Abbey Motorsport Sprintex SC updated Dyno plots
 

Been playing with our car again;

found some more BHP/Torque still running stock front cat in stock headers

using the FT20 club IAT kit but not the 3 bar map sensor.

I do have other idea's re IAT temperature compensation trims thou that I am working on at the moment.

HUB BHP add 40bhp to get a flywheel figure.

http://imageshack.us/a/img196/9503/y54s.jpg


thanks

Thanks for the info on the iat sensor, looks promising. Are you guys running an intercooled kit? Also, anyone on your side of the pond run an aquamist system on this car?

yes sorry running Sprintex IC kit , I am not a lover of water injection.

Glad to see the kit aide your tuning.

Nice figures. That is about what I achieved with water/meth injection so the IC is definitely the way to go. Much more reliable/safer.

What fuel?

I'd assume 98/99 RON here in the UK.

Temp log for you guys.

Not got a datalog from a NON IC car yet thou.


http://imageshack.us/a/img842/5896/ka68.jpg

Is that good or bad?

its very good I feel.

any guys running NON Intercooled kit got any datalogs with IAT's after the Charger they want to share.

Going on the dyno later today with the same IAT plate kit. Will let you know how it goes. (non-intercooled 70 mm pulley)

Any idea how fast those IAT temps come down after the pull? I am just trying to gauge how additional pulls afterwards would affect that IAT curve. I would love to see what temp it reaches for steady state and when steady state is reached but this would be best done on a road course.

when I get our car back on the dyno i will do some logs;

We have another idea re IAT's we are currently working on as well; Will use both the IAT in the stock MAF and a separate IAT in the IAT plate with an offset map in a extra race rom map.

How'd the IAT's look?

Didn't have time to play with the IAT plate kit this round. :( next time

IAT relocation kit installed and scaled. Interested in what people think... I am not convinced it is working as one might hope. I think it is measuring heat soak of the aluminum it is siting in not the temp of the air. I could be wrong though.

Here is throttle position vs. IAT over the course of 20 min commute with some WOT pulls n such thrown in. Intercooled.

http://imageshack.us/a/img41/446/8vwu.png

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/5060/ghxr.png

gaining 70f in one pull is a lot. it would seem like the intercooler isn't working at all.

below is a sample of a wot 3rd and 4th gear pull with my turbo/fmic, for comparison.

http://www.datazap.me/u/jamesm/turbo...sample?2-3-4-5

Where are you getting 70F? This is a 20 min drive not one pull. The green is throttle position. Red is IAT. There are multiple pulls there and the IAT goes from 20C to 45C (70F - 113F) over the course of the 20 mins.

See below for look at a series of WOT pulls. IAT post-blower should go up during WOT pulls where there is boost/air compression right? Nada. Something is up.

http://imageshack.us/a/img585/5060/ghxr.png

I was referring to the log posted by mark above, not yours.

It is a 25 sec long pull on a dyno and there is no heat detected till half way through at which point it starts ramping up. It is probably just detecting heat soak of the engine too like mine is. Total speculation though.

Keep in mind that car is on a dyno and mine is on the street. That engine will heat soak much more on a dyno.

Are you running a blow through MAF? Is your MAF/IAT unit post intercooler?

I just removed my IAT as I found a wire loose on the harness, I don't know for sure but I think the car is running better without the IAT.
And no it was not due to loose wire, I happened to clean intake and came loose when I pulled plug out.

Is your IAT reading from the airbox or is it relocated to the manifold (post-blower)?

The IAT sits on the manifold and the harness runs through and connects into MAF sensor.
Would this read post blower?

yes is it a blow-through maf... i never see more than 10deg over ambient ever. even after repeated runs to redline. it seems that the innovate unit is just too damn small to do the job, kinda like the old mazaspeed miatas intercooler. it's an interheater lol.

i guess the fact that it's on a dyno could effect it, but i don't think *that* much unless they have no fans at all... i mean the intake temp shot up 70+ degrees during the pull, that's no good.

You might be misunderstanding the points of my posts. I am not trying to elucidate the efficiency of the intercooler or the blower. I am trying to figure out if the IAT is reading the temp of the charge air correctly or if it is being overridden by the hot aluminum manifold it sits in. The data I have posted shows the latter where the sensor cares more about how long you have driven rather than how much boost/heat the supercharger is pumping out during WOT pulls.

If that is the case then any of your conclusions about how inefficient the intercooler is are invalid.

I don't know that I have seen a good picture of the IAT sensor, but I doubt it is reading the temp of the manifold and not the air. It isn't like a water temp or oil temp sensor where it is metal and relies on contact with the water/oil. It requires air to pass over it, so as long as it is in the airflow it should be measuring the correct temp and not the temp of the metal it is screwed into.

isn't it possible that the intake charge is just heat soaking more the longer you drive? your suspicion is that the sensor is reading incorrectly? personally, i think the hot aluminum manifold is probably just heat soaking the air your taking the temp of. but who knows...

Thanks. I'll take pictures of the sensor and the chamber in the manifold it sits in.
@moto-mike want to chime in?

so the issue here is that I'm guessing it is using a brass bodied IAT sensor, similar to a GM type. Until I see pictures I don't know for sure but based on a few datalogs I keep seeing the same thing. Note the attachment. This is a NON intercooled car, so temp changes will be even more abrupt than sw20kosh's.

You see several shorter WOT pulls, with barely any movement of the IAT. Only after a very long pull do you see the "IAT" climb up. Then it takes a VERY long time for it come down. This just isn't accurate to how the SC behaves. You should see spikes in temp with every application of the throttle lasting more than a second or two, but instead you see heatsoak.

I think the reason here is that the IAT sensor body is very heat conductive, sits in a heat conductive supercharger plenum, and probably gets more thermal conductivity through its body than it does from the charge air. To understand this you have to crack one of these guys open and compare to other IAT designs on OEM vehicles.

Most OEMs employ either a wire type element that is directly exposed to the air (i.e. inside the MAF). Some of the others, like the GM variants, use the bigger brass type sensor that is interchangeable with coolant sensors. Inside the brass is the same wire element surrounded in electrically insulated but heat conductive paste similar to what you put on CPUs. This transfers the heat to the wire. The caveat here is these metal sensors are put into polycarbonate intake tracts where the heat conduction is still from the air, or even metal intakes that are removed from engine heat. So that means it functions nearly as well (but more dampened) than the exposed wire sensors.

Now if you put one of these metal bodied sensors into the SC plenum such as here, with no isolation, you are going to capture more thermal transfer from the blower and engine than you will from the charge air.

Hope that explains it but the datalogs show the sensor works to measure temperature, might just be the wrong sensor for the application. Looks like bullet/sprintex did their homework on this by using the Bosch MAP sensor with IAT. That solves the problem as it employs a wire directly in the plastic MAP sensor.

http://www.fa20club.com/images/D/innovate%20iat.jpg
@King Tut

Picture of where it sits in the manifold tomorrow.

Unfortunately it is a nice and simple design but the sensor sits out side the direct air stream. There is a port that leads to it and it does give you a better idea of what is going on. It would be more effective to move the sensor into the direct air stream. I would recommend keeping the normal plate for the map sensor in place and drill and tap the manifold to put the sensor in after the blower / intercooler to get a more accurate reading. You can get a gm open element sensor kit with the connector for around 35 to 45 dollars, then just run 2 wires and and rescale the sensor settings in the ecu. You will see the sensor heat soak a bit sitting at lights or when you have shut the car off, such as running into the store and such. Heat soak will be much more pronounced when the vehicle sits not running as compared to sitting at idle. These are just my opinions from what I have seen on other platforms. For now on this is what I will be doing when I install one of these blowers though. There are other sensor options out there as well to look into that will work for this type of application.

I'm pretty sure that Mark@Abbey m/s has adapted the plate to take a sensor that sits into the air stream. That's what will be going on mine. I should be able to report back in the next month.

Would love more details on this Mark@abbey m/s!

Sorry for the delay in keeping this thread up to date;

Yes we have developed our own IAT kit that paces the Bosch fast acting sensor in the airflow;

Sensor and plate

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...540/ZQ6Erl.jpg

We have to modify the manifold to allow the Bosch sensor to put direct in the airflow

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...538/GWJOQW.jpg

we modify the loom to allow the IAT to be inputted on the normal IAT wire;

We have just done some more tuning on our Demo car , fitting a HKS manifold running no cats at all and a 69mm pulley , seeing some great numbers now;

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/102...661/fXwJgh.jpg

spent sometime on the dyno yesterday and I now can remove the dip totally in the torque/power curve.

Waiting for P tuning to hopefully ship me on there manifolds(headers) very soon.

Next mod will be water/methanol injection(I know I said I don't like it before) but I have spent sometime looking into it and I have a pretty trick idea to allow the car to be tuned nicely on the water/meth mixture.

Will keep this thread up to date.

thanks

Jesus, those are some incredible gains in the low end. The top end looks good to, BTW.

Do you have the IAT logs to show how the newly fitted sensor is working. Would love to see a multi pull session with the current set up. It is intercooled now, correct?

Thx

Now that is a proper IAT sensor... The fail FA20club sensor was for fluid. lol

Would be interesting to see logs of how it is detecting air temps during a wot pull.
@King Tut

I've had this sensor setup on for some time now, it works well. Plenty of log data of it on normal and fast driving. Shows how the manifold heat soaks after being stationary but also how quickly the temps drop once moving again.

@Kodename47

Please share some of these logs, preferably the hard driving ones. You got this from Abbey?

The FA20 IAT is a IAT sensor not a liquid sensor but I agree it doesn't get a good airflow over the sensor.

Our car is still running this sensor and the IAT temps do "hang" where as our sensor
set-up reacts quickly.

I will get some logs uploaded sometime over the next few days.

thanks

If you're replying to sw20kosh he was talking about a sensor that another vendor sold, they were called FA20club and........well they suck.