Burnt Clutch at just 4800 miles!
 

First off, I know there are other threads that address clutch and tranny issues. I didn't want to hijack them so I decided to start a new one because my issue deals with a burnt clutch as well as a warranty problem. I'll try my best to explain. And obviously if anyone else has dealt with a similar issue, it would be good to know for all of us consumers. So let me try to explain.

On Saturday November 16th, my clutch failed at just under 4800 miles. No, I do not have a habit of riding the clutch. In fact, I've been driving manual transmission vehicles in addition to motorcycles since the mid-80's. This is a first for me. As I was downshifting, the clutch literally stuck to the floor as it was fully engaged. (Sound familiar? Toyota accelerators?) I have no idea why it got stuck. It wasn't because of the floor mat. I used my left foot to get underneath it and pull it up which I did, but after that I could only compress the clutch halfway and was unable to shift. The car was no longer drivable. After calling Toyota Roadside Assistance, I had the vehicle taken to Auto Nation Toyota Irvine where I leased the vehicle back in August.

I thought for certain this would be covered under warranty with such low miles. But today, November 19th, I got a call and they said that their service technicians determined that this was not a "factory defect", but caused by an "outside" issue, which they did not specify. So I'm left with a $1600 repair bill.

After I got the call I spoke with a couple attorneys to see if I could possibly contest this. In a nutshell, they said my chances are slim. I was told that Toyota tends to be difficult to litigate against and that they are one of the more arrogant car manufacturers that want to maintain a reputation of having non-defective cars. In addition, I made the mistake of taking the car back to the dealer (again, because I thought it would be covered under warranty) instead of an independent shop which might be able to provide proof that it, indeed, was a defective part. At this point, Auto Nation Irvine has disassembled my car and I've decided I'm going to eat the $1600 and just pay the damned bill. Should this problem occur again in the future, I don't know, maybe I can determine that I have a lemon on my hands. But for now, I'm frustrated and defeated. :sigh:

Yikes. That's a rough situation you're in. Please keep us updated on why it happened and the outcome.


Good luck with everything.


EDIT: Did you happen to have done the clutch pedal adjustment at any point? Could that have been a contributing factor?

Out of curiosity, Did you ever clutch kick the car? Have you ever drifted it?
Also the issue sounds like your pressure plate lostits teeth.
I would advise you not to pay 1600 to gert it fixed. Dropping the transmission in this car takes about 1.5- 2 hours.... Then you can change the clutch.
1600 is steep. I would find out what that outside issue is and let one of us talk you through it.

All the best, Maverick.

Don't even dare paying that bill. Warranties are not limited to 'inside' issues. Have them explain the outside and why they have ruled out an internal problem. That's how they make money and sometimes they do so being bullies. Don't let that happen. Hold your ground and get an explanation. As mentioned above, we will help you through the process of getting this covered. Keep the $1600 in your bank account.

Call corporate, and request that a regional rep from TMS CQS comes out to review the car or to at least review your case file. All of them are engineers who can make a much more effective assessment of "abuse" versus production build quality issue.

Especially since you're in SoCal, you're very close to corporate. You honestly might be better off going to a Toyota dealership in Torrance and asking to meet the rep there.

I'll play devil's advocate...

Just cause you've been driving a while does not mean you do it correctly. My Mom's been driving over 30 years and she still wait until the last second to slam on her brakes. I've been driving for almost 10 years and I can heel-toe, rev match, left foot brake, etc with the best of them on the track.

Also, they found out the "faulty" accelerator pedals were not, and that it was stupid people not knowing the difference between the brake and the gas. I don't think you want to throw yourself in with that group of people.

Perhaps telling us more about your driving habits would help, like do you race (autox, drift, track days)? Do you run it hard on the street (popping clutches, hard launches, power shifts)? Or do you granny shift, not double clutching like you should :D

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Sounds like a broken pressure plate, causing clutch drag and worn out prematurely. Usually happens with hard launches, power shifting...etc. In some cases the input shaft would be damaged by a seized throw out bearing.

Btw, a sunken mechanical clutch pedal has absolutely nothing to do with a stuck fly by wire accelerator pedal.

I was told by my Subaru rep that I could essentially beat the shit out of my clutch and I would get a free one under warranty. Sorry about the shitty toyota service department.

Well, FastOnFastOff ......that's a shame .... :(

I addition to the above questions, before it "went out", had you noticed any difference in the release/engagement points?

Had you noticed it slipping?

If you answer our questions, maybe we can help explain why it failed.

I hope you get er fixed up soon and back on the road...:thumbsup:

humfrz

Yeah sure.. The way subaru denies warranty at the drop of a hat.. I would say your rep is full of shit.

The clutch is a wear item similar to brake pads. When they wear down fast it's because of use and usually abuse. Unless you can prove otherwise, I bet you are stuck with the bill.

I've work with multiple manufactures, Subaru is most likely to cover whatever people ask for. They pay for the first clutch, almost no exception. Brake pads and wipers are covered up to 36k, no questions asked. People have to just be polite and not a PITA, claims are usually shot down at the dealership level. ie: piss off the service writer/manager/mechanic, they're the people that tell the story to the district rep and ultimately deny claims.

No they didn't. The software was found to be riddled with inefficiencies and bad/lazy programming. Do some more reading into it.

Here's some reading for you:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-scare-feature

I also checked into the situation personally when I was an engineer and found no mechaical issues. Also notice it only happened to automatic trans equipped vehicles.

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Burnt clutch in 4800 miles would seem to indicate some kind of mechanical failure, especially if you've got a lot of experience driving manuals (and assuming you're not abusing the clutch). I'd escalate this as far up the chain as possible.

The software issue had nothing to do with "unintended acceleration".

The reason unintended acceleration is ALWAYS a driver error is you should just select neutral and, if necessary switch off the engine.

This is why neutral can be selected without pressing the brake pedal in all automatics.

The same dufous who doesn't know this also can't tell the brake pedal from the accelerator. Misapplication of pedals is a well known phenomenon especially among driving instructors. Software does not cause throttles to open, the systems are redundantly fail safe. The same technology as fly by wire airliners use and military aircraft and trains etc etc.

In olden days throttles used to stick open, return springs broke or fell off, throttle plates iced up or linkages broke. To be competent to drive safely you needed to know what to do if this happened to you: select neutral (or push in the clutch) and switch off. In those days the engine would explode if you didn't switch off, nowadays the rev limiter just cuts in so you have lots of time to switch off.

Bottom line: the speed of the car is ALWAYS up to the driver.

This post may save your life someday.

Agree, however, shutting off the engine you also lose power steering and power brakes, just something to keep in mind. Turn off the engine once you have slow down and steer clear of danger.

Thanks for the feedback guys. To shed some light, I do drive harder than merely commuting. I do not drift the car (purposely). It's gone to the canyons 15+ times and WSIR once. Over the phone, I was told that the clutch was "fried". That being said, I think the proper moral thing to do is to pay the bill.

I was under the impressions that these cars could be driven hard - not abused - but at least driven hard.

But what you described was a broken clutch (pedal on the floor).

A proper break-in for the clutch will also help extend the service life. So take it easy for the first 500 miles on your new clutch.

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hmmm.......a "fried" clutch, to me, is one that has been warn down to almost nothing or "overheated" ..... usually caused by the clutch being out of adjustment or riding the clutch or pulling a trailer or it was just plain old. Also, intentially slipping a clutch can take a toll.

Your canyon carving or a day at the track shouldn't wear out a clutch on the FR-S (non-boosted).

humfrz

They have been, like humfrz said unless there's something wrong with the system (not fully engaging or something) there's no reason for it to have failed this early (unless you know you've been abusing it).

I think I've seen a grand total of 4 threads about premature clutch failure (admittedly not in the track section), it's hard to tell if it's from abuse or not but your case is abnormal. I'd be looking into it more aggressively, but if $1600 is a small price to pay to get the monkey off your back and get back to things that matter it's understandable. Most of the people who bought this car were not expecting $1,000+ repair bills within the first two or three years of ownership (hell I'm looking at spending less than $200/year plus tires and gas), you're going to see a lot of resistance for shelling out the money.

If it was my car, I'd be doing the repair myself, but I'm insane.

Tell them you want to see the "fried" clutch. If it didn't fail due to wear, then in my mind it should be covered under warranty.

That all sounds bogus to me. I drive my car plenty hard, done a number of Autoxes, my commute is through canyons, etc, etc...25k miles clutch feels fine.

Yea, it felt broken because what I described is exactly how it went down with the clutch sticking to the floor. If it was fried, shouldn't I have at least smelled something?

For sure I'll ask. They already offered to show it to me.

For me it's primarily a time-issue. If I had the time (the ability to live without a car), I'd be much more aggressive. $1600 is not small for me, but just at the point where I think waving the white-flag is the better option. I should be getting the car back tomorrow or Friday at the latest.

They can tell if the clutch is "fried", usually the plate shows signs of slipping/heat, as well as the flywheel, which will show signs of being abused or being burnt up.

Sounds to me like your clutch hydraulic line may have lost pressure. This would cause the pedal to go to the floor, and with subsequent pumping, might get you half of it back.

It might be as simple as tightening a loose fitting and rebleeding the system.

Did they tell you what failed on your clutch? I would think, that even with abuse, it would be pretty hard to burn up or break a clutch in 4800 miles.

I would stand your ground, go higher up the food chain, and get them to replace whatever's broken.

Good luck!

Like some others have said, a loss of pressure could cause what you are describing. The Evo X has a weak clutch master cyclinder (now apparently being recalled) that when people upgraded their clutches would break the CMC.

When the CMC would break, it leaked fluid, and the clutch pedal would go to the floor and not pop back up without some assistance.

That would seem reasonable.

The truth is different, though, which may be worth learning for some of the new manual transmission drivers reading here. There's abuse and then there's ABUSE!

A service manager at a VW dealership related this story. A dad brings his 16-year-old teenage son into the dealership on a Friday to buy him a new GTi.

The kid has never driven a manual gearbox, so someone at the dealership offers to give him a brief driving lesson to familiarize him with the basics.

Dad and kid decline, and they take the new GTi home.

They angrily return on Monday with a burned out clutch disk and a blued flywheel. It lasted just one weekend.

Surprisingly, VW generously offered to replace the parts, but the owner had to pay for the labor. But, only this once, naturally.

It is quite possible to destroy a clutch (and the flywheel via over-heating) in a mere weekend of abuse. The kid must have gone berserk, though, don't you think? :D

Expensive lesson to learn.

Could this be why your clutch got fried?

From the thread :$110 Track Day@Willow Springs-Big Willow- Nov 16-17 in SoCal
It failed on the same day you had a track event. Did it fail at the track? Could the dealership had people at that track event writing down plates? Anytime you post up information about what your doing with the car that could be considered "abuse" or post up what mods you've done and then you try to bring it in for warrenty issues you run the risk of warranty repairs being denied.

The clutch on the OEM car should be able to survive several AutoX and Track days if not ABUSED! as Porsche's story describes, only the OP really knows if he fried it on his own or not, which may be why he's willing to shell out this time.

Makes me nervous about losing my 86 track virginity though...

I'm not making any claims to the reason it got fried, just that it looks extremely suspicious that on his very first track day ever the clutch gets fried. Its unfortunate that it happened, but at least he's doing the right thing and paying for it out of pocket. What is unfortunate is that he took it to a dealership and now he's going to end up with another stock clutch and flywheel. He could of had a better clutch and lightened flywheel for not that much more money.

Just because you pay up front for this doesn't mean the warranty doesn't cover it and get you a refund or dealer credit after the fact. Warranty is warranty.

The main dealers have to do the work if you want to claim warranty.

Clutch plates are not warranted against wear but they are warranted against manufacturing defects.

You are entitled to Toyota HQ ruling on the cause of this premature failure and, if they refuse to warranty it you can still try to prove them wrong. You will need your own experts though. Toyota must preserve the parts and produce them to your experts or tusk an adverse finding in court should it go that far.

Premature clutch plate wear is caused by inadequate pressure plate pressure. This can be due to operator error (by far the most common) defective pressure plate spring (rare but possible as these are heat treated spring steel) or hydraulics that prevent full spring pressure reaching the plate. Other possible causes of clutch failure include disintegration of clutch plate lining or failure of the pressure plate assembly. Your description is of failed hydraulics. If the clutch pedal stays fine then the master or slave cylinder failed or the clutch line blocked up internally holding the clutch partially disengaged. However, this should not wear the clutch plate unless it had been a developing fault for quite some time.

What is Toyota saying are the damaged parts and why they are damaged?

Yes, you shut off the engine in old cars to stop them blowing up, not ideal but a blown engine also leads to no power steering or brakes and also a blown engine.

Modern engines will run at the limiter all day without breaking and you should NOT switch them off until the car has stopped. The noise can be very intimidating though so you need to stay cool.

GG.

LOL!

Time to begin practicing your heel-and-toe technique? :D

If you lived near me, I'd gladly teach you. Sincerely. :)

When I was done with you, you'd be beside yourself with satisfaction and joy. :eyebulge:

Ask for the parts back.

They belong to you, and are not being returned to Toyota as part of the warranty process. That's awfully nice of the dealership to show you something that belongs to you :)

Take pictures. Call corporate. The least you can do is ask for some kind of assistance. You might get a sympathetic ear on the other end that offers help.

A worn clutch disc would not cause your clutch pedal to lose pressure and fall flat on the floor. Sounds like something went in the hydraulic system and they are just trying to make some money off of you.