What Class do you think the Twins would go to for SP???
 

The Twins is not officially Classed in SP. What Class do you think it would go to?? I think it would go to DSP??? or CSP??? not sure as no one has built a NA motor on this thing yet. Thoughts??

Seems like a better match for DSP than CSP, but lack of update/backdate to take advantage of weight savings really hurt this car right now vs. the other cars in SP.

I wrote my letter asking for them to be classed in DSP and for the BRZ and FRS to be on the same line.

I think I am going to do SP next year depending on where it gets classed, or SM if I can't fight the desire for more power. Just getting tired of street tires.

understand.. Street tires are 'almost' as sticky as R'comps..;) but I am thinking the boosted route down the road.. SM is a nasty place for the twins to end up against some pretty formidable competition at a National Level for sure. However, R-comps are an interesting addition to a already awesome handling car.. it would need about 300whp to be competitive tho.. I think.. then theres the AERO aspect to think about also..:)

Bill

I'd assume DSP would be a better fit as well, but I'm unsure of how competitive the twins would be in SP trim.

I submitted a letter for DSP since my mods will force me out of STX. It was reviewed yesterday and will be sent to the Solo Events Board. I think CSP is a little ambitious.

So what are people thinking for wheel size and tires in SP?

I have seen pictures 285 Hoosiers on 18"x10s on this car, is that really doable?

A 275/35/17 Hoosier would work too I think

275's Definitely fit.. and 285/18's would be optimum.. with a MLA or Rocket Bunny2 Kit. Not sure how much more NA power can be extracted from the SP ruleset over the ST ruleset.. not alot more options there.. except the TB, inj. and Fuel System upgrade. I see 'Maybe' 205 NA Wheel Hp at best maybe .... Weight wise.. in SP trim it might loose another 50lbs??? over ST... but its offset with all the other allowable stuff in SP..

just thinking.....

Bill

I think with the rule change the biggest power gain will be from running e85 in SP which you wont be able to do in ST next year.

agreed....however I didn't run E85 all year.. 93 only, anticipating the no E85... My dyno numbers are 192/154...on 93.. however you can run C16 in SP..which may be worth a few ponies..

Bill

Preliminary : For Jan Fastrack.

Street Prepared
#10365 FRS/BRZ Classing Proposal
Per the SPAC, add the following listings in class C Street Prepared:
Scion
FR-S (2013-2014)
Subaru
BRZ (2013-2014

Street Prepared
#11722, 11866, 12411, 12427 FRS/BRZ Classing Proposal
Please see item #10365 elsewhere in these minutes

So.. whos up for a CSP build.. wow.. I really thought it would be a DSP Car.. but I guess others found that it could compete in CSP. We'll see

Bill

CSP should be interesting.

Difference in the fastest STX overall time and CSP overall time at nationals was 9.9 so roughly 5 seconds a day. I realize that even Andrew's car, who placed second and was the first 86 was far from maxed out. Seeing pictures of the car he had the stock battery, seats, and many other things not modified. I stopped putting money into the CSP car in 09 when everyone went to 275/15's, building VVT engines, etc. cause I couldn't justify the cost.

Assuming you take an STX car that has been maxed out to the rules how much time are you looking at with:
275/285 slicks with flairs
Removal of all the emissions equipment
Aftermarket flywheel
Front wing and rear lip spoiler
Radio and all the speakers
AC system
Non-airbag steering wheel

(for the really serious)
Intake manifold
Overbore
Mill heads

These all being the changes that would be able to be done beyond STX trim within SP guidelines that I can think. Besides the last but not least OIL COOLER that I wish they would just amend already so I don't have to make a sandwich plate with dry quick connect fittings that are $200 so I can install for NASA Time Trials and remove for Pro and Tour events :thumbdown:

No way in hell this car will compete with the Miatas in CSP. It weighs alot more (and has no provision for update/backdate to get the big weight reductions the Miatas get), is much wider, and we can't get much, if any more tire on the car than the Miatas do.

Sure, we can make more power, but in every other aspect, this is the inferior car.

I'm out of building a SP car if it is going to CSP. I just don't see it getting light enough in the ruleset to catch up with the tiny miata.

I also see they didn't write the rule with both on the same line, seems odd and not in line with historical examples of same "models" from different manufacturers.

Ah well, saves me some money next year. Until I end up in SM like always.

:hitcomputer:

Guess I'll be looking at options other than a BRZ after I've become bored in street.

Who in their right mind will dump SP money into building what really amounts to a not streetable car just for the purpose of trying to get it reclassed. :sigh: CSP miatas are typically faster on most courses than the boost buggies in ASP... and that includes people like Aaron Miller, Marshall Grice, and Tom Barry. No bleeping chance for the FR-S/BRZ.

Assuming it gets dropped from STX, you'll get E85. Or leaded race gas is an option... but that will only help so much.

Not that I had high hopes of building a Street Prepared car, but this recommendation doesn't make much sense to me. If the RX-8 is in CS and STX, why is it classed in DSP while the BRZ/FR-S is CSP? What do the twins have in Street Prepared trim that the RX-8 doesn't have?

I agree.. if its STX ..it should follow the rest of the STX class.. which is DSP.. However; I will put this out there.. The initial letter is the one the SPAC went off of.. which submitted a good 5-7 months prior to the other letters being submitted. to me it looks like someone "planned" it to be in CSP ...maybe to help the numbers??? There were a total of 5 letters that were submitted to class the twins in SP.. with the one being submitted WAY earlier, and thats the one the SPAC voted on, from my understanding... So it flounders in CSP for a year. I still don't think it can produce the power or get to the weight that some of the Bigboys think it can. they are projecting 2200lbs and 225whp in SP trim.. Don't see it.. Am I missing something???

Bill

:confused0068: well, I'm screwed lol

Agreed, I don't see it either. I'm not seeing how you could get to that weight in SP with these cars. 225whp may be possible. You made 192whp on 93 right? Who knows what E85 and C16 can do? :iono:

I think the CSP classing is really just to make sure it doesn't go into DSP and scare people away or be an overdog in the class. However it will keep anyone from actually building a CSP 86, at least for a few years. They did the same thing to the RX-8, it was in CSP for years no one ever competed in one so they recently moved it to DSP.

I don't see it being competitive against the CSP Miatas at all. IMHO it's going to be hard to get the cars under 2500lbs in CSP trim, it's not like there is a ton of weight to shed in addition to what you can already do in STX. All the stuff SubiePig mentioned is probably good for 50lbs, you could run some superlight seats and maybe get to 75lbs less than STX, and that puts you around 2500lbs.

Power wise if you were willing to do a fully built CSP motor maybe you end up at 210whp on E85 or race gas. 220whp I don't think is going to happen unless you are willing to wind the motor beyond what is safe.

It's still not going to compete with a tiny Miata weighing 1900-2000lbs and making 150-170whp... Slaloms and offsets are a huge part of autox and you can't ignore the length and width differences and the ability to carry speed.

yep.. But even with the Fuel allowance and the Fuel system upgrade in SP I don't know if you could get that number..

Agreed... I pretty much made the same comments to Bill and the others.. and got this as a response:

letters start the conversation only. There's nothing to say that the first letter was automatically given the most prominence. There are plenty of cases where the earliest letter is the one that is used as the "label" for a decision. That doesn't mean other letters are ignored, or that even the original earliest letter contained proposals that ended up being the core of what's being published here.

Hi Mike..:) .. I will go so far as to say, "The person that submitted it would likely be influential." from what I have heard.. :)

Bill

I'd just counter that this is a conversation starter. This is the first proposal for the SP classing, so it's would be very logical that you'd start the response from the first letter about the SP classing.

I just don't think there's too much to imply from the precise letter that is referenced when the Fasttrack puts things to comment.

More than this specific SP situation, I don't think it should be a reference point to some other proposal as to precisely which letter starts the fasttrack. In this case, sure, that first letter could very well be the most influential. It's just as likely coincidental than causal if you compare other proposals.


By the way I wouldn't say that I agree that Twins are competitive in CSP. But I completely understand the angle where they believe this to be in the best interests of the SP category.

Sux, but there's always STX to play with us freaks :)

AKA protect the grumpy old guys

ohhhh I agree.. I will play in STX for while and have NO plans to run SP any time soon. :)

Pretty much. Its still a business at certain levels.. so if one class is hurting for entries.. they will try to 'beef up' that class with a car 'close' to the specs.. At that level..there are ALOT of old-timers get their panties in a wad because alot of them can't handle change.

Bill

It's a touch more involved than that. It's the new car dominates, grumpy old guys flee the class, not all that many other also build said new dominating car...

Worst case scenario, the car is already faster in year 1 from 2 builds, 14 drivers ditch the class, now there are 8 drivers from 3 twins and the one RX-8 that still thinks it can develop more.

The Grumpy old men may be grumpy, and occasionally irrational, but there is also what faith there can be in National Twin SP builds. We have quite a few "class it and they will come" classes. SP as a whole is down. It's a s@*t situation.

No offense to the veterans but the whole rules system is setup that way.

Engine safety stuff is in sp or sm.
Drive shaft should be in STX.
Electric fans? Really
Stuff from the cars own tuning division putting you out of STX.



* opinion from several people who DD their cars and lightly mod them.

No way should they allow lightened driveshafts in STX. That's a high cost item that would be seen as a have to have mod and would drive the cost of being competitive up. Plus it would be an allowance that a FWD car could not get the same benefit from. Lightened flywheels and clutches aren't allowed in STX so why should a driveshaft be different?

As far as STi parts kicking you out of STX; those rules exist because if said parts were allowed, they would make the car more unstreetable or open up an allowance that people would be custom building parts for maximum advantage.

If you want to be competitive in a Solo class, build to those rules. If you want to mod your car however you want, do it and base your "competitiveness" on whatever class you want.

Aluminium DS is $450. Considerably cheaper than say light weight seats.

I'm talking about aero parts specifically. For instance BRZ is the same car as FRS. BRZ can run wing but not the TRD one FRS can use neither.

Also FWD really have no Drivetrain loss to speak of like RWD and AWD .

Your angle creeps into the "I" class type of thinking. The class has allowances, so how the mod affects *other* cars is also on the table. A Driveshaft for you and your car is not a drive shaft for a BMW, RX-8, etc. If you assume the rules have things stable today, and the Twin is equal to the ITR, your Driveshaft allowance improves your Twin while it can't improve the ITR.

The actual reason for limiting "tuner" division things is also because no two tuners are equal across car companies. Dealer-installed is a part that mucks up a lot as well. There are dealerships that have "tuner" specials with parts beyond that manufacturer's tuner division.


What the SCCA cares about (and should continue to care about) is how the cars compete based on the rules in place. A new rule should only foster a more equitable competition amongst the cars in the class, and mods that increase the cost to compete should be scrutinized severely.

Does anyone know if upgrading the OEM driveshaft to a solid aluminium driveshaft is allowable in SP?

nope....not legal... if you change it out...it goes to SM.. or some other Prepared class..not Street Prepared..

Bill

"Driveshaft" appears 19 times in the rules, replacement along with driveshaft doesn't happen until Prepared. The Update/Backdate rules are what some cars are utilizing when they do any Driveshaft changes, but obviously at that point we're still talking OEM or OEM-spec aftermarket for older out of production driveshafts.

SM is probably the ticket like Bill said. "D. Drivetrain and related components (induction, ignition, fuel systems,
etc.) are unrestricted except for the following limitations:", and none of the following paragraphs talk about driveshafts. Though Prepared allows for clearancing for fitment, and SM does not allow for much significant modification for that purpose.

Strange though that SM seems to imply you can change transmissions too. No "trans" specific language to limit that unrestricted drivetrain... Never thought about that part of the ruleset...

Bill, I'm glad you're staying with STX, but I'd love to see your version of an SM twin :)

If, in fact, I ever went SM..it would involve a twin-scroll, flares... and 315 A6's...;)

Bill

That with e85, lots of weight removal and spiffy CF parts is what I would like to do...but it probably still wouldn't be competitive against the monsters SM brings out these days.

^^^^ and this tooo ;)