. It has passive crossovers. I don't know what the mid/tweeter crossover frequency is, but I would guess somewhere around 3k. It really is moot anyway as the speakers are right next to each other. The mid/bass is 500 hz. There is a passive crossover under each of the front seats. The amp is two channels and mounted to the back of the rear seat. There are line out converters in the dash and the doors are thoroughly sound deadened. The amp's crossover was set to 50 hz just to provide some protection because I'm pushing close to 150 watts/channel through the speakers. I am currently experimenting with subs and it looks like I'll have either a 10" in the trunk or an 8" in the cabin, sealed box either way. The system is amazing without a sub, it just gets even better with one.

I think we need to get together in the spring so you can hear my BRZ. Rear speakers have a HUGE impact on sound stage imaging. In general front/center speakers should be on axis to the listener and rear/side should be off axis. If the rear speakers were on the rear deck as you mentioned they would be bouncing off the glass and on axis with the listener. Most people who do not use rear fill have used on axis rear fill in the past only. Proper speaker positioning is 90% of the battle for good sound. This is one area Toyota has gotten right with the interior.

In complete agreement. I have Hertz MLK 3 PA Mille in my BRZ for my front stage. My crossover range for my midbass is a little lower, 63-350 hz. Of course I have a DSP in my system for that. The 3" and tweet are on passive crossovers.

I'm curious as to the reasoning of off-axis instead of on.
I didn't disagree that rear fill isn't important. I've used it myself in other cars. My problem is with the location of the drivers in this particular car.
I find that speakers located where the rears are in this car always sound far too loud from one relative to the other, unless they are so low in volume as to not contribute anything anyway.