Autocar: Ferrari F12 Berlinetta vs Toyota GT86 - which is more fun?
 

They're both handsome, reasonably practical cars. They both have an engine in the front sending power to the rear wheels. And while the Ferrari F12 Berlinetta will hit 211mph, the GT86 will 'only' reach 140mph. But the thing we're interested in is this: can a £240,000 supercar thrill its drivers on track more than a £25,000 Toyota? Matt Prior takes both to Snetterton to find out.


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTDtUG-rVfA"]Ferrari F12 Berlinetta vs Toyota GT86 - which is more fun? - YouTube[/ame]

Really? Really? Come on now. I get that they are comparing the relative value of the two cars(is the F12 worth 10x the price) but seriously, let not compare apples to alligators.

I'm secretly being proud of driving a car that's being compare to a similar car that costs 10X.:happyanim:

QFT
I understand that the FRS is the new kid on the block and all, but .. not the same league here, is it?

In other news, let's compare the 911 GT3 to the original VW beetle (hey, they're both rear engine, right?), and an MR2 to a Ferrari 458...

So silly. I'm not naive enough to think that if I had enough money to buy and maintain an F12 that I would pick a GT86 over it. I would, however take some petty cash out of the ol' "offshore accounts" to buy a GT86 if I felt like having a plaything to go along with my monster from Maranello.

Get both!! The option list on this F12 Berlinetta is enough for 2~3 GT86's.

http://jalopnik.com/ferrari-will-cha...upho-898949796

So the real question: Is a GT86 more fun than a F12 Berlinetta's cup holder, dash insert, rear bench trim and driver zone LEDs?

Its in the same league for most of us in that you can drive the wheels off your BRZ/FRS with a relatively low level of skill. Try that in an F12 and you'd better leave the electronics fully on.

Many, maybe even most people who would buy the F12 really cannot drive it.

These two cars compare exactly if the decision is to be made on fun to drive.

Make no mistake, the F12 is a monster car with capabilities beyond the skills of most of us. Just about anyone can drive the BRZ to and beyond its limits with very little experience of the car.

Now, you will very quickly want to fit better tires to your BRZ and shortly after that a supercharger (come ON Toyota you KNOW you have one that will work just fine, issue the kit for gosh sakes ).

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say here. You're saying they're in the same league as far as the "fun" factor goes, but you say the F12 (obviously) isn't as easy to drive?

I must admit I'm a bit confused

That being said, my point is: Comparing is about which is best in a certain category. I'm pretty sure everybody on this forum would still choose the F12 over the BRZ. I know I would.

..... they just making this to generate hits, don't fall for the trap.

i think everyone just feels that this car is comparable to anything on the market which is a compliment, even if it is a whole other league. Many manufacturers seem to feel a threat by this car underpowered humble presence that every car comparison is made up of cars with more way more hp

Agreed. I think it's a compliment. Keep it coming! Fun to see 2 great cars together. Don't be so insecure guys!

Even so, it's a glowing result for the Toyobaru

Funny story, I actually saw one of these yesterday. A very nice car!

I have had many nice cars but this BRZ is probably the most fun. It's such a well balanced car and even though the 0-60 time isnt great the car still can carry a ton of speed through turns and isnt bad from a roll. I love that its being compared to the F12. Who gives a shit if it cost 10x as much. This car offers bare bones rwd fun for 1/10th of the price, I would call that something to brag about.....

I traded in my 458 italia for my 86 based on fun factor

:sigh: its been done. the MR2 was compared with a Ferrari in period (I have at least one article)

I hope you got a decent deal and didn't pay too much extra to get into the 86 ;)

Strait swapped it dawg. At first they didnt want it because my Ferrari was IDM as F@%# but since the 86 isnt selling well they went for it. I even got em to throw in the trd body kit, the suckers.

:laughabove: Well done!!

for some reason I feel if I had a fucking f12 I wouldn't want people drinking inside of it for risks of spills on that fucking leather T_T

£240,000 would get you a GT86 (£25k) and another £25k would give you enough aftermarket goodies to get you round Snetterton as quick as the F12 Berlinetta.

On the street, 90% of the time, you're not going to be able to go any quicker or faster in the Ferrari. For that usage, I bet the 86 is more fun to drive in some fundamental ways than the F12.

My answer to the question which is more "fun" for me to drive is rather simple.

If the two cars have similar driving characteristics (discounting top speed which is only marginally interesting to me) the 86 will always be more fun to drive than the Ferrari.

Why, because I will be 10x more willing to push the FR-S around the track at its limits risking its bodywork.

This is independent of my personal wealth in relationship to the cost of the car.

I validate this (at least for myself) by looking at it backwards. If I had a $2,500 1985 MR2 and my $25,000 FR-S, I would be beat the crap out of the MR-2 on the track without concern (other than personal harm) of wrecking it. I know I'd keep more distance from the wall/track edge with the FR-S.

Just my warped way of looking at the world.

These kinds of comparisons are always really interesting to me. In terms of being driver's cars, the BRZ/FR-S do pretty much everything right. Balance, steering, handling, responsiveness, shifter feel, brake feel, and seating position. Those are the key elements, and the BRZ/FR-S/GT86 are nearly perfect in those areas.

But those things are much easier to get right when you're only dealing with 200 hp. That's why the BRZ/FR-S matches up so well against higher-priced machines in these kinds of "best driver's car" tests. And I suppose that was the philosophy behind the 86, that a minimalist driver's car with only 200 hp can be more enjoyable to drive than a massive-tired, 300+ hp machine. And I've found that to be the case from personal ownership experience (FR-S vs. STI).

But I'm not convinced the philosophy holds up when comparing against something like a 730 hp Ferrari because at some point, being a better driver's car may not be enough. On the whole, the GT86 might arguably match the Ferrari at being a driver's car (which would be quite an accomplishment for Ferrari considering its engineers had to deal with cranking out, managing, and slowing 730 hp), but fundamentally you can't ignore the 530 hp difference between the two. It's the massive pink elephant in the room that this test tries to ignore, and probably shouldn't. The brutal sensation of acceleration and the accompanying sound that the Ferrari makes has to count for something and, in all likelihood, should count for a whole lot.

It's why I think this test is flawed, and why no one in their right minds would take a GT86 over a Ferrari.

The only argument I can see for taking the GT86 as a track car is the cost of maintaining the Ferrari and the risk of putting it into a wall at the track. There's also possibly an argument that it's more fun wringing 100% out of a GT86 at the track vs. babying a 730 hp Ferrari (a case of too much horsepower), but I'm not sure how much merit that one has... and I probably won't know unless someone lets me cane a Ferrari around a track.

Anyway interesting test, but ultimately flawed IMO.

Didn't you just....?

As for the BRZ being good only because it is "underpowered" I think you'll find a good chassis is a good chassis pretty much regardless of engine power. Modern nutters running turbos and superchargers never complain that the chassis can't handle the extra power. They fit better tires and off they go in perfect control. Indeed, with a 2.5 turbo motor I think the BRZ could embarrass the F12 as it can any Porsche.

There is little doubt the F12 has far too much power to use in bends, as the video explains, whereas the BRZ can put almost all of its power down all of the time, assuming you fit proper tires.

Given the reality of street driving not having to slow down for bends is a big entertainment plus.

As for choosing a car to drive every day I think the BRZ beats the F12 again.

Ive never seen videos comparing the s2000 nor nissian Z series' to lotus', Ferraris or other cars costing at least 2x as much. Just sayin, there's something about this car that keeps people wanting to do comparison videos. Makes me pretty darn proud to own one lol

That's true to a point. But fit the FR-S/BRZ with 730 hp, plus the upgraded cooling, brakes, transmission, differential, bushings, suspension, and tires necessary to support that, and it'll be much, much harder to make it the driver's car that it is currently is.

This was one of the points the editors of MT brought up when they were doing the best driver's car competition of 2012. The BRZ was great and placed 4th (apparently Pobst wanted it as high as 2nd), but it only had 200 hp to manage. Yes the chassis could probably handle another 70-100 hp and maintain its current competence, but what about beyond that? Because that's really where the big dogs roam.

I think you just described the Venom GT. Lotus Exige with 1,000 bhp.....

I think you'll find the BRZ chassis design could handle 700+ bhp quite easily but by the time you upgrade all the bits to handle the forces involved you may as well buy the F12.


This illustrates the point neatly: does the unmodified BRZ make a more interesting car to drive then an unmodified F12?

If yes, then adding a bit more power could well make the BRZ even more appealing. I think for many of us a turbo or, better yet, a supercharger could well make a really good car even better. For some it would spoil the car.

I chose the BRZ over the Porsche Cayman for this reason. The BRZ was just better as a daily driver on real roads with real policemen and real traffic driven largely by incompetent drivers.

I happen to think the Cayman is the best sportscar money can buy at the moment, better than any Ferrari. But I prefer my BRZ by a large margin. Not because it is a better sportscar, it manifestly isn't, but because it is flat out more fun to drive every day. I will drive my BRZ anywhere, any time and in any weather. I will always leave it parked with a big smile on my face. It's that good.

Yeah I think just a bolt-on turbo or sc would be the sweet spot for this car, where you wouldn't need to start replacing expensive parts (internals, tranmission, differential), but it would still be entertaining in a straight line.

In a few years, I'll have to decide whether it's better to strap a turbo + supporting mods on my FR-S and make ~365 hp, or just buy a used C6 Z06.

FR-S: 2800 lbs / 365 hp = 7.7:1 lbs/hp
Z06: 3160 lbs / 505 hp = 6.3:1 lbs/hp

The Z06 wins the power-weight ratio, but the FR-S would probably have the better steering feel, transmission, seating position, and overall dimensions/weight. When you factor in reliability, I think the scale starts to tip heavily towards the Z06.

I actually mentioned this in another topic. Unless you regularly track your car, it's better to have a car you can actually "push" day to day. You'll actually enjoy it much more. Having a 730hp Ferrari is amazing....but you'd be able to use that 1% of the time.

I personally have a 450whp daily that I basically can't drive hard anywhere, especially with our crappy roads here in Montreal (tons of thaw and freezing during the winter). Other than the times I track it or take it to the drag strip, I'm cruising or driving in the city.

There's something to be said about a small, lightweight RWD that you can rip around in.

That may be true, but "ripping" a 450whp car VS ripping a small, lightweight, 160whp rwd FRS isn't the same, now is it?

To be honest, it's kind of lame to have a ton of power and not really get to push it often. Sometimes I prefer taking my gf's car and actually pushing. 160hp pushed can be pretty fun, there's something satisfying about it.

Now, the rare occasion when I do get to push my 450whp....:party0030:

haha okay if i had the money an frs would not even be an option.....f12 100%

Oh, that's funny. Delusional, perhaps, but funny. Just putting a 2.5 turbo motor in the BRZ wouldn't even make it come close to the F12 or the higher end Porsches. Its chassis (good though it is) isn't as good, the engine wouldn't be as good, the suspension isn't as good, and in general, it would still be worse than the higher end sports cars/exotics (unless you redid so much of the car that it basically wasn't the same car any more).

So don't push the pedal on the right down quite as much. The F12 still has more grip than the BRZ in every situation, and will be faster pretty much everywhere.

The F12 will take any corner just as fast or faster than the BRZ would, so this isn't a plus for the BRZ.

I would probably agree with this, but that's only due to financial considerations.


To be fair, it has a few other modifications too...

(I also haven't yet seen a pro review of one, so I think the jury is still out on how it feels to drive. I will admit though, I am curious)

I doubt very much that a BRZ would handle 700HP without a significant amount of chassis strengthening and stiffening, as well as new suspension (not to mention a new drivetrain - that goes without saying).

That's personal preference of course, but I think the F12 would be more interesting. You wouldn't be able to push it as much, obviously, but I think the Ferrari has an innate appeal that the BRZ can never match. As I said though, this one is definitely personal preference.

Yes, but power isn't the only thing that the Ferrari has over the BRZ. It's the whole package.

I happen to disagree, but you might have already guessed that.

I think the Cayman is an amazing sports car, don't get me wrong, but to call it better than any Ferrari is just delusional. There's nothing the Cayman does that a 458 doesn't do better, if we ignore cost/reliability concerns.

As for the later part of this paragraph? I've driven my Cayman in the rain, I've driven it in the fog, I've driven it on a dirt road, and I've even driven it on a slightly icy day once (which is absolutely terrifying on Pilot Super Sports, since they have zero ice grip). Every time (except maybe the time where it was icy and I wasn't expecting it), I leave my car with a smile. Do I do my best to minimize the risk to the car? Sure, but I enjoy driving it every day, and if I weren't going to enjoy driving it, then what was the point of getting it in the first place? If you wouldn't do this with a Cayman, then I agree you made the right choice, but it isn't the car's fault (nor should it be held as a point against the car) that you wouldn't feel comfortable daily driving it.

I have had a lot of powerful cars.

Boxster S
Nismo 350Z
STI
SRT8 Challenger (470hp)

I could only drive those cars around on streets at 20% throttle.

I had tracked my Challenger and it was AWESOME at 140 mph.
That being said...its was meh at 35 mph.

I do wayyyyy more driving in the 25-60 mph range than the 100mph range.

That is why my BRZ is more fun for me.
@chrisl

IMHO the best cars for me under 100k would be...(no particular order)

BRZ/FR-S
Lotus Exige/Elise
Porsche Cayman/Boxster S

I do buy into the being able to really push a car to its limits is fun.

Reality...the "limits" of a Cayman or Exige vs the twins isn't really that close. There is a reason the Cayman and Lotus cost so much more (and I agree...Cayman is awesome...we chatted about my Boxster...loved it...IMS failure thingy scared me out of enjoying it fully).

The Twins are amazing affordable sports cars.

But I do tire of people putting down more expensive cars because those aren't the cars that they own.

I was super close to buying a Cayman (IMS failure thingy scared me off) or Elise (British cars have notoriously bad electronics) instead of the BRZ. I just wanted a warranty.

I do not claim the BRZ is a better sportscar than a Cayman. I prefer the BRZ and, trust me, money was no object.

I do claim that the Cayman is a better sportscar than any Ferrari and I can defend that claim easily. Only a lunatic with money to burn would try to drive a Ferrari in winter here. I'd drive a Cayman (or indeed any Porsche as they are designed with winter driving in mind, the 911 probably being the second best sportscar money can buy, missing first only because they put the engine in the wrong place) year round, as indeed I intend to do with my BRZ.

End of argument.

Agree fully,

was a big factor in the purchase being in an area with tight windy roads where opening up on a regular basis just doesn't happen.

So, to be a good sports car, a car must be drivable in the winter? That's news to me...

(I guess an STi is the best sports car money can buy then, since it's a hoot in the snow)

:laughabove:

Those crazy Italians :bonk:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84V4X5OES0"]Driven: 2012 Ferrari FF - YouTube[/ame]