What kinds of gains do you expect with E / I and tune?
 

Good morning all. I was thinking about this last night, and I'd really like to get the BRZ up to ~200 wHP (which is about +30 HP from what i've seen so far).

Obviously no one has any real experience with modding yet, but I'm going to be keeping everything N/A. Do you guys think ~30 whp is even possible from these simple mods?

no, between E/I I'd guess 11/12 whp.

Add VTEC stickers + air plane wing + mean body kit + muffler delete + massive camber + overstretched tires = +400 hp

[u2b]zhT3C9mHLZ4[/u2b]

At the most maybe 10-15, though thats pushing it. I think headers are going to be the best bang for the buck in the I/H/E/T setup

Removing cats to a test pipe will do a lot as well!

Don't these cars come with headers? I don't think I/E/T will give much more than 10-15 WHP MAX, probably less.

Yeah 10-15 at the most, most likely going to be more in the 6-10 whp range but honestly theres no way to know.

Aftermarket headers and testpipes will be considerably better than the factory headers that much im certain of.

i bet with just a tune, you could get 6-8 whp... I/H/E/T would put you around the 200whp mark easily...

It's time to give up the old stereotypes and join the 21st century, where smelling like hydrocarbons is not attractive, intelligent, or necessary. :paddle: Education time!

From the Grassroots Motorsports test on a Miata; stock vs. test-pipe vs. aftermarket high-flow cats.

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/9...stdynosqk2.jpg

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/1...resultszu5.jpg

Sigh. No 30whp gain like on my WRX from just a simple exhaust swap. :(

I'll hazard a guess [isn't that what we're all doing?] that since the engine is already 100HP/L, squeezing more out of it via natural aspiration won't be easy. I foresee a host of "intakes" actually losing power vs. stock.

I wouldn't have expected it to, but with the exorbitant prices manufacturers will want for a stainless steel pipe that has a catalytic converter welded in...it gets depressing.

Subaru intakes are generally well designed. WRX/STI intakes don't really need to be changed until 400whp unless you need the space. In addition, those cars have HOT underhood temps so anything other than a cold air is useless. I bet the stock intake here functions as a short ram as well, so unless you want to move the filter element into the wheel well, aftermarket intakes might not be awesome. We'll see what comes to market in just a few months though.

The real reason to go aftermarket intake on any stock twin, IMHO, is to get rid of the stupid sound pipe.

Should you just be able to cap that off and remove it. UNelss there is some kind of pulse effect in the intake tube it should be and easy removel. Save a little weight too.

LIke a couple people said above, I think it will be tough squeezing much horsepwer out of this while NA. I would guess less than 10 with simple bolt ons ans a tune.

It's a lot harder to squeeze horsepower out of an n/a than a turbo model, a looot harder. It's also more expensive, since you will end up doing cams, intake, exhaust, tuning to get +10-15hp, where you just need a reflash to get up to +30hp out of a turbo model.

And keep in mind that most n/a power upgrades work by simply move the power curve upwards to get those gains, which can impact driveability.

Regards,

Paul Hansen
www.avoturboworld.com
www.facebook.com/BRZSportsCarClub

Won't be much gains from an intake. The stock tube isn't very convoluted, and the airbox takes in air from the front of the car above the radiator, so it'll be clean, cool air while the car is moving.

I still think there are gains to be had by moving the first cat further down stream. And the second cat isn't worth keeping anyways since it isn't monitored.

I think I'd keep the precat since startup is when your car is coughing out the largest quantity of carcinogenic aromatic compounds, and it happens right in your driveway where it will linger...that's just me. Maybe if you want to get fancy you could do a bypass valve.

I'd say about 20hp MAX, especially with a tune. I'd like to see a rev limit raised to about 8k as well.

Not to mention a single exhaust plus a lighter header and simpler intake might save about 50+lbs.

I can't wait to see what the actual gains will be. :)

Not gonna happen with simple I/H/E. maybe cams & remap ECU. Mine only raise extra 250RPM in EJ25 (NA)

Unfortunately in California the only legal bolt-ons are a CARB legal intake (if available) and a catback below ~95 dB (forgot the exact amount). Headers, high flow cats, and testpipes are illegal, as well as non CARB legal intakes and loud exhausts :(

I'm thinking the FA20 is more like a high revving Honda engine than the EJ. With a reflash or hondata ECU you can raise the revs quite a bit on the K20 family anywhere from 300-600RPMs+.

Sure, any higher and you might want to get better valve retainers, and cams, though they usually aren't worth the cost and rougher drivability for what you'd get.

Them instead of K20, I would recommend comparing em w F20/F22 engine, cuz S2k owners (specially AP2) is having hard time squeezing extra RPM out of em

From what I've read, some AP2 owners have a limit of 8600 which is about 400RPM more. And that might be enough to make a bit more power in the FA.

But yeah mods wise, it's looking like the FA is more like the F20/22, in that it will be harder to get more HP out of them.

But...we won't really know until we get our hands on them. :)

they make about 172 whp stock so i/h/e may get you too 200 if lucky, but has anyone actually considered how are we suppose to tune this twin injector setup? its no walk in the park with direct injection... is cobb going to make a plug in for it?
cams and a intake manifold should do a lil justice.. hoping for 245whp n/a

But the FA20 is less rev friendly than the EJ which has a very short stroke :O
I have this bad feeling increasing revs is going to be a bit of a problem.

But it's going to have vastly superior combustion at high revs. Lots of engines with 86mm strokes will rev to mid 8k without bottom end issues. Valvetrain seems to be the weak link/fuse for rpm.

Guess we just need to wait for HomemadeWRX or someone who can get their hands on the engine to tell us the detailed specs...the short rods bother me quite a bit, the Honda motors are also 86x86 but they have much longer rods, and have those nifty dual cam profiles, whereas the FA20 will lose more and more bottom end as you push the power up (mild hybrid system? :D).

For outright power things aren't looking so good, but at least we have an updated efficient combustion chamber design.

Just keep in mind that 86x86 TRD BEAMS motor dyno plot I posted a while ago, which didn't have dual cam profiles either...

Yea, but that supports my point because the TRD 3S-GE has basically no low end torque at all. By 4000rpm you're already down to 160Nm which is pathetic, and I bet that the FA20 at idle is better than that TRD engine at 2000rpm.

Not saying I'd care though :) The top end is like a freaking Ferrari 458 cut in half.

I can't even find my own damn post that had the graph... :bonk:

But the low end penalty must always be paid for ridiculous top end power. (Hybrid-free, as nature intended, btw... heh...)

Something, something, no replacement for displacement... except a compact electric motor?

I spent several minutes finding it heh.
http://trdparts.jp/english/parts_engine-3s-ge.html

13.5 compression, that would definitely help at high rpm where the fuel doesn't have as much time to burn.
No replacement for displacement heh, I guess TRD proved that one wrong. A compact electric motor easily adds like 100Nm to the very bottom end, and it slowly tapers off but the gas engine comes alive as the rpms climb anyways. Cams and stuff can be done certainly, but I wonder how the intake tuning is done on these Subaru boxers since their configuration doesn't give options for shortening the intake runners. (I have no idea if they actually need to be shorter, but ITB trumpets are always short looking).

One day when I have a real job and a car, oh god so much money is going to go into my random ass ideas.

1: There is no replacement for displacement.

2. The short rods hampering the rev range only come into play when the rest of the engine dynamics can be accessed...

You can't look at a "estimated rod length" and stroke and say This engine can't make XXXXrpm reliably..Just doesn't work like that...

As it sits power production from fueling becomes an issue due to piston in cylinder speeds

we don't know the type of rod angles we're dealing with if it's working off of ej or fb architecture.....we don't know what kind of sideloads it'll have or if the pistons can deal with that type of constant G's due to lack of material etc etc etc

This is the problem with newer NA engines. It costs tons of money for only minor gains.

Of course, that's why I said we need to wait for more detailed specs. HomemadeWRX/3MI Racing already has rod specs apparently (but probably can't say), and may have offset already. However I'm just pointing out a few things about the engine that generally aren't good. The engine is very wide already so it can't really grow to accomodate longer rods or a more sophisticated valvetrain (no hope of variable lift or anything). At the same time we have a latest generation combustion chamber and fuel delivery design, which is nice.

I do believe in low levels of boost though.

That's why if you buy this car you have to be happy with the stock output or close to it or else you will beat yourself up in the long run. I would love to drive it just to see how it feels in comparison to my RSX acceleration wise since that is the main part of my RSX I dislike.

Was this sarcasm right? I can't tell.
The car has variable valve lift..

As a fellow RSX driver I think we'll be more than satisfied with the acceleration. Even though the RSX is rated at 139 lb-ft of torque, you don't get all of that to the wheels and not even until 5-6K RPM. With the FR-S we'll get around 145 at the wheels and at low RPM so it should be a huge difference. Especially for me since mine is not a Type S.

I have a base model too and the torque comes on earlier than the type S but it still feels kind of gutless still.

I think he meant a dual system similar to the Vtec in a Type S.

Please explain the variable valve lift on the FA20.

I look forward to his response with amused eyes. :popcorn: